Considering adding a Leaf to our Tesla stable

Hey all, I need your help.

We are strongly considering adding a Leaf (2015SL), to our garage in the very near future.
Our electric drive experiences come from Teslas and a Volt.

We live in MN with winter temps ranging from -10 to 30.

My questions center on the winter ranges, charging behavior and such of the Leaf.
Our longest typical weekly drives are 50 miles.

Does the Leaf hold its charge well while parked outside for a few hours?

At what point is 110 charging sufficient to charge the car (I.e. Heating battery is no longer needed)?

I know leaving the SOC at 100% in hot weather has been damaging to packs, is the same true at cool, or cold temperatures to a lesser point, or not a problem at all?

With the Model S, I get more efficiency on highways than city streets.
While I understand that is opposite with the Leaf, are 40-50mph county roads better than city streets with lots of stops?

Any other points of wisdom for a newbie Leaf driver?

Many thanks!

I don't think 120V charging parked outside will be sufficient for a 50 mile trip in a Minnesota winter, unless you have a solid 14 hours or so every day to be plugged in. Your battery is going to get very very cold when the temperature inevitably stays below 0F for an entire week. You might make it through the first winter, but winter 2 or 3 (depending on how long you are keeping the car) will become very difficult. I would put the winter range of my 19 month old 2013 SL with 18k miles to be about 55 miles or so, but it doesn't get far below 32F very often here in Atlanta.

When you do need to make those 50 mile trips, you will get significantly better range driving a constant 45-55mph compared to 65mph+ freeway speeds. Stop and go city driving will be worse than the constant 45mph, but not as bad as going 65.

I have a 30amp 240V EVSE for my LEAF that will be for our future LEAF as well once this one's lease is over and I will be adding a HPWC using 40 amps for our Model X once it finally arrives. I could probably get by with 120V charging for the LEAF, but since I already have the J1772 EVSE and I don't really want to use it for the Tesla, I think it will be more convenient to add the HPWC and have 240V charging for both.

The Leaf gets best range at roughly 12MPH. Stop and go is no problem. I can get 100 mile range with my Leaf if I always take back roads which keeps me under 45MPH.

For more discussion, see:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bob

Bob said:

The Leaf gets best range at roughly 12MPH. Stop and go is no problem. I can get 100 mile range with
Bob

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Do you really find that true in winter? My experience is that in winter the regen is almost non-existent so the "stops" come at a higher cost. In addition, I tend to need to use some energy for heated seat and/or the defrost which at slower speeds is a higher cost/mile (i.e. burning 4Kw for heat going 60mph costs me about 1kwh/15 miles, vs if I only go 12MPH that would be over 4Kwh used to heat for less distance).

Summer I would agree - stop and go is a non-issue to perhaps benefit for range vs highway.

The Leaf would make an excellent complement to the Tesla and Volt, even in MN. For short, in-town, trips, the Leaf is really perfect especially because it has essentially zero "phantom draw" (except at very low temps a small warmer will turn on). Both the Tesla and Volt have battery heating/cooling that consume much more energy, even while not being driven. I've seen reports that the Tesla can consume 5 mi or range just sitting for the day (that's my one-way distance to work ). That said, the Leaf's biggest drawback is range, and especially at low temps (6 months in MN). It drives just fine in the cold weather (see reports from other MN, Norway, & Canadian users), only the range can be reduced to as little as 20 mi. Some users have gone as far as sticking heaters under the car to warm the battery during extreme cold. My recommendation is to just switch to the other vehicle during those extra cold, long trips. Otherwise, just use the Leaf for everything that you can. The Tesla is less "efficient" and in-town trips will use more energy than either the Leaf or Volt. The Leaf has a bit more space than the Volt, so it might be best for grocery-shopping trips.

Edit: L1 charging is just fine if you have the time (12-16 hr overnight) but getting 50 mi every day especially in winter will be very difficult. If pre-heating, L1 is pretty pathetic below about 20 F, especially on the 2011 Leaf (maybe better on the 2015 with heat pump). Since you have a Tesla, I'm assuming that you have a garage. If not, or if the Leaf will be stored outside, you will have even more problems, since the battery will get very cold. I would recommend keeping the Leaf in a warm garage, if not, then L1 charging is probably best since it will keep the battery a bit warmer. At extremely cold temps, some Norway users have reported L2 charging slows down significantly and takes 20 hours anyway. In any case, pre-heating outside below 0 F with L1 will be essentially worthless.

We have a 6 month old 2013 and I would not go more than 50 miles on a full charge when it's about 0F outside, and that is even with the very low cabin heat use. I would say 40 miles is more realistic with comfortable heating and clear roads. With new 2+" of new snow drop all that by 10 or more miles. The thing is if you get stuck at work and have to drive home at 0F for 20 miles and it snowing a lot you will use a LOT more energy than taking the same trip on dry, salt soaked pavement.

As far as the 120 L1 charging, as others have mentioned you can if you have the time, but with L2 you can pre-heat the cabin and that helps a LOT with trips on both the comfort and range issues.

Reddy said:

The Leaf would make an excellent complement to the Tesla and Volt, even in MN...

Edit: L1 charging is just fine if you have the time (12-16 hr overnight) but getting 50 mi every day especially in winter will be very difficult. If pre-heating, L1 is pretty pathetic below about 20 F, especially on the 2011 Leaf (maybe better on the 2015 with heat pump). Since you have a Tesla, I'm assuming that you have a garage. If not, or if the Leaf will be stored outside, you will have even more problems, since the battery will get very cold. I would recommend keeping the Leaf in a warm garage, if not, then L1 charging is probably best since it will keep the battery a bit warmer. At extremely cold temps, some Norway users have reported L2 charging slows down significantly and takes 20 hours anyway. In any case, pre-heating outside below 0 F with L1 will be essentially worthless.

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Definately, that is why we are considering one

Thanks very much for the numbers and suggestions. That is exactly what I am looking for.

So without active heating, how much of a hit does the Leaf take as it warms up the battery pack? Say, after being unplugged, parked at work for the day?

I wanted to add a Tesla to my Leaf stable, but then I realized I was poor.

L-1 charging has the advantage of keeping the pack warm as the car slowly charges. Not *really* warm, but warm enough. I live in Upstate NY, and while it isn't as cold here as in MN, it gets into single digits regularly, and I've driven my Leaf in below 0 F temps, with wind. My Leaf also sits outside virtually all the time, exposed to North and West winds. Even so, the battery heater rarely comes on, first because it has to get and stay below zero for quite a while for that to be likely to happen, and second because I try to have the car charging when it does.

The best way to improve the car's range for short trips in frigid temps is to insulate the heating system as much as possible, to retain heat while stopped in town. I think Nissan no longer 'leaves the pipes bare' as they originally did, but there is still room for improvement. There are one or two topics here on that.

Slow1 said:

Bob said:

The Leaf gets best range at roughly 12MPH. Stop and go is no problem. I can get 100 mile range with
Bob

Click to expand...

Do you really find that true in winter? My experience is that in winter the regen is almost non-existent so the "stops" come at a higher cost. In addition, I tend to need to use some energy for heated seat and/or the defrost which at slower speeds is a higher cost/mile (i.e. burning 4Kw for heat going 60mph costs me about 1kwh/15 miles, vs if I only go 12MPH that would be over 4Kwh used to heat for less distance).

Summer I would agree - stop and go is a non-issue to perhaps benefit for range vs highway.

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That is steady speed... therefore no regen. Regen is ALWAYS less efficient than not using the energy at all. Rolling to every stop sign is more efficient, without brakes.

The only time regen will increase your range over the best driving methods without regen is at a downhill stop or slow down, where the only choice is regen or brakes.

Zythryn said:

... without active heating, how much of a hit does the Leaf take as it warms up the battery pack? Say, after being unplugged, parked at work for the day?

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Enterprising cold weather LEAF drivers put those livestock tank silicon pad heaters on the metal bottom of the LEAF battery. Instead of using the pathetic 120 volt J1772 to "warm" the battery, use 120 volts to REALLY warm the battery.

You can pack some insulation around the battery, too, and over the heating pads. Don't let the battery get over 100F.

One last consideration: if you plan to leave your new Leaf plugged into an EVSE for long periods when it isn't charging, you'll have to connect a battery maintainer as well. Nissan screwed up there, because the car will drain the accessory battery if left connected but not charging for long periods. I used a hardwired connection to the battery (+) and inverter housing (-), and extended the cable so it will terminate inside the charging port. This lets me connect the maintainer with only the charge port open.

LeftieBiker said:

One last consideration: if you plan to leave your new Leaf plugged into an EVSE for long periods when it isn't charging, you'll have to connect a battery maintainer as well. Nissan screwed up there, because the car will drain the accessory battery if left connected but not charging for long periods. I used a hardwired connection to the battery (+) and inverter housing (-), and extended the cable so it will terminate inside the charging port. This lets me connect the maintainer with only the charge port open.

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Please tell me that is a joke, or I am misunderstanding you??
What consists of a "long period" of time?

My driving habits are sporadic, and we may go a day or two without driving the LEAF.

Zythryn said:

LeftieBiker said:

One last consideration: if you plan to leave your new Leaf plugged into an EVSE for long periods when it isn't charging, you'll have to connect a battery maintainer as well. Nissan screwed up there, because the car will drain the accessory battery if left connected but not charging for long periods. I used a hardwired connection to the battery (+) and inverter housing (-), and extended the cable so it will terminate inside the charging port. This lets me connect the maintainer with only the charge port open.

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Please tell me that is a joke, or I am misunderstanding you??
What consists of a "long period" of time?

My driving habits are sporadic, and we may go a day or two without driving the LEAF.

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Not a problem for a day or two. This is more for >2 week vacation. The 12V battery gets drained because the CarWings keeps calling back to the mother ship. There are several threads on this, but the bottom line, it's like the Tesla's vampire drain, but only when plugged in and NOT charging. Most of us have never had a problem, but similar to Tesla's 12 V battery, some are working just fine, but others need to be replaced.

TonyWilliams said:

Zythryn said:

... without active heating, how much of a hit does the Leaf take as it warms up the battery pack? Say, after being unplugged, parked at work for the day?

Click to expand...

Enterprising cold weather LEAF drivers put those livestock tank silicon pad heaters on the metal bottom of the LEAF battery. Instead of using the pathetic 120 volt J1772 to "warm" the battery, use 120 volts to REALLY warm the battery.

You can pack some insulation around the battery, too, and over the heating pads. Don't let the battery get over 100F.

Click to expand...

Here are some threads on this:
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&p=255938#p255938
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13712&p=312901&hilit=cold#p312901
Heat Pads: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17068&hilit=+cold#p372672
Range: http://www.greencarreports.com/news...olt-range-loss-in-winter-new-data-from-canada

Oh, many of us wish it *were* a joke, but no. The car continually checks to see if you've unplugged the EVSE yet, and this drains the accessory battery. Your choices are to either unplug the EVSE within a couple of hours of charging ending, or using a maintainer to keep the battery up. Since the charging algorithm for the accessory battery is poorly done, and since you plan to use the car for lots of short trips, I suggest the maintainer. It is nice to know that it's snowing out and 9 degrees with the car plugged in, but I don't have to go unplug it anymore. A side benefit is it will also power the battery heater, at least indirectly.

One slip:

Not a problem for a day or two. This is more for >2 week vacation.

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Don't bet on that, especially in cold weather. I wouldn't leave it plugged in and not charging for more than half a day in frigid weather.

Any particular reason the OP is only considering a LEAF? I'd think a car that has a real battery TMS, like an FFE, would be more suitable in MN. Granted, it doesn't have QC, but with a Tesla and a Volt for longer trips, why would you care? In fact, I'd look at any of the BEVs that heat their battery not just to keep it from freezing, but also to maintain capacity in cold, in preference to the LEAF. Of course, many of them aren't available in MN, but the FFE should be (with some looking, maybe).

GRA said:

Any particular reason the OP is only considering a LEAF? I'd think a car that has a real battery TMS, like an FFE, would be more suitable in MN. Granted, it doesn't have QC, but with a Tesla and a Volt for longer trips, why would you care? In fact, I'd look at any of the BEVs that heat their battery not just to keep it from freezing, but also to maintain capacity in cold, in preference to the LEAF. Of course, many of them aren't available in MN, but the FFE should be (with some looking, maybe).

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Hmmm, not finding the FFE in the area although I will keep looking.
We had a Volt, don't have it anymore.
Basically, we are down to one car (our Tesla) and are looking for a second.
Most likely a three year lease to tide us over until the next generations are widely available.

The Tesla meets our needs for range. We are also moving closer to the center of the metro area, making most all of our local trips doable, winter or summer, in the Leaf.
We actually can use the QC as we have a few in the Minneapolis Metro area now.
And frankly, I would rather have a Leaf, than a Tesla if it meets my needs.

This draining of the battery concerns me greatly though. The Tesla would still be our primary car, so the Leaf would be used sporadically and not on a set schedule. A battery minder seems to be an unnecessary hassle. I'm really quite surprised at this after the Leaf has been on the market for 4 years.

I'll read up on the links listed above. Thanks again all.

The simplest solution (although it's just a band-aid) would be to install a larger, AGM-type battery, or even a lithium replacement. Then it would be up to the gods whether or not the car could keep it well enough charged to avoid any problems related to leaving the car plugged in but not charging for medium-length periods. At least you'd have more capacity to work with, and a battery less likely to be ruined by chronic under-charging. You could also use a maintainer or external charger less often, at more convenient times, to top it off. Given the experience of people here, you could also likely avoid the problem altogether, by not leaving it plugged in for long after charging.

LeftieBiker said:

The simplest solution (although it's just a band-aid) would be to install a larger, AGM-type battery, or even a lithium replacement. Then it would be up to the gods whether or not the car could keep it well enough charged to avoid any problems related to leaving the car plugged in but not charging for medium-length periods. At least you'd have more capacity to work with, and a battery less likely to be ruined by chronic under-charging. You could also use a maintainer or external charger less often, at more convenient times, to top it off. Given the experience of people here, you could also likely avoid the problem altogether, by not leaving it plugged in for long after charging.

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After doing some reading, it seems the 2011-2012s didn't experience this and that the 2013s bore the brunt of this as they had two issues. A bad batch of batteries, and a shift to low quality batteries.

Did the 2014s or 2015s start fixing this?