Considering adding a Leaf to our Tesla stable

[LeftieBiker]

It seems more likely that the marginal batteries in the 2013 just made obvious an underlying problem that is usually brought to light only when the car is left plugged in for longer periods, or driven on lots of short trips. I'm fairly sure I've read posts from drivers of gen 1 leafs with the same issue. Also, I had the issue with mine over a year ago, and the battery has been fine ever since with the maintainer in use. Bad batteries don't usually last that long after being drained even once.

 

[thankyouOB]

I wanted to add a Tesla to my Leaf stable, but then I realized I was poor.

heh.
definitely, heh.

 

[TimLee]

After doing some reading, it seems the 2011-2012s didn't experience this and that the 2013s bore the brunt of this as they had two issues. A bad batch of batteries, and a shift to low quality batteries.

Did the 2014s or 2015s start fixing this?

No.

There did appear to be some bad 2013 batteries, and a few had vampire drain issues that were not solved.
But does not appear Nissan did anything to resolve 12V charging issues.
But many reporting similar issues on Prius.

On the getting a LEAF as a second car, not a bad idea as long as you understand the very short range in cold weather.

You have been used to no range limitation with a Volt, and not much limitation unless you are doing inter city driving with the Tesla.

In cold weather if you expect cabin heat the LEAF is more like 30 to 35 miles.
If you drive slow and are careful, maybe 40.

The SV or SL with heat pump is much more efficient down to 4F, and has quite a bit more range above 15F to 20F.
But below 15F, LEAF is very short range local car.

If you understand and accept that, Great :!:
But that is not what you have gotten used to.

 

[Zythryn]

...

On the getting a LEAF as a second car, not a bad idea as long as you understand the very short range in cold weather.

You have been used to no range limitation with a Volt, and not much limitation unless you are doing inter city driving with the Tesla.

In cold weather if you expect cabin heat the LEAF is more like 30 to 35 miles.
If you drive slow and are careful, maybe 40.

The SV or SL with heat pump is much more efficient down to 4F, and has quite a bit more range above 15F to 20F.
But below 15F, LEAF is very short range local car.

If you understand and accept that, Great :!:
But that is not what you have gotten used to.

Thanks for the wise advice.
We have been following the Leaf closely since it was first announce and have been all electric since we sold the Volt almost two years ago.
I'm very familiar with our daily drive ranges and the general affect of winter on EVs.
I'm just trying to get a good handle on the nuances of the Leaf.

The end of this winter is our tough part. Next winter most of our trips will max out around 30-40 miles (round trip). Currently many average out in the 50-70 miles.range, which is why we went with Tesla rather than the Leaf to start with.

We also have a half dozen quick chargers which add a nice safety net.

I'll be talking with the dealer about the 12v battery quality and may just preemptively upgrade that to a better one if they are still using the Johnson Controls battery.

i very, very much appreciate everyone's input, it is very helpful!

 

[TonyWilliams]

The simplest solution (although it's just a band-aid) would be to install a larger, AGM-type battery, or even a lithium replacement. Then it would be up to the gods whether or not the car could keep it well enough charged to avoid any problems related to leaving the car plugged in but not charging for medium-length periods. At least you'd have more capacity to work with, and a battery less likely to be ruined by chronic under-charging. You could also use a maintainer or external charger less often, at more convenient times, to top it off. Given the experience of people here, you could also likely avoid the problem altogether, by not leaving it plugged in for long after charging.

After doing some reading, it seems the 2011-2012s didn't experience this and that the 2013s bore the brunt of this as they had two issues. A bad batch of batteries, and a shift to low quality batteries.

Did the 2014s or 2015s start fixing this?

2011-2012 absolutely experienced drained 12 volts when plugged in, and even when not plugged in. Just putting in a different 12 volt won't solve the real problem. Either connect a battery tender (super easy if you plug it in like the J1772 plug) or disconnect the 12 volt for extended parking (over a week).

A bigger capacity battery and a tender is the best overall "fix". Also, a "real" solar charger for the 12 volt will be great for summer.

 

[dgpcolorado]

You asked for nuances so... Unlike with the Tesla there is no need to leave the LEAF plugged-in if you aren't going to be using it for awhile. If you plan to use it the next day plug it in and let it charge.

The "nuance" is this: in extremely cold weather (below 0ºF for an extended period) the battery heater will come on if the battery gets down to ~-1ºF or so. That will work unplugged down to about 30% SOC, according to the manual. But in such cases it would be better to leave the car plugged-in. However, if the car is being driven or charged the battery will usually be somewhat to considerably warmer than ambient temperature, so the car would have to stay at subzero temperatures unused for a day or more to get the battery down that cold (and, clearly, it would drop faster in -20ºF weather than in -5ºF weather).

Also, do you plan to garage the car? (Your post suggests that you do.) is the garage attached? Attached garages often keep much warmer than outside temperature in cold weather. If a LEAF is kept in a "warm" garage, the battery will have better cold weather capacity (range), and there won't be any vampire loads causing loss of charge as with the Tesla TMS. It also likely won't need the battery heater. But if you park outside, you may want to plug-in the LEAF when the weather is below zero even if you don't plan to drive it the next day.

FWIW.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The SV or SL with heat pump is much more efficient down to 4F, and has quite a bit more range above 15F to 20F.

Not exactly. My experience when commuting last Winter (and shared by others) was that about 14F is the cutoff between noticing a difference in range or not between heatpump-equipped models and the S or Gen 1 models. 23 or 24F if the cutoff between really noticing it or not. The heat pump may work down to 4F but it isn't contributing a lot of heat at that temp. Above freezing and it's more like driving with the A/C on in Summer, range-wise.

 

[Leafer77]

I'm just over 62,000 miles, with just over 3 1/2 years, and I barely can get 45 miles. That's with minimal usage of the A/C, highway driving at 65 MPH, and mostly flat terrain. Sunny San Diego, so condition's are ideal.

I think you'll start off fine with a Leaf, but after a certain amount of mileage or year's, you may find the cars range prohibitive.

 

[rcyoder]

I have a 2011 Leaf with only 27K miles on it. Today it is 72-75 degrees and clear here in Southern California, I drove it 55.8 miles (42 or so miles on the freeway at a steady 62 MPH) on a 100% charge. The range guestimator says 9 miles to empty, and I have the last two bars left. I'm missing the top two bars of charge.

When it was *FREEZING COLD* (that's what we call 45 degrees here in So. Cal), making a 50 mile trip on a 100% charge over mostly the same route was a white knuckle experience.

Usually when the trip will be over 45 miles, I borrow my wife's Toyesla (2013 RAV4-EV) and don't worry about range - but for some reason she won't let me have it all that much... Too bad that Toyota has stopped building the RAV4-EV.

If you are able to swap cars and take the Tesla on the 50 mile trips in the winter, I'd say go for it. The Leaf is an excellent vehicle for the shorter trips.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Keep in mind that both of the above drivers have 2011 Leafs, with the worst battery chemistry. The 2015 and up Leaf has a more durable battery, and even the 2013 seems to be better than the first generation.

 

[GRA]

Keep in mind that both of the above drivers have 2011 Leafs, with the worst battery chemistry. The 2015 and up Leaf has a more durable battery, and even the 2013 seems to be better than the first generation.

While we all hope the bolded part is true, we don't have data to support it yet, as none of them has experienced more than 1 summer. All we have is Nissan saying something like the battery is 'intended' to improve its life in hot climates. Given how wrong their past battery longevity claims were, very few people are willing to take them at their word this time around.

 

[Reddy]

Remember, that the OP is in MN and would likely lease a new 2015, so very little heat-induced battery degradation. Instead, there will be cold-induced range reduction. Given that, I would be very comfortable recommending leasing the Leaf, especially assuming less than 50 mi range need, and another longer range vehicle in the household. I would say L2 charging and a garage are mandatory as well, especially in MN, but I think the OP already has that covered. Having the QC package would be a plus, especially if there are any stations nearby. Yes, there are other EV choices out there and they may work as well (if available in MN). The Leaf is a good, solid EV but not necessarily perfect for everyone or every use. Heck, I've done two 800+ mi trips in mine, which was fun as a vacation, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a road trip vehicle.

Edit: Dead 12 V battery threads:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14747&p=333143&hilit=+vacation#p333143
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14190&p=322822&hilit=+vacation#p322822
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12216&p=281309&hilit=+vacation#p281309

 

[TonyWilliams]

There are some REALLY good deals on the Mercedes B-Class ED with Tesla Model S drivetrain.

113 miles at a full "extended" charge at 62mph. Full Tesla battery management. J1772 port. It is a big step up from a LEAF.

We can even modify your existing Tesla UMC to power the Mercedes at the full 40 amps:

http://shop.quickchargepower.com/Service-Conversion-of-Tesla-UMC-to-JESLA-w-50-amp-J1772-plug-UMC2JESLA.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Leafer77]

Keep in mind that both of the above drivers have 2011 Leafs, with the worst battery chemistry. The 2015 and up Leaf has a more durable battery, and even the 2013 seems to be better than the first generation.

While we all hope the bolded part is true, we don't have data to support it yet, as none of them has experienced more than 1 summer. All we have is Nissan saying something like the battery is 'intended' to improve its life in hot climates. Given how wrong their past battery longevity claims were, very few people are willing to take them at their word this time around.

I was thinking the same thing when I read his post. I've learned my lesson, and I'd wait until there is actual data before making such a claim.

 

[Zythryn]

There are some REALLY good deals on the Mercedes B-Class ED with Tesla Model S drivetrain...

Thanks Tony.
That was one of the first ones we looked at.
It costs a bit more than we wanted, however the biggest factor was the fact that according to the epa it is actualy LESS efficient than the 85kWh Model S.

As of this summer we will no longer need the longer range the Tesla provides in both of our cars, so efficiency became a hitcherhiker priority. The i3 was close, but frankly it costs too much, and the half dozen quick chargers in our metro area gives the Leaf the edge.

We have picked up our new 2015 SV Leaf today!
I want to thank everyone for their suggestions and data points. It has been very helpful.
Our JuiceBox is on its way and Wattson will sip on 110 in our insulated garage until the Juicebox arrives.

I must say, I absolutely love the 360 degree camera views and the color coded backup lines.
And I have a much better understanding of why people call it the GOM

 

[Reddy]

Congratulations! At least we have one sale for Jan. Now if we can just get the sales numbers up over 3000 for the month.

 

[Zythryn]

Congratulations! At least we have one sale for Jan. Now if we can just get the sales numbers up over 3000 for the month.

Thanks!
I'm looking forward to trying my first CHAdeMO charger on Saturday

As for sales... well, three actually.
Two others were sold the same day by the same sales rep.
Both happened to be from references from Leaf owners that I know

 

[LeftieBiker]

I was thinking the same thing when I read his post. I've learned my lesson, and I'd wait until there is actual data before making such a claim.

I can understand how you feel, with you owning a 2011, but we know they have changed the battery chemistry in some unspecified way, and there are numerous real-world reports of even the 2013 having less degradation (measured as capacity loss) at this point than the first generation. What really remains to be seen is just how resistant the newer batteries are to long-term degradation both from age and from heat. It does seem safe to say, though, that a 2015 battery is a real improvement over a 2011-2012.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I was thinking the same thing when I read his post. I've learned my lesson, and I'd wait until there is actual data before making such a claim.

I can understand how you feel, with you owning a 2011, but we know they have changed the battery chemistry in some unspecified way, and there are numerous real-world reports of even the 2013 having less degradation (measured as capacity loss) at this point than the first generation. What really remains to be seen is just how resistant the newer batteries are to long-term degradation both from age and from heat. It does seem safe to say, though, that a 2015 battery is a real improvement over a 2011-2012.

IMHO, this battery issues seems to be a result of rushing the 2011/2012 to market. Nissan seems to have pushed their engineers to finish a design in time to beat the Volt. The battery wasn't ready. The electronics stack wasn't ready (hence the bump in the trunk with things like a COTS charger). The heat pump wasn't ready. But they pushed and released the first car in 2010, just ever so slightly ahead of the Volt (2 days IIRC).

I do feel for those in hot climates who suffered the brunt of degradation. And it obviously has left a lasting stain on the Leaf's reputation. Nissan's guarded wording of the new lizard battery's durability is understandable. They were obviously too liberal with the first iteration. I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Time will tell, but so far so good for 2013s and on.

 

[RegGuheert]

We have picked up our new 2015 SV Leaf today!

Congratulations!

I find that rather amazing after you have read all of our negative comments about the LEAF for so many years!