Totally done with public charging.

I know, I know. Everyone else was done ages ago. But, up here in the PNW we've had really reliable public charging for a few years, so I've actually been using my Leaf for road trips. Lately, though, it's been getting really hard despite stellar reliability of chargers.

For example: yesterday I pull up to the charger in Woodburn, OR. There's a guy there charging already, but he's at 75%, so it's all good, I think. I politely ask him what he's going to and he says, "I need as much as I can get because I'm going to Portland." That's code to "going to 100%", of course. The best part is that Portland was 30 miles away! I've done that stretch from 50% in my 3-year-old Leaf a dozen times!

When I first bought my Leaf, I was an early adopter and so was everyone else. But now, there's just too many people out there who have no idea how their cars work. I'm about 100% sure that my next car is going to have a gasoline engine. It'll have a plug too, but I want that engine!

we only have a few here in Tulsa and I've yet to have another car at one yet!

The real issue here is that, in most locations, there's only one CHAdeMO QC unit, thus greatly increasing the odds of contention even with relatively modest usage. This is why Tesla Motors planned the Supercharger network with multiple chargers per location from the outset, even in the early days with not many Model S cars on the roads. While in the very busiest locations people sometimes have to wait for Supercharger, this is not the norm across their network. Further, Tesla continues to add chargers where warranted. This is what's missing with the other charging networks.

EVs are definitely going to be a victim of their own success, as far as public charging is concerned. Then it will take some additional time for a critical mass of owners to accumulate to the point where more infrastructure is developed. And probably another wave or two after that before the infrastructure is market-driven rather than government-sponsored.

The added complexity is the evolution and improvement of battery tech. At a certain point, L2 "opportunity charging" becomes less necessary, less-used and less wanted. Quick-charging then becomes the sought infrastructure for long trips and for those who don't have charging opportunities at their residence. Public L2 stations will fade away from neglect and lack of will to maintain under-utilized infrastructure.

There will still be a challenge to delivery with QC, as even the current Tesla Supercharge stations can only dispense a small percent of "miles per hour" compared to a gasoline station. The energy dispensed by a busy gasoline station is huge.

Nubo said:

At a certain point, L2 "opportunity charging" becomes less necessary, less-used and less wanted. Quick-charging then becomes the sought infrastructure for long trips and for those who don't have charging opportunities at their residence. Public L2 stations will fade away from neglect and lack of will to maintain under-utilized infrastructure.

Click to expand...

Yet, we still have no PHEVs in the US w/ANY DC FC capability.

There are many BEVs running around that have DC FC as an option, but the buyer/lessee elected not to go for it (e.g. me).

Then there are others where it's not even an option. In going thru the list of BEVs at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/, the BEVs from these brands don't offer it as an option in the US: Fiat, Mercedes, Ford.

Then, there's the fragmentation issue where BMW, VW and Chevy decided to go w/offering optional SAE Combo, instead of CHAdeMO. Outside of CA, there's little SAE Combo.

As for your last statement (at least for the US), maybe... but at least it seems L2 stations are much more reliable than DC FCs, or maybe my views are colored by the unreliable Nissan-branded and Blink CHAdeMO DC FCs.

He will learn too. Then same as the OP get frustrated by the next generation of owners.
The journey will be long. Don't give up yet.
Larger batteries will soon help.

Yep, the main issue here is that one QC per location is simply not enough even with light usage.

A minimum of two QCs per location in addition to one L2 stations (more if a location where cars are commonly parked for an hour or more) for backup should be a minimum.

I've been saying this for a long time - Capacity of Charging Stations Using an Erlang-B Model

Let's say you want to avoid having to wait to charge 90% of the time.
With one station, it only has to be used 6 minutes an hour for this to happen.
But if you add a second station, you can support 5.5 times as much charging with 33 minutes of use an hour possible while maintaining the same risk of queuing.


Erlang B Calculator if you want to play with various factors: http://www.erlang.com/calculator/erlb/

Make sure you tell whomever manages the stations you're at and leave plugshare comments any time you encounter an issue like this.

I've only pulled into a quick charge once while someone was using it. He also was going to 100%. The good thing about both the quick charge locations around me is they are both right beside an L2 and they both display the amps and volts. I was able to show him how his amps and volts gave a kW that was just barely above the L2s 6.6 and that it will keep dropping and take about the same time to get to 100% that it had taken to get up to 85%. I asked him if he would mind switching to the L2 and he did so. I could then show him how my 40% battery was charging at the much higher quick charge rate.

I talked to him for a bit and felt bad because he had just bought his leaf and was planning on using it for almost full range even in the winter. I was able to show him plugshare and show him his best possible stops that he would have to make on the way home in the winter. Like me his drive has the quick charge at the less than ideal half way/turn around point near work. It would be much better if it was 25% closer to his home than work since in the winter it will probably take him more than 80% to get home.

i think the chargers need to help in the education part of things. so that you don't have to invade someones incomplete thought process. The charger could say. You are no longer using the Quick/rapid charger feature and now charging at the L2 speed. Please move to the L2 charger to free up this for quick charging for others. I know, people don't read messages or instructions but at least you could point to it if you came across someone doing this.

I don't plan any trips that my car can not do from a charge at home. I do not want to compete with anyone at a quick charger station anymore. I've met plenty of those who plugin, lock and leave for hrs and it gets my goat when they don't even leave a message or number on their car.

It happened to me a few times. I find that talking and explaining to the people helps. Once I was a bit irritated when explaining that the QC at above 95% is not faster than L2. I believe I scared that lady a bit. Keep calm, be courteous and people will likely be wiling to listen and even let you charge for 5 minutes and than get back to charging their cars.

It is the time of the year when everybody seems to be in a hurry. Relax, take it easy enjoy the holidays.

DuncanCunningham said:

i think the chargers need to help in the education part of things. so that you don't have to invade someones incomplete thought process. The charger could say. You are no longer using the Quick/rapid charger feature and now charging at the L2 speed. Please move to the L2 charger to free up this for quick charging for others. I know, people don't read messages or instructions but at least you could point to it if you came across someone doing this.

Click to expand...

Problem is that the DC FC doesn't know what the L2 speed of the car plugged in is. And, that presumes that there is an L2 nearby at all, let alone at a reasonable price. When I had a Leaf w/CHAdeMO inlet, at some Walgreens w/free DC FCs, there either was no L2 nearby or, if there was one, the L2 was at a ripoff price (e.g. $0.49/kWh) vs. the FREE DC FC. Those DC FCs are now on Blink at ripoff prices ($0.59/kWh).

drees said:

Yep, the main issue here is that one QC per location is simply not enough even with light usage.

A minimum of two QCs per location in addition to one L2 stations (more if a location where cars are commonly parked for an hour or more) for backup should be a minimum.

Click to expand...

Yep.

camasleaf said:

It happened to me a few times. I find that talking and explaining to the people helps. Once I was a bit irritated when explaining that the QC at above 95% is not faster than L2. I believe I scared that lady a bit. Keep calm, be courteous and people will likely be wiling to listen and even let you charge for 5 minutes and than get back to charging their cars.

Click to expand...

I've had instances where a) the person didn't know and or b) cases where the party was not even interested in hearing what the person in front of me waiting and myself had to say re: charging rate. The b party ignored our attempts to communicate and rudely left.

I feel the Demographic of EV owners changing from caring first adopters, to cost cutting above all uncaring of the EV field. I see owners dropping cars at charging stations and leave them every night, just for free fuel. they are not unable to charge at home, just want to save money with free charging.. tying up stations for hours. I don't see a fix other then charging a small fee to pay for power.

speedski97 said:

I feel the Demographic of EV owners changing from caring first adopters, to cost cutting above all uncaring of the EV field. I see owners dropping cars at charging stations and leave them every night, just for free fuel. they are not unable to charge at home, just want to save money with free charging.. tying up stations for hours. I don't see a fix other then charging a small fee to pay for power.

Click to expand...

This is why all public charging (especially L3) should be fee based on time connected, not kWs supplied. People will learn how their EV charges and learn to use public charging stations efficiently when every minute they are hooked up comes out of their pocket. They will learn that keeping their car connected when it is 90%+ charged is not wise and will quickly stop just parking and leaving their car hooked up for hours on end.

jpadc said:

speedski97 said:

I feel the Demographic of EV owners changing from caring first adopters, to cost cutting above all uncaring of the EV field. I see owners dropping cars at charging stations and leave them every night, just for free fuel. they are not unable to charge at home, just want to save money with free charging.. tying up stations for hours. I don't see a fix other then charging a small fee to pay for power.

Click to expand...

This is why all public charging (especially L3) should be fee based on time connected, not kWs supplied. People will learn how their EV charges and learn to use public charging stations efficiently when every minute they are hooked up comes out of their pocket. They will learn that keeping their car connected when it is 90%+ charged is not wise and will quickly stop just parking and leaving their car hooked up for hours on end.

Click to expand...

It cannot be time based because different cars onboard chargers charge at different rates (3.3 versus 6.6) for example. Blink chargers in my area will bill you for being connected but not charging. I believe it is the same rate as if you were charging. They give you a fifteen minute grace period to unplug.

To the OP; With larger batteries on the very near horizon it may become a non issue for you. In the meantime, maybe you can turn your time waiting into something positive that you can do for yourself or others. Good luck!

L-3 chargers (and those are actually "chargers") bypass the onboard charger, so in that case charging based on time is more reasonable.

Evoforce said:

It cannot be time based because different cars onboard chargers charge at different rates (3.3 versus 6.6) for example. Blink chargers in my area will bill you for being connected but not charging. I believe it is the same rate as if you were charging. They give you a fifteen minute grace period to unplug.

Click to expand...

Well, of course it CAN be. I understand some cars charge faster than others. That's not relevant to the owner/operator of the charing station, nor in my view to making public charging viable as more people drive EVs . In fact if you check the Blink website, you will see that in some states, including one of the ones I live in, state law requires that EV charging fees (if any are collected) to be time based, not kWh based.

The OP is frustrated about public charging because there have never been incentives for EV owners to use them efficiently. With more EVs on the road, the issue about public charging becomes more and more about serving the needs of as many people as possible. So just like parking spaces on city streets, you need to maximize their efficient usage which is why you put meters on them. That encourages people to use them efficiently and move on as soon as possible for the next person to use. Letting one person lock up the space for hours on end when the resource is limited results in frustration for many. Letting EVs tie up a charging station when their car is 90%+ charged and the input amperage is scaled way back with others waiting in line is foolish. Put a "parking meter" on it and that owner will quickly learn its a good idea to stop charging and move on.

So, differential EV charging rates aside, metering by time is the best way (IMHO) to make public charging viable as the number of EVs on the road increase.

cwerdna said:

... the L2 was at a ripoff price (e.g. $0.49/kWh) vs. the FREE DC FC. Those DC FCs are now on Blink at ripoff prices ($0.59/kWh). ...

Click to expand...

I don't think it's fair to call it a "ripoff" if a charging company can't even break even at that price (and I don't think Blink is). You are either willing to pay what it costs or you're not.

let me guess; the guy was not an AV subscriber so was trying to make a round trip on one charge which likely meant getting at least to 90% for him?

I find that talking to people to educate them helps more than it harms and yes, sometimes they will get defensive but other times they tend to leave shortly after the conversation.

Either way; longer range LEAFs means more people not needing to stop. remove all the freebies and i am thinking it will remove most if not all the queues

cwerdna said:

Nubo said:

At a certain point, L2 "opportunity charging" becomes less necessary, less-used and less wanted. Quick-charging then becomes the sought infrastructure for long trips and for those who don't have charging opportunities at their residence. Public L2 stations will fade away from neglect and lack of will to maintain under-utilized infrastructure.

Click to expand...

Yet, we still have no PHEVs in the US w/ANY DC FC capability.

There are many BEVs running around that have DC FC as an option, but the buyer/lessee elected not to go for it (e.g. me).

Then there are others where it's not even an option. In going thru the list of BEVs at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/, the BEVs from these brands don't offer it as an option in the US: Fiat, Mercedes, Ford.

Then, there's the fragmentation issue where BMW, VW and Chevy decided to go w/offering optional SAE Combo, instead of CHAdeMO. Outside of CA, there's little SAE Combo.

As for your last statement (at least for the US), maybe... but at least it seems L2 stations are much more reliable than DC FCs, or maybe my views are colored by the unreliable Nissan-branded and Blink CHAdeMO DC FCs.

Click to expand...

For PHEV, the long-distance option is gasoline. I'd expect DCQC to continue to be rare or non-existent for that configuration. For pure EVs, QC utility is questionable with a sub-100 mile range. Some folks definitely use it; for others the prevalence and distances don't justify the added expense. I'm not talking about now, but the future and larger packs. With closer to 200 miles range, QC becomes a much more natural extension of the car's utility and more buyers will will seek the option as bridging the gap to "full function car" becomes easier and the gap smaller. More demand eventually results in more infrastructure L2 won't disappear overnight but will become increasingly irrelevant except for long-stay destinations -- home, work, motels, etc..

davewill said:

cwerdna said:

... the L2 was at a ripoff price (e.g. $0.49/kWh) vs. the FREE DC FC. Those DC FCs are now on Blink at ripoff prices ($0.59/kWh). ...

Click to expand...

I don't think it's fair to call it a "ripoff" if a charging company can't even break even at that price (and I don't think Blink is). You are either willing to pay what it costs or you're not.

Click to expand...

I also don't think it's a "ripoff" when my local utility charges about the same during summer peak hours.

The money to operate and maintain charging stations must come from somewhere - given that charging station owners currently have to to pay retail rates, the average rate for public charging must be more than the retail rate. The only way public charging rates will approach retail rates is if you somehow manage to let the utility run the stations and use distribution costs to pay for the electricity, or perhaps mandate that charging station owners are allowed to pay wholesale rates. OK - maybe another way - wait for solar + storage to get below the price of grid electricity and wait for someone with big pockets to install solar + storage with every charging station.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Either way; longer range LEAFs means more people not needing to stop. remove all the freebies and i am thinking it will remove most if not all the queues

Click to expand...

No way. Longer range EVs means much greater sales and cars on the road. Which will mean that EVs will make sense for a lot more people, including people who can't charge at home. Long range EVs will also make QCs more valuable as EVs are taken on longer trips.

This will place greater demand on charging infrastructure, not less.

Until public charging is as ubiquitous as gas stations, there will always be problems.

Look at how much power Tesla SuperChargers can push out. Yet still, at many locations in California lines form during busy travel periods along heavy traffic corridors, despite locations having 6-8 plugs capable of pushing 400-500 kW in total.

Contrast that to your typical CHAdeMO / Combo QC location which can only do 50-100 kW at most with 1-2 plugs.

The only thing that will reduce demand on charging stations is to increase the price and to eliminate flat fees making charging session fees either time or energy based.