Totally done with public charging.

[cwerdna]

... the L2 was at a ripoff price (e.g. $0.49/kWh) vs. the FREE DC FC. Those DC FCs are now on Blink at ripoff prices ($0.59/kWh). ...

I don't think it's fair to call it a "ripoff" if a charging company can't even break even at that price (and I don't think Blink is). You are either willing to pay what it costs or you're not.

I also don't think it's a "ripoff" when my local utility charges about the same during summer peak hours.

But, I wouldn't charge my Leaf during those times unless there were a REALLY good reason to.

As for "ripoff" or not, I suspect that 95+% of NRG eVGO DC FC users or Blink DC FC users have no idea about the profitability or lack of on the part of the providers. CCGI is bleeding money like crazy. Doesn't make their price a "bargain" or even ok (in my book). It's not one I'm willing to pay.
I've griped about this many times (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=443488#p443488, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=431133#p431133 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19486&p=417479&hilit=prius+mpg#p417479).

At gasoline below $2.75/gal for regular in my area now, the high prices make even less sense. The $4.95 just to start a session on NRG evgo would buy me 1.8 gallons of gas, enough to take my Prius 72.5 miles if I only achieved 40 mpg. Or put another way, at that mileage and gas price, Prius would cost me 6.875 cents/mile.

If I achieved 4 miles/kWh (assuming no losses from the DC FC's AC supply, which I doubt), $0.59/kWh equates to 14.75 cents/mile. No thanks. And, that doesn't include the $1K to $1.5K premium it would've been to buy an equivalent used Leaf but with the QC + LED package as well (that my leased one had). Factor that into vs. the # of times the CHAdeMO inlet's used.

The money to operate and maintain charging stations must come from somewhere - given that charging station owners currently have to to pay retail rates, the average rate for public charging must be more than the retail rate. The only way public charging rates will approach retail rates is if you somehow manage to let the utility run the stations and use distribution costs to pay for the electricity, or perhaps mandate that charging station owners are allowed to pay wholesale rates. OK - maybe another way - wait for solar + storage to get below the price of grid electricity and wait for someone with big pockets to install solar + storage with every charging station.

Yep. That's why I'm not too optimistic about DC FCing, unless it's subsidized in some way (e.g. Nissan NCTC, someone ponying up the $, Tesla bundling it in the price of the car, etc.) It seems there's no profit in it and maybe not even break even. Many (most) who logically look at it (and also have a fuel efficient ICEV) can fairly easily see that it's not economical and may not be worth it from the time, value, money and inconvenience perspective.

After all, even some folks (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=424997#p424997) didn't find FREE DC FCing worth the time.

I had to drive my Prius over the weekend to Daly City BART (56 miles from home, almost all highway) to go to the SF Auto Show. It reminded me (once again) that sometimes driving an ICEV or a non-BEV can be rather liberating. I didn't need to worry about running the heat, planning via Plugshare, going too fast, etc. for such a long distance (vs. the range of my Leaf).

I explored L2 charging options at BART stations w/parking lots that made sense for me. There were none.

SF parking w/charging options were no good (can make it there, but MUST charge to make it home), esp. on Black Friday where parking near Moscone Center would likely be packed anyway (due to the nearby Westfield shopping center). I could've possibly made it to a closer BART station in Fremont and back, but the BART ride was much costlier and (unnecessarily) longer.

I also could've possibly hypermiled.... err driven very slowly on the highway and made it to a Millbrae BART station and then back to work (to charge there), but it would be very dicey on a 2.5 year-old battery in the cold. It'd have been 84.7 miles, almost all highway w/no charging at all at the BART station. Then, I'd need to charge at work at least long enough to drive another 12 miles home.

So, I just took the Prius. No worries.

If I still had a Leaf w/CHAdeMO, my options would've been to make my trip longer, have a possible adventure w/broken or blocked stations, and pay more than driving my Prius.

Considering the recent BEV take rate per http://www.hybridcars.com/october-2015-dashboard/ was 0.4%, the tells me that probably 95+% maybe even 99.6+% of the American public will not be willing to put up w/adventures, having to drive slow, freezing, extra planning, etc. for trips beyond the round trip range of the EV and where there isn't known established, reliable and reasonably priced or free charging at the destination.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Imagine pulling up to a L2 charger and finding a Tesla plugged in!! I wasn't going to wait there until he/she was done!!

But even though I had to go extra slow home, it was still great to see the station in use and see an actual Tesla up close.

Long ago I've also found a Volt plugged in, and fully charged, so I unplugged him. At the time I didn't know, but quickly found out that their alarm is LOUD, especially at 4 a.m. when I was getting there for my early morning Sunday run. I guess they were parking there overnight.

 

[davewill]

I also don't think it's a "ripoff" when my local utility charges about the same during summer peak hours.

But, I wouldn't charge my Leaf during those times unless there were a REALLY good reason to.

You mean like needing to get somewhere and finding that public charging is the only way to do it?

As for "ripoff" or not, I suspect that 95+% of NRG eVGO DC FC users or Blink DC FC users have no idea about the profitability or lack of on the part of the providers. CCGI is bleeding money like crazy. Doesn't make their price a "bargain" or even ok (in my book). It's not one I'm willing to pay. ...

"Not a bargain" is wholly different than "ripoff" which implies that you are being taken advantage of. I agree the pricing isn't good, but unless and until public charging is as common as gas stations are now, or it's run under government/utility monopoly, I don't see it improving.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Imagine pulling up to a L2 charger and finding a Tesla plugged in!! I wasn't going to wait there until he/she was done!!

But even though I had to go extra slow home, it was still great to see the station in use and see an actual Tesla up close.

Long ago I've also found a Volt plugged in, and fully charged, so I unplugged him. At the time I didn't know, but quickly found out that their alarm is LOUD, especially at 4 a.m. when I was getting there for my early morning Sunday run. I guess they were parking there overnight.

haha! your statement implies most people dash off when their charging session is done. Cause the most likely scenario is a Tesla or LEAF driver will occupy the spot for the same amount of time. Now unplugging someone who has completed their charge is something I am completely ok with (if their timer is set, they never should have plugged in to begin with) but being able to plug in while they are camped out in the space becomes the next challenge.

as far as public charging; doesn't blink have reduced rates of .49/.39 per kwh for L3/L2 charging if you are a member? That is how WA pricing goes and membership is (or was) free so why not sign up? unlike other networks, you do not have to put cash up front (Chargepoint; initial deposit $20?? 2 years, 2 months ago, current balance; $11. SemaConnect; $25?? 3 years 4 months ago, bal $14)

Either way; there is always dozens of ways to look at any situation along with what lense you choose to use. Most here use a zoom. Now, I think there is no need to revisit the "bottled water" angle but when looking at costs, all the costs needs to be examined.

Comparing straight fuel costs don't work unless you

A) compare ALL the costs. Not just a single trip. so saying "I can go 50 miles in my XXXX for what it costs me to charge at YYY does not work unless you are also saving money when you drive 15,000 miles in XXXX and have paid off your maintenance bills for the year over that same travel in the LEAF and its maintenance fees (if any)

B) or have two cars like me but then that requires you to add in the cost of insurance, etc. into each time you leave your LEAF home for the "convenience" of driving 250 miles without stopping. When I do this; I often feel that public charging ain't so bad.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2015/11/snoqualmie-falls.html

this blog discusses my trip with my Son to see Snoqualmie right after our monstrous rain. It is simply a much more impressive site when the spray from the volume of water rises up 1000 feet and back down on us (yes, it was raining up!) But it was also a 140 mile trip made possible by two stops at Blink stations. First a DCFC where I got 6.20 kwh @ .49/kwh for $3.03. Then again later at an L2 for another 3.91 kwh @ .39/kwh for another $1.52.

So there ya go. two stops (the first one we actually sat in car about 5-6 mins before another LEAF arrived and since we "planned" to charge at our destination, we left surrendering the charger although there were L2's but I could tell by the look on the other LEAFers face that those were not what he was here for) Total cost $4.55. Add to that roughly $2.07 for a 24 kwh charge from home and we are at 4.67 cents per mile. My Corolla @ 40 mpg with gas barely cresting $2 a gallon is over 5 cents per mile so how am "I" losing with public charging costs? I add in Corolla maintenance which starts at a penny a mile (My Sister works at a Ford dealership so I get my oil changed there along with general safety inspection that goes along with a 16 YO car with 250,000 miles for $35 so my basic maintenance is pretty cheap)

Now all of the above does not address the expense of a 2nd car (insurance, parking, storage, etc) and my Corolla is exactly that. it has no primary use. So when you are debating the cost of public charging fees, you should take another look at where the rest of your money goes. I have 4 credit cards all of which pay cash back or points or whatever. I use one credit card for all food on the road (which is a lot considering my job) which lead me to an experiment that I will be revisiting again this coming Summer.

I was taking 32 oz poweraide bottles and refilling them with lemon Ice tea I brewed at home. I then froze the bottles which I would carry with me thru out my day. Leaving them in an insulated bag meant plenty of ice remained at the end of nearly every day which was essential cause I am not nearly as picky about what I drink than the temperature of what I drink which generally means I was paying a lot for cold. This alone saved me roughly $10-12 a week and sometimes more on hot weeks. The realistic cost of making tea at home was nearly nothing. My initial $15 investment is still half there so I was making them in batches of 10 bottles at a time and anyway I am guessing most of you have stopped reading by now.

Finally I am lucky enough that my work reimburses me for travel expenses so my Corolla is not a complete money pit (although its per mile cost is averages 600-1800% higher than the LEAF) but even with minimum legal insurance and the fact it only does optimal driving (no in town errands here!) it is something I am eager to dump and that will happen when the 40 kwh (no I have no inside info, just an understanding of my needs) LEAF

 

[Evoforce]

It cannot be time based because different cars onboard chargers charge at different rates (3.3 versus 6.6) for example. Blink chargers in my area will bill you for being connected but not charging. I believe it is the same rate as if you were charging. They give you a fifteen minute grace period to unplug.

Well, of course it CAN be. I understand some cars charge faster than others. That's not relevant to the owner/operator of the charing station, nor in my view to making public charging viable as more people drive EVs . In fact if you check the Blink website, you will see that in some states, including one of the ones I live in, state law requires that EV charging fees (if any are collected) to be time based, not kWh based.

The OP is frustrated about public charging because there have never been incentives for EV owners to use them efficiently. With more EVs on the road, the issue about public charging becomes more and more about serving the needs of as many people as possible. So just like parking spaces on city streets, you need to maximize their efficient usage which is why you put meters on them. That encourages people to use them efficiently and move on as soon as possible for the next person to use. Letting one person lock up the space for hours on end when the resource is limited results in frustration for many. Letting EVs tie up a charging station when their car is 90%+ charged and the input amperage is scaled way back with others waiting in line is foolish. Put a "parking meter" on it and that owner will quickly learn its a good idea to stop charging and move on.

So, differential EV charging rates aside, metering by time is the best way (IMHO) to make public charging viable as the number of EVs on the road increase.

The solution is more charging stations. Until we take it upon ourselves to complain and demand of the companies that supply the stations, we deserve what we get. Don't scapegoat your neighbor too badly. Yes, people can sometimes be rude and inconsiderate but sometimes are also not informed. Quite often some tactful teaching can go along way...

 

[cwerdna]

as far as public charging; doesn't blink have reduced rates of .49/.39 per kwh for L3/L2 charging if you are a member? That is how WA pricing goes and membership is (or was) free so why not sign up?

The prices I quoted are ALREADY with the member discount. Blink's prices are higher here in CA. Go look up their infrastructure in San Jose, CA (for instance) at http://www.blinknetwork.com/blinkMap.html. To DC FC, it's $0.59/kWh for Blink Plus or $0.69/kWh for Blink Guest. For L2, it's $0.49/kWh and $0.59/kWh, respectively.

Re: DC FCs, 2 of the 3 Walgreens that had free CHAdeMO (all 3 are no longer free and on Blink now) for some reason had a Chargepoint L2 station nearby set to $0.49/kWh. Example: http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/6466. The remaining 1 had no L2 nearby at all.

For CHAdeMO, the only other major network in the Bay Area is NRG EVgo w/their crap billing system and lousy rates that you're becoming familiar with (https://www.nrgevgo.com/ev-drivers/freedom-station-plans/). Monthly fee for me? Not paying it.

Either way; there is always dozens of ways to look at any situation along with what lense you choose to use. Most here use a zoom. Now, I think there is no need to revisit the "bottled water" angle but when looking at costs, all the costs needs to be examined.

Comparing straight fuel costs don't work unless you

Sure, but the Leaf alone does not meet some of my non-commute needs, would be a pain/inconvenience in some cases and feel like a tether/limiter/impediment on freedom in others. So, I've kept my 06 Prius that I bought new in 06. I've had numerous cases where I was mileage beyond the range of the Leaf (sometimes far beyond) and where there was no charging or it'd add to inconvenience or awkwardness.

Example: Need to go on a date to a particular IMAX theater that was closest to true IMAX and not lieMAX). I had to do ~150+ miles in one night (and still had my Leaf w/CHAdeMO back then). Was in a hurry to pick up my date and make it to the theater already. I'd be pushing it in range to make it from home, to pick up my date then make it to the theater: 75+ miles almost all highway, at night. No charging available at the theater. Nissan dealer sorta near the theater would already be closed by the time the movie's over. You think I'm going to screw around w/charging adventures and then waiting to charge once the movie's over?

I've been to that same theater other times, as well (45 to 52 miles away from home, depending on the route, almost all highway).

Another time, I was on a date to Santa Cruz then Capitola (home to/from Santa Cruz is already starting to cut it close). There was no DC FC down there and hardly any L2. I parked (thanks to guidance) for free in Santa Cruz. If I had to deal w/L2, I'd have to look for open L2 and pay for parking (and charging).

Besides this, as I've said before after being reminded, you can always make more $, but once you've spent/wasted the time, you can never get that back.

I don't like driving to SF and back (~60 miles each way, almost all highway), as it is, figuring 1 hour to 1.5 hours each way w/o traffic and depending on where in the city. I don't like having to add an extra 30-45 minutes extra to charge (if still had CHAdeMO), having to detour to use a DC FC, dealing w/adventures (broken, blocked, stress of having to find another while low on juice), paying ridiculous rates and a lot of $ for an inlet.

Or, I could try L2 in SF, but that limits where I can park and go since most parking lots have no charging and street-side charging in almost unheard of.

If I used my CHAdeMO inlet 100 times, and paid $1K extra, that's $10 per use, on top of the crazy DC FC fees. In 2 years, I used my former Leaf's CHAdeMO inlet ~16 times ALL on free DC FCs only.

Add to that roughly $2.07 for a 24 kwh charge from home and we are at 4.67 cents per mile. My Corolla @ 40 mpg with gas barely cresting $2 a gallon is over 5 cents per mile so how am "I" losing with public charging costs?

Unfortunately, PG&E ripoff rates are NOWHERE near that cheap.

Due to the way the tiers are set up (see page 1 of http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf), most people are hitting tier 3 or 4 w/o a BEV as it is. So, adding a BEV can mean a marginal cost of 25 to 32 cents/kWh. At 32 cents/kWh, your $2.07 charge becomes $7.68 and thus 17.3 cents/mile.

Or they could go E-6 (http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf) w/its byzantine rate structure (I'm on E-6). The baselines we get are a joke. I'm in area X, code B (http://www.pge.com/en/myhome/saveenergymoney/financialassistance/medicalbaseline/understand/index.page), so for "summer", 100% (baseline) is 10.1/kWh a day and for "winter" it's 10.9/kWh a day. So, for a 30 day billing month, your 100% is 303 kWh/month or 327 kWh/month.

Way before I had a Leaf, another Leafer worked out some numbers for me when our baselines and pricing were different: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519.

I stay within tier 1 almost each month and occasionally hit tier 2, since I almost never charge at home. If I had no charging at work and had to do most of it at home, I surely would be pushed into tier 3, if not 4.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The prices I quoted are ALREADY with the member discount. Blink's prices are higher here in CA. Go look up their infrastructure in San Jose, CA (for instance) at http://www.blinknetwork.com/blinkMap.html. To DC FC, it's $0.59/kWh for Blink Plus or $0.69/kWh for Blink Guest. For L2, it's $0.49/kWh and $0.59/kWh, respectively.

oh good to know. funny Blink managed to do one thing right by pricing their rates based on the market. Like you, I cannot survive with one car. public charging simply is non existent in several locations I need to be. but we cannot deny that minimal use of the 2nd car is spendy but I did know this going in. In my job; I am required to travel which means my company usually provides company cars but that is not always the case. One area I need to visit is HUGE (The Olympia Peninsula) of which half is in the opposite direction from home to office which means the trip has to be long enough for them to justify paying me to drive to the office and home again in my POV (which is 46 miles btw) along with providing the company car. For the Southern half; it is simply not going to happen. Generally trips there run 80 to 120 miles so using my POV is generally the option here. Since its a consignment situation; my inability to provide POV means the job would be likely assigned to someone else who can.

So my having access to a gasser is essential for my livelihood but also went as cheaply as I could essentially gambling that the car I bought did not fall apart on me before I could justify its cost. There have been some hiccups which will delay the pay back period probably a year but... nothing is free right (although that is not as easy a statement when my LEAF is concerned)

Now don't get me wrong. Being compelled to drive my POV for work is not the goal of the company. The northern half of the Olympic Peninsula have be anywhere from 60 to 350 miles roundtrip. Anything over 150 miles in distance that allows a trip past the office, a company car is all but required. My company rents between a few and a dozen cars a week to cover us. It is cheaper for them to do this than pay us mileage (despite their currently pathetic rates...)

So now the real question becomes what do I need to become a single car household. Now for personal time; I am much more flexible about my time and how I spend it so public charging is much more acceptable so my only real concern is the areas that don't have it. I think 40 kwh will do the trick for me. It easily covers all the jobs I would be doing and most of my personal needs. Stopping for a charge can be looked at as an inconvenience like just about everything can. Its all a matter of perception

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
I wouldn't go as far as to say we've had very reliable public charging here in PDX. Blink had a steady 50% failure rate with their stations. Not sure what it is now but I stopped relying on public chargers. By choice my effective range is limited to the home charging radius.

Don

 

[pkulak]

Hello,
I wouldn't go as far as to say we've had very reliable public charging here in PDX. Blink had a steady 50% failure rate with their stations. Not sure what it is now but I stopped relying on public chargers. By choice my effective range is limited to the home charging radius.

Don

I was referring to the Aerovironment network. Yeah, Blink will always be a crap shoot, no matter where you are.

 

[GRA]

So now the real question becomes what do I need to become a single car household.

Oh, that's easy, a Gen 2 Volt. No planning, no infrastructure, no problem. cwerdna too. Or you guys could wait for Gen 2 BEVs, if they will fully meet your needs.

 

[GRA]

It cannot be time based because different cars onboard chargers charge at different rates (3.3 versus 6.6) for example. Blink chargers in my area will bill you for being connected but not charging. I believe it is the same rate as if you were charging. They give you a fifteen minute grace period to unplug.

Well, of course it CAN be. I understand some cars charge faster than others. That's not relevant to the owner/operator of the charing station, nor in my view to making public charging viable as more people drive EVs . In fact if you check the Blink website, you will see that in some states, including one of the ones I live in, state law requires that EV charging fees (if any are collected) to be time based, not kWh based.

The OP is frustrated about public charging because there have never been incentives for EV owners to use them efficiently. With more EVs on the road, the issue about public charging becomes more and more about serving the needs of as many people as possible. So just like parking spaces on city streets, you need to maximize their efficient usage which is why you put meters on them. That encourages people to use them efficiently and move on as soon as possible for the next person to use. Letting one person lock up the space for hours on end when the resource is limited results in frustration for many. Letting EVs tie up a charging station when their car is 90%+ charged and the input amperage is scaled way back with others waiting in line is foolish. Put a "parking meter" on it and that owner will quickly learn its a good idea to stop charging and move on.

So, differential EV charging rates aside, metering by time is the best way (IMHO) to make public charging viable as the number of EVs on the road increase.

This was all hashed over in the past, as Ecotality/Blink initially (in California) charged a flat hourly rate, and people howled because it meant that LEAF and Volt owners were paying twice as much for their L2 charging as Focus and 500e owners were. As it happens, the hourly rate was $1.00/hr. or about $0.30/kWh. When CCGI bought the Blink system from the bankrupt Ecotality, after a while (and all the complaints) they switched over to charging by the kWh in those states that allowed it. Unfortunately, they charged more for per kWh virtually everywhere than even the highest hourly rates that had been previously charged, which if anything made people even less likely to use them. As others have mentioned, CCGI later decided to impose connection fees ($0.08/minute IIRR) once charging was complete, to prevent camping out at chargers.

ISTM the most equitable way to handle things is to charge by time only for AC L1, as everyone can charge at 120V/12A, and charge by the kWh for AC L2 and all DC, switching to a time-based charge once the charging rate has fallen to the next lower charging classification (i.e. when DC L1 falls to AC L2 charging rate). You can, if you wish, increase the amount per time increment the longer the vehicle remains connected beyond the point at which it should switch to a different charging station. This is much the way bike sharing (and probably car sharing) fees work in some areas, i.e. you pay a daily, weekly, monthly or yearly membership fee, which allows you to use a bike for up to 1/2 hour continuously for free, the next 15 minutes costs you a quarter or whatever, the next 15 minutes is 50 cents, and then it really ramps up.

 

[jpadc]

ISTM the most equitable way to handle things is to charge by time only for AC L1, as everyone can charge at 120V/12A, and charge by the kWh for AC L2 and all DC, switching to a time-based charge once the charging rate has fallen to the next lower charging classification (i.e. when DC L1 falls to AC L2 charging rate).

This is not about equity. Its about sharing a limited resource. It does not matter to others if your car charges slower (or faster) than theirs or how far you can or need to travel before you can charge again. Nobody cares about your needs but YOU. They only care about when they can get their turn with the resource. Maybe it has been hashed out before, but its clear that current systems of public charging are not working effectively (in places with lots of EVs like CA) and as more EVs are on the road something will have to change. There will need to be more and faster public charging, but it will always be a limited resource that needs to be managed efficiently.

The other reason that time based is better is consumer clarity. Why do you think some states (including Indiana) made it illegal to charge by kWhs? Because how many kWs a car will draw while charging is something not under the consumer's control so there is absolutely no way for the consumer to know when they plug in what the final cost will be. Make charging fees time based (or a fixed total which is allowed in Indiana) and the consumer can know exactly when they plug in what it will cost. Where I work there are 2 L2 charging stations that are flat fee ($1.50 per charge). The problem with both fixed price and kWh based fee structures are that they lead people to park, plug in and stay all day. Which is not a problem right now with so few EVs, but as the number of EVs increase, time based is the best way to keep the resource open so as many people can use it as possible.

...switching to a time-based charge once the charging rate has fallen to the next lower charging classification (i.e. when DC L1 falls to AC L2 charging rate).

How would the consumer ever know when the rate changed once they plugged their car in and walked away under a system where the rates started changing as the draw from the car did? What a consumer nightmare that would be.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Hello,
I wouldn't go as far as to say we've had very reliable public charging here in PDX. Blink had a steady 50% failure rate with their stations. Not sure what it is now but I stopped relying on public chargers. By choice my effective range is limited to the home charging radius.

Don

all in your POV. half of several is way better than 100% of nothing

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So now the real question becomes what do I need to become a single car household.

Oh, that's easy, a Gen 2 Volt. No planning, no infrastructure, no problem. cwerdna too. Or you guys could wait for Gen 2 BEVs, if they will fully meet your needs.

Easy for you but why would I ever go from a 90 mile EV to a 50 mile EV??

 

[GRA]

So now the real question becomes what do I need to become a single car household.

Oh, that's easy, a Gen 2 Volt. No planning, no infrastructure, no problem. cwerdna too. Or you guys could wait for Gen 2 BEVs, if they will fully meet your needs.

Easy for you but why would I ever go from a 90 mile EV to a 50 mile EV??

Unless I misunderstood, you said your normal drive was 46 miles, and were asking how you could get to a single car. You're using the Corolla for trips beyond the LEAF's range, and at least with the Volt you know you'll be getting ca. 50 miles electric on every trip (better mpg beyond AER, too). After all, if the Volt 1 is getting almost the same number of electric miles as the LEAF in real-world service on a yearly basis, the Volt 2 should equal or more likely exceed it (for a 24kWh LEAF; we'll see how things stack up for the 30kWh vs. Volt 2 - 30kWh still isn't enough to be a universal car).

 

[GRA]

ISTM the most equitable way to handle things is to charge by time only for AC L1, as everyone can charge at 120V/12A, and charge by the kWh for AC L2 and all DC, switching to a time-based charge once the charging rate has fallen to the next lower charging classification (i.e. when DC L1 falls to AC L2 charging rate).

This is not about equity. Its about sharing a limited resource. It does not matter to others if your car charges slower (or faster) than theirs or how far you can or need to travel before you can charge again. Nobody cares about your needs but YOU. They only care about when they can get their turn with the resource. Maybe it has been hashed out before, but its clear that current systems of public charging are not working effectively (in places with lots of EVs like CA) and as more EVs are on the road something will have to change. There will need to be more and faster public charging, but it will always be a limited resource that needs to be managed efficiently.

The main reason they're not working effectively (in California at least) isn't crowding, it's pricing and profit (rather, lack of it). Absent low-cost storage or allowing the utilities to compete and provide charging directly, the price of for-profit public charging is too high, so no one with any sense uses it unless they've got no choice, and in that case, gas is cheaper at the moment. Of course, they also need to provide more chargers per site to reduce wait times when there is crowding, as well as provide redundancy.

The other reason that time based is better is consumer clarity. Why do you think some states (including Indiana) made it illegal to charge by kWhs?

Because they have laws that prevent anyone other than utilities from charging by the kWh. California had to change its laws to allow it.

Because how many kWs a car will draw while charging is something not under the consumer's control so there is absolutely no way for the consumer to know when they plug in what the final cost will be. Make charging fees time based (or a fixed total which is allowed in Indiana) and the consumer can know exactly when they plug in what it will cost. Where I work there are 2 L2 charging stations that are flat fee ($1.50 per charge). The problem with both fixed price and kWh based fee structures are that they lead people to park, plug in and stay all day. Which is not a problem right now with so few EVs, but as the number of EVs increase, time based is the best way to keep the resource open so as many people can use it as possible.

I have no idea why you think the number of kWs a car will draw is a factor in the final cost; you could apply the same argument to gasoline, as different pumps operate at different rates depending on how clean their filters are (but all are restricted to a maximum of 10gal./min), and yet no one seems to have any problem paying by the gallon, or having a pretty good idea of how much it will cost them. Of course, filling up with gas is fast enough that no one is going to walk away and leave the car for an extended period of time, but a battery only has so much capacity, so you know there's a maximum amount it can take - everything after that is a charge for you occupying the spot and preventing someone else from using it (and there's a grace period of some minutes before you start being charged by time).

...switching to a time-based charge once the charging rate has fallen to the next lower charging classification (i.e. when DC L1 falls to AC L2 charging rate).

How would the consumer ever know when the rate changed once they plugged their car in and walked away under a system where the rates started changing as the draw from the car did? What a consumer nightmare that would be.

Most people with EVs have smart phones these days, and can be notified directly, and they also know (because the car tells them) about how long it should take to charge. The important thing is that they know in advance (because it's posted on the EVSE/charger), that the rate will change, which will clue in the great unwashed that there's no advantage to keeping their car plugged in on a QC after the taper starts. The typical owner remains unaware of this behavior, but this gives them a reason to move to a less expensive (i.e. slower) EVSE when there's no benefit in time to staying at the faster, more expensive one. Alternatively, a simpler option is what some of the QCs do now, and just stop charging at 80% or so of max. capacity (or 30 minutes), followed by a few minutes grace period, then time-based fees start.

 

[Rat]

It's been a long time since I even took a look at a public charging thread. My 2011 Leaf has had terrible luck with the L3's, but not because they are usually blocked by others. I have been able to find ones that are free, but only Blink units. I have had a failure rate of about 70% from those. I get a message saying the charger is unable to communicate with the car. It's happened with units that I charged on earlier in the day (with 5 or 6 attempts). It's happened after multiple tries and when I finally move to an L2 and prepare to wait 45 min. to an hour just to get to the next L3, someone else comes up in a Leaf and plugs in just fine to the L3 that wouldn't work with my car. So I was done long ago. It sounds like now there are some L3 chargers that actually work. Can someone tell me what is available in the Bay Area (Silicon Valley) that isn't broken or unreliable? I might just go back to using my Leaf for stuff over 50 miles again.

 

[Evoforce]

It's been a long time since I even took a look at a public charging thread. My 2011 Leaf has had terrible luck with the L3's, but not because they are usually blocked by others. I have been able to find ones that are free, but only Blink units. I have had a failure rate of about 70% from those. I get a message saying the charger is unable to communicate with the car. It's happened with units that I charged on earlier in the day (with 5 or 6 attempts). It's happened after multiple tries and when I finally move to an L2 and prepare to wait 45 min. to an hour just to get to the next L3, someone else comes up in a Leaf and plugs in just fine to the L3 that wouldn't work with my car. So I was done long ago. It sounds like now there are some L3 chargers that actually work. Can someone tell me what is available in the Bay Area (Silicon Valley) that isn't broken or unreliable? I might just go back to using my Leaf for stuff over 50 miles again.

It sounds to me that you might forget to turn your charge timer off on your car or some other operator error like getting a good lock on the port with the cord etc. My bet is you forget to push the off button on your charge timer right before hooking up to QC.

 

[abasile]

It sounds to me that you might forget to turn your charge timer off on your car or some other operator error like getting a good lock on the port with the cord etc. My bet is you forget to push the off button on your charge timer right before hooking up to QC.

At least on my 2011 LEAF, the charge timer has nothing to do with using QC. It doesn't matter what the charge timer settings are, or if a timer is on at all.

 

[Evoforce]

It sounds to me that you might forget to turn your charge timer off on your car or some other operator error like getting a good lock on the port with the cord etc. My bet is you forget to push the off button on your charge timer right before hooking up to QC.

At least on my 2011 LEAF, the charge timer has nothing to do with using QC. It doesn't matter what the charge timer settings are, or if a timer is on at all.

You know what, I think you are right. I just automatically push the button every time I charge it on anything out of it's nighttime charge timing. One time I was in a hurry, I hooked up to an L2 and dashed into a meeting only to find when I came out that I still had a depleted battery. I had forgot to push the off timer button but was charged for being hooked up without charging! So from then on out, I just tried to get myself to automatically push it every time.