The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

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edatoakrun

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
5,222
Location
Shasta County, North California
The ideas below have been posted on many threads, by many members. But now that many now have had more BEV experience and winter is here (I may get to try out my LEAF in the snow for the first time here in North California, tomorrow) I thought maybe there would be interest in a dedicated thread.

I’m still not so ready to totally write off the ICE, as many on this site seem to be.

In fact, a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extention for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient.

I think this could be integrated into the design of BEVs (and maybe even as a portable unit, and available for rent, as many have fantasized) at lower cost, and lower weight, than the huge battery packs some BEV manufactures seem to think are advisable.

So, say you are a San Francisco Bay Area resident. You usually keep the heater set to propane by default in the winter, extending the range by about 10% and reducing battery cycling accordingly, without even using the ICE feature. You refill the 5 gallon propane tank once a month or so, just to supply the heater.

When you want to take the BEV on the occasional longer drive, say to Tahoe for a weekend of skiing, instead of making 3 or 4 stops (with a 20-30 available kWh battery pack) for DC charges, you just turn on the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept charge, while you and your passengers are kept toasty warm by the propane heater. You stop for one 30 minute 80% DC charge at Auburn (120 miles in 2 hours of driving, about 20 kWh consumed from the battery pack, and 16 kWh used from the generator) and top-off the propane tank (you only used a few gallons) at the adjacent minimart. This is just enough generator-assisted charge to get you the last 80 miles over Donner Summit to your destination, but you never get “range anxiety" (or BEV "freeze anxiety" about road closures or delays, due to weather) as you know that if you get the “very low battery” warning, you can just pull off the road, and if there is no charge station (or only a L2) nearby, you can always find a place to stop for a short break, while you self-recharge for the last few miles, using your generator. And if you get stuck behind a semi that jackknifed in a snowstorm, closing the road, you can watch the generator add bars to your battery, as the propane heater keeps you and your passenger comfortable, while you wait for the road to be cleared.

I believe BMW may be the only manufacture currently contemplating this true ICE “range extender” option, for its BEVs.

Personally, I believe that the several thousand dollars (?) of increased cost, and few dozen gallons of fossil fuel I would use per year, might be an acceptable price to pay for the increased functionality. I hope that, in the near future, there will be many production "EREVs" worth considering.
 
interesting substitution that may be worth while, and options for buying now or getting later. how about portability as maybe it drops in the back trunk area. C an be removed when not needed. like a small portable Honda generator ( even better if you could use it as a free standing generator for emergency purposes. I guess it really all comes down to how many more miles a BEV would need to go on a charge not to really need a backup. I would say a true 120-150mile range would negate any need for ICE or other assist for a BEV.
 
You dont need a very big genset if you start it up right at the beginning of your trip.. it may not be enough to sustain a speed above 70mph once the battery is depleted but you can always slow down once that happens.
 
Herm said:
You dont need a very big genset if you start it up right at the beginning of your trip.. it may not be enough to sustain a speed above 70mph once the battery is depleted but you can always slow down once that happens.

Correct. In the example I gave, the 8 kWh generator would only power the car, what, about 30-40 mph on a level drive?

It would be unable to climb any hill at that speed, and generally not be safe for highways, however. So the manufacture would probably prevent driving below battery capacity corresponding to "turtle" range, of a few percent, for long distances.

You could get a cup of coffee, while you wait for some charge to build up.

BTW, Herm, I actually started this post as a reply to your extended-range 400 lb. extra extended-range battery suggestion, on another thread, but it sort of grew on me...
 
The manufacturer will need to incorporate this in the original design.
Personally I prefer a rental trailer with either a battery or generator.

You can talk about it all day..... right now the only current option is a PHEV.
 
Two reasons I prefer a trailer.

1) I prefer to have no emission control regulations and cost apply to the vehicle.
2) I have not needed a range extender in 8300 miles so a rental if ever needed seems better than adding all the permanent maintenance.
 
If I'm going to the bother of renting a trailer, especially one that can't keep up with the energy expenditure and requires me to stop and recharge anyway, I'd rather just have it be an auxiliary battery than a generator. I can recharge it separately as I go, or trade it for a fresh one as needed. Besides, most small generators are HORRIBLE when it comes to emissions, something that I greatly care about. It would be better just to rent a Prius.
 
smkettner said:
Two reasons I prefer a trailer.

1) I prefer to have no emission control regulations and cost apply to the vehicle.
2) I have not needed a range extender in 8300 miles so a rental if ever needed seems better than adding all the permanent maintenance.


Well, I only suggest this could be an option for BEVs.

Don't want it, don't buy it.

I imagine the emission regulations and regulatory costs of a rental trailer (or even a portable in-car unit) would be just as onerous as for a permanent in-car installation.

You think the state and federal government won’t notice, and also won’t care about, that thing you are towing behind you on the freeway?
 
THe extender does not even need to really be a trailer, it could be a "hitch" attachement. Imagine a 1" square hitch (too small to abuse with a heavy trailer, but fine for a bike rack or a small flat pad for say a cooler or even a ER generator. Maybe even a really small haaul trailer (enough for plywood and timers and small amounts of slash/mulch for the yard).

The "coupler could both allow power to things coming out of the car (trailer lights for that small halling stuff trailer). The ER generator could then be direct connect (better areodymanics). Maybe even something you get at Uhall for a weekend rental.

And the manufacture only has to provide a rear-side charging and hitch, the rest can be all after market.

Still not replacing the AWD CUV need for snow driving, but would make the Leaf or other BEV far more viable.
 
DrInnovation said:
... but would make the Leaf or other BEV far more viable.
LOL - you are basically claiming in a Leaf forum that Leaf isn't viable, as it is now ?! :lol:

It reflects on your critical thinking capabilities than on viability of EVs.

Here is a suggestion for all the Volt proselytizers - first broaden your minds and find out how Leaf works in real life.
 
The Leaf needs about 20kW to sustain highway use, so a 10kW would easily double your range. 20kW would be about perfect for long trips, and 30kW would allow you to charge and drive, so you could arrive with a full charge. This is what I'm building with a Capstone 30kW turbine. I can run it on CNG or Propane, and it's cleaner than almost any ICE.

-Phil
 
edatoakrun said:
I imagine the emission regulations and regulatory costs of a rental trailer (or even a portable in-car unit) would be just as onerous as for a permanent in-car installation.

You think the state and federal government won’t notice, and also won’t care about, that thing you are towing behind you on the freeway?
Just as onerous but still not my problem. Same as I do not worry about smog regulations when renting a car.
 
Ingineer said:
The Leaf needs about 20kW to sustain highway use, so a 10kW would easily double your range. 20kW would be about perfect for long trips, and 30kW would allow you to charge and drive, so you could arrive with a full charge. This is what I'm building with a Capstone 30kW turbine. I can run it on CNG or Propane, and it's cleaner than almost any ICE.

-Phil

Phil,
I knew there was a reason that I loved you. :lol: :lol:

Capstone Turbine corporation has a C30 30kW generator (http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prodsol/products/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
that I have been watching for some time now. I liked the idea of a 1 inch or 2 in receiver in the rear that would incorperate a direct connect to the generator. In your opinion, could such a receiver hold enough weight for this C30 plus fuel for 3 hrs?

Is the Leaf perfect. NO! While I am purchasing a leaf and hope to have it within the month, I know the car will only provide 90% of my driving needs. I can't even go to the airport for a flight on it's current range. Even with QC charging, it would double the time necessary to get to the airport (Atlanta). In order for the BEV to replace ICE, the BEV needs a min 150 mile (interstate) range. That would be 2 hrs driving for every 45 min QC stop. Go to NM see how far the leaf range will take you. I live in middle GA. The leaf will take me to the town north of me (Macon), and south of me (Perry) and that is it. For around Warner Robins, it's great, but that is it.

Even with a good QC intrastructure you would spend as much time recharging as driving. That is not going to hack it here in America. I love the BEV, but the leaf needs to have 4x the range at the same price to become main stream.
 
It may be possible to "hang" the unit off the back if careful design was done, but the Leaf's rear suspension would probably not like it without some tweaking. So for our initial prototype, it will be a compact trailer.

-Phil
 
Ingineer said:
It may be possible to "hang" the unit off the back if careful design was done, but the Leaf's rear suspension would probably not like it without some tweaking. So for our initial prototype, it will be a compact trailer.
Another option is to put one of these generators from Home Depot on a trailer. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202214407&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=202214407&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D25X-_-202214407&locStoreNum=674" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; But how would you charge and drive at the same time? Does the car allow it?
 
eHelmholtz said:
Another option is to put one of these generators from Home Depot on a trailer. http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202214407&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=202214407&ci_src=14110944&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D25X-_-202214407&locStoreNum=674" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; But how would you charge and drive at the same time? Does the car allow it?


Those are garbage not to mention it would be a nightmare to interface to that unit.
 
Ingineer said:
It may be possible to "hang" the unit off the back if careful design was done, but the Leaf's rear suspension would probably not like it without some tweaking. So for our initial prototype, it will be a compact trailer.

-Phil
Phil,
have you every seen the paper on "Simulation of a Two-Stroke Free-Piston Engine for Electrical Power Generation". This might be smaller, lighter and more fuel eff than the C30.
see (https://inplortal.inl.gov/free%252520piston%252520device.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

A small generator to extend the range of the leaf for the few long range trips I make would be perfect. I could also use it as a stand by generator for the house when the power goes out.

My current 10kW PV system is gride tie and cannot be used for emergcy power.

Keep up the good work. I love your discussions on EVSEs. And when I receive my leaf I might (I only lease mine) be sending in my EVSE for the 120/240 upgrade. I've installed a PowerExpress from SPX with a 40amp breaker and 8 gage wire. That will be more than enough for the current leaf. Even if we go to 6.6kWh charger.

I wish there was a way to attach pictures but I have found that yet.

Tried sending this as a private message but couldn't.
 
A lot of talk about range extending and trailers, but nobody remembers these things?

ICE engine on a trailer, EV turn Serial Hybrid:
rav_longranger01.jpg


Extra battery pack on a trailer (homebrew):
4444084193_8ee216c8ba.jpg


There's a good solution for ya: Rent a range extender. Why lug around an ICE and several gallons of gasoline you'll hope you never use? Bonus: They can be fitted to run on cleaner fuels like propane!

N952JL: That PDF link won't open for me :/ URL looks funny, too... can you link to the page it's linked from?
=Smidge=
 
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