Official Renault Fluence Z.E. thread

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showpost" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... stcount=95

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ce_ze.html

Price: £19,000 (plus £85 a month for battery)
Powertrain: 95bhp electric motor
Battery: 20kW/h lithium-ion
Torque: 260Nm
0-62mph: 9.0 seconds (est)
Top speed: 84mph
Charge time: 6-8 hours (mains)
Range: 100 miles
CO2: 64g/km (EU electricity mix)
Equipment: Air-con, electric windows, part-leather upholstery, battery monitor, 17-inch alloys
On sale: 2012

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Drive test ...

Thanks to the consistent torque and eerie silence, the Fluence feels more like a luxury limousine than a family saloon.
...
Despite carrying a 250kg battery pack, the Fluence Z.E weighs only around 50kg more than a fully brimmed, petrol-engined Fluence. As a result, it’s nimble and good ?fun through corners, thanks ?to light but precise steering.

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I'd expect Leaf to similarly weigh close to comparable ICEage car.

I'm number 12 on the UK reservation list. I had a play in one last September in Frankfurt. It is a very nice car.

Unfortunately the timescales have slipped by 18 months, but that's par for the course in this industry.

The car is interesting but I'm not too interested in renting a battery, it feels like buying a car for which the engine's price is not included and you have to rent it. How long does the contract last, and what would be the rental price after that? At the end of the contract can you replace the battery by one from a competitor?

Btw can you recharge at any recharging station with the same connector as that for the Leaf?

IceRaven said:

The car is interesting but I'm not too interested in renting a battery, it feels like buying a car for which the engine's price is not included and you have to rent it. How long does the contract last, and what would be the rental price after that? At the end of the contract can you replace the battery by one from a competitor?

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I personally think renting a depreciating asset in its infancy along the technology curve makes perfect sense. Unfortuantely they don't allow that here.

Ofcourse you can replace the battery with a competitor's if there is one.

Btw can you recharge at any recharging station with the same connector as that for the Leaf?

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I guess so - they should all have J1772 ...

MikeBoxwell said:

I'm number 12 on the UK reservation list. I had a play in one last September in Frankfurt. It is a very nice car.

Unfortunately the timescales have slipped by 18 months, but that's par for the course in this industry.

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Mike, I am always skeptical of a 'retrofit' in any application...but it seems that this ICE car works ok as an EV. It is interesting they were able to do that, or at least to date have demonstrated they can....

Well, Renault designed this car from the ground up as both an electric car and an ICE car. So yes, it is a bit of a compromise, but it is going to be less of a compromise than a car that was first designed to have an ICE and then have an electric motor shoved under the bonnet afterwards.

There are some significant structural changes to the EV version of the car - it is longer than the ICE version and much of the floorpan is different.

Leasing batteries makes perfect sense. Whilst it works out more expensive than buying the batteries and then replacing them every few years, it does take out the capital cost of replacing the batteries. The cost of leasing the batteries (and recharging them) works out significantly less than refuelling an ICE, so it allows you to de-risk owning an EV and still save money.

After all, you don't buy a car and buy five years worth of fuel up front, do you? So what is wrong with buying a battery on a pay as you use basis?

MikeBoxwell said:

After all, you don't buy a car and buy five years worth of fuel up front, do you? So what is wrong with buying a battery on a pay as you use basis?

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I don't like this analogy, Mike, because leasing a battery is like leasing an empty fuel tank. The owner still needs to buy fuel in either case.

From another direction, look at the photovoltaic model. Power output degrades over the useful life of the solar panel, yet in many areas it's better for the equipment owner to pay up-front. This secures a stable cost of power as compared with the steadily increasing cost of grid power.

From a strictly business position, I can see how operating a battery leasing scheme would be a way to generate cash flow and profit for the leasing company. A very common 'sales' technique is to remind a potential customer of their 'pain' and then offer a 'solution'. If people think that EVs are too expensive, and are unsure about battery life, then they might consider a lease to be 'potentially less painful'. The antidote for battery fear is knowledge, but one isn't likely to hear how good lithium is from someone promoting a battery swap business.

Andy

Interesting old teaser from Renault ...

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/renault-fluence-ze-driven/how-to-buy-one/252825

The Fluence isn't going to break new ground in the EV market – we already know the Nissan Leaf is both more exciting to look at and to drive. However, Renault's way of selling you the car and leasing you the battery may well be the more financially attractive way of getting an EV on your driveway. Which all makes us even more excited about the Twizy and Zoe, genuinely ground-breaking EVs that will follow on a few months later.

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A full second of more quicker than the Leaf, that is a big difference and by the specs it must weigh less, funny weighs less and not a ground up design.

EVDRIVER said:

A full second of more quicker than the Leaf, that is a big difference and by the specs it must weigh less, funny weighs less and not a ground up design.

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A full second? I hate to bum you out, but it's looking like the Leaf will be more like 12 seconds for 0-62mph.

mwalsh said:

EVDRIVER said:

A full second of more quicker than the Leaf, that is a big difference and by the specs it must weigh less, funny weighs less and not a ground up design.

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A full second? I hate to bum you out, but it's looking like the Leaf will be more like 12 seconds for 0-62mph.

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Even more to my point. Pretty bad performance and all due to excess weight. If the Leaf pack is really 600 lb the a glider that weighs 2900-3000 is flat out over weight let alone one that was "purpose built". My guess is extra steel for crash tests and heavier than needed gen 1 components for assurance.

Renault has started manufacturing Fluence ZE.

1st one in Dec.



100th now.

Nice picture - with the number on the line, it looks like production will shortly catch that of the Leaf. :lol:

Very nice!.. how soon before its available in the US?

I like the idea of leasing the battery, it solves so many problems.. but its not really allowed in the US. A way around that is if the car came with two batteries, a small one good for 2 miles or so, that always stays with the car.. and a larger one that is leased and gives you the 100 miles of range. This would bypass the laws that prevent battery leasing.. ie: selling you a car that does not run. It would also give you the option of different ranges depending on what battery you chose.. and a battery designed to only last 3 years should be a lot cheaper than one designed to last 10.

I once thought battery swaps would be key to widespread EV sales. But cost and design limitations, and above all, getting manufactures to adopt common battery designs, seems to make this an increasingly unlikely near-term option in the US.


"Providing the best look yet at what a plug-in vehicle battery exchange program might cost if introduced in the U.S., industry trailblazer Better Place said that its program in Denmark will provide drivers of properly equipped electric cars unlimited access to home and public charging and freshly charged battery packs whenever needed for the equivalent of 399 euros ($551) a month. ...

One drawback to its battery exchange plan is that it requires automakers - a notoriously independent bunch - to agree on common standards for pug-in vehicle battery packs that can be installed and removed from beneath a vehicle.

So far, Renault is the only company building cars with battery packs that work with Better Place's automated exchange stations, although several other automakers, including Tesla Motors, have said they'll design future cars to use swappable batteries."


http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2011/03/better-place-denmark-plan-gives-glimpse-of-battery-exchange-cost.html

edatoakrun said:

I once thought battery swaps would be key to widespread EV sales. But cost and design limitations, and above all, getting manufactures to adopt common battery designs, seems to make this an increasingly unlikely near-term option in the US.

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You are assuming the only reason for these batteries is the quick swap scheme.. which I dont think is really needed since most people will charge at home overnight..

Leasing the battery, purchasing the car would drop the cost drastically.. and you would not need to baby the battery.

The beauty of the Project Better Place is that the quick swap stations are just there for peace of mind, most people will never use them and the expense for PBP will be minimal. Common battery designs will not be an issue since you will just lease the battery from the manufacturer for your specific car, eventually that pack will be rebuilt and re-leased. Nissan's system allows for quick rebuild, just swap all the modules for new ones.

Herm said:

edatoakrun said:

I once thought battery swaps would be key to widespread EV sales. But cost and design limitations, and above all, getting manufactures to adopt common battery designs, seems to make this an increasingly unlikely near-term option in the US.

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You are assuming the only reason for these batteries is the quick swap scheme.. which I dont think is really needed since most people will charge at home overnight..

Leasing the battery, purchasing the car would drop the cost drastically.. and you would not need to baby the battery.

The beauty of the Project Better Place is that the quick swap stations are just there for peace of mind, most people will never use them and the expense for PBP will be minimal. Common battery designs will not be an issue since you will just lease the battery from the manufacturer for your specific car, eventually that pack will be rebuilt and re-leased. Nissan's system allows for quick rebuild, just swap all the modules for new ones.

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Exactly how does battery leasing drop the total cost "drastically"?

How will the cost of building battery swap stations every 60-100 miles across the US, instead of fast charge stations, be "minimal"?

And how much will the costs for battery swap locations increase if they have to stock multiple battery designs, fully-charged, for multiple vehicles?

Or will each manufacture have to build their own network of "swap stations"?

edatoakrun said:

How will the cost of building battery swap stations every 60-100 miles across the US, instead of fast charge stations, be "minimal"?

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Battery stations don't work in the US. The economics just don't work. Afterall there is no money for QC stations - which is so much cheaper than BP. QC needs $50K - BP station needs Millions.

In small countries like Denmark, Netherlands or Israel, I think it is a good idea.

Also a great idea for taxi's, ride-share vehicles, and other high-use fleet operations. This will allow the vehicle to be in use, while the swapped battery is charged off-peak, to save money, and/or less rapidly, to preserve maximum battery life.