Why not a fossil fuel heater for the Leaf or BEV's?

[edatoakrun]

Re: Unvented combustion.

Frankly I'm surprised noone has accused me of having ulterior motives of trying to kill all you LEAF drivers :shock: :lol:

Caveat ... if anyone tries this please please please drive with your rear windows cracked and fan only setting on low. I think the thing would put out a lot of heat (too much) so cracked windows would probably be required. Perhaps you'd only run it for a couple minutes anyway to warm the car up to 80 then let it gradually cool off.

No idea of your intent, but it is a very dumb suggestion.

Anytime you use flammable gas or liquid fuels you take risks. Even well engineered uses are inherently hazardous, as the thousands killed and injured every year in ICEV fuel fires, and exhaust gas poisoning incidents, has proven.

And following this suggestion could make your BEV as dangerous as a gas-fueled car, or possibly even more so...

 

[LKK]

I've read that it takes as much power to run the heater as it takes to run the car. As such, the idea of a fossil fuel heater makes sense to me as it is a easy and cheap way of maintaining range in extremely cold climates. My choice would be a gasoline heater simply because it would be easy to refill. Gasoline has a lot of negatives, but one thing good about it, is its energy density. A gasoline heater would be simple and inexpensive, but it would have to be engineered into the car from the beginning for safety. Since it it heat that you are after, I see no reason why a gasoline heater could not yield efficiencies in the 80 or 90 percent, way better than your average ICE car since heat is only a by-product and not the desired product.

 

[smkettner]

I've read that it takes as much power to run the heater as it takes to run the car.

Motor is 80 kW, heater is 5 kW. More typically they each run at about 1/8 to 1/4 power.

 

[davewill]

Not being in a cold weather area, I may have this all wrong, but I thought that the heated seats in the 2012MY (or added aftermarket) was an adequate solution to this problem.

 

[LKK]

I've read that it takes as much power to run the heater as it takes to run the car.

Motor is 80 kW, heater is 5 kW. More typically they each run at about 1/8 to 1/4 power.

The 80 kw is the max draw of the motor, in normal driving the average power draw is a lot less. The EPA rates the Leaf at 34 kwh/100 miles. When you get to temperatures below zero you are going to have to run the heater continuously. At 5kw the heater will depleate the battery in around 4 hours. This is not 1/8 or 1/4 the power of the motor, else you would be able to drive 16 or 32 hours without recharging. No, the orignal poster is correct, in severe environments the resistive heater sucks off range at a significant rate.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i bought a 12 volt heater that puts out so little heat you can put it in your lap. not definitely will not be enough to heat up the car, but for one person it might work. have not really had any cold days yet. it was in upper 30's yesterday but morning commute is so short i dont really have a chance to get cold. car comes from garage with temps in upper 50's or so. plus i am drinking hot coffee.

in afternoon, the weather has been mild temps in low 60's and sunny most days. we will find out in another month or so.

as far as power output. its 12 volts and 17 watts i think. it does not register anything on the power meters.

 

[smkettner]

I've read that it takes as much power to run the heater as it takes to run the car.

Motor is 80 kW, heater is 5 kW. More typically they each run at about 1/8 to 1/4 power.

The 80 kw is the max draw of the motor, in normal driving the average power draw is a lot less. The EPA rates the Leaf at 34 kwh/100 miles. When you get to temperatures below zero you are going to have to run the heater continuously. At 5kw the heater will depleate the battery in around 4 hours. This is not 1/8 or 1/4 the power of the motor, else you would be able to drive 16 or 32 hours without recharging. No, the orignal poster is correct, in severe environments the resistive heater sucks off range at a significant rate.

I have not driven my Leaf in freezing temps. However my experience is the heater throttles back power as soon as the cabin warms up. Yes it takes a lot of power at the start. I am just saying it does not lock in at 5 kW.

I would be interested in the actual demand curve when the Leaf is driven 30 minutes in freezing temps for both preheated and not.

 

[mitch672]

I would be interested in the actual demand curve when the Leaf is driven 30 minutes in freezing temps for both preheated and not.

You will have your answer by the end of January 2012, that's when many of us in the Northeast are scheduled to get their 2012 Leafs.

 

[scottf200]

i bought a 12 volt heater that puts out so little heat you can put it in your lap. not definitely will not be enough to heat up the car, but for one person it might work. have not really had any cold days yet. it was in upper 30's yesterday but morning commute is so short i dont really have a chance to get cold. car comes from garage with temps in upper 50's or so. plus i am drinking hot coffee. in afternoon, the weather has been mild temps in low 60's and sunny most days. we will find out in another month or so. as far as power output. its 12 volts and 17 watts i think. it does not register anything on the power meters.

Do you have a link to the one like you bought? 17 watts is pretty low. Other 12v ones out there seem well over 100 watts.

 

[garygid]

Zero Emissions Goal?

Burning the Carbon-based fuel, using the Oxygen, possibly creating
Carbon Monoxide, needing (often icy cold) ventilation, and carrying/storing
the fuel inside the car's passenger compartment (probably illegal)
are all significant issues.

 

[mitch672]

does the Leaf have a standard "hot water" loop for the heater? If so, this will work, and has already been posted on this thread. This installs in the engine compartment, and warms the hot water heater loop up...

http://www.parkingheater.com/products/parking-heater/compact-middle-range-cars.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Zero Emissions Goal?

Burning the Carbon-based fuel, using the Oxygen, possibly creating
Carbon Monoxide, needing (often icy cold) ventilation, and carrying/storing
the fuel inside the car's passenger compartment (probably illegal)
are all significant issues.

Well, if your grid has a significant fossil fuel generation fraction, you probably would be creating less CO2 pollution using 80% efficient fossil fuel heat, rather than electricity, to heat your BEV.

But I agree, unvented combustion in the BEV cabin is idiotic.

I am aware of no technical reason, however, that a propane fueled heater (supplanting the resistance heater, perhaps using a water loop to the heatant tank) could not be safely installed OUTSIDE the cabin, such as under the hood of the LEAF IMO, this would be a far more efficient cold weather-range extender than the ICE generator and extra battery packs proposals, posted on other MNL threads.

The simple technology is reflected in the price of the unit below. In fact, to heat the cabin, you'd only need a fraction of the BTU's RV water heaters produce. I'm not aware of an "off the shelf" unit, that would fit under the hood, though.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=rv+water+heater&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=4942428285894256945&sa=X&ei=VSyoToz-DdDUiAL58dCeDQ&ved=0CIQBEPMCMAI#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mitch672]

does no one read? look one post back. its already done, seems to only be availble in Europe, but I bet we could get them here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKNLntj87G8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[garygid]

The heater could be added to the "coolant" loop,
but you would have to hot-wire the pump to run.

Maybe disconnect the HV heater, use it's "ON" Control
signal to turn the gas-heater ON, and use the rest of
the controls to manage the fan and temperature?

Yes, might work.

 

[edatoakrun]

does no one read? look one post back. its already done, seems to only be availble in Europe, but I bet we could get them here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKNLntj87G8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link.

I'd be surprised if they (and others) aren't working on a (smaller and hopefully cheaper-with no ICE lump to heat up) unit with it's own fuel source for BEVs.

As to using one of these ICEV units on your LEAF, I expect the diesel or gas tank (and fuel pump?) install would make it a fairly pricey proposition.
But If you have severe winters, and have a long commute....

 

[mitch672]

They have controllers for it, that integrate to different vehicles. The smallest unit they have now is 4KW, which might be about right. The issue is storage of the fuel... perhaps they can work on an EV specific unit with a small integrated tank, as these exist now, you buy the unit that matches your fuel source, either gasoline or diesel. I'm sure they are being asked about this already.

This looks like a good solution, as it ties into the coolant loop, and with the control, the Leafs heater could be disabled, and this unit turned on, looks like a big power saver to me. Either way the heater fan has to run, but you save lots of power on the heating element itself. I'm betting we'll see these in EVs in severe climates.

 

[Smidge204]

I know I've asked this before, but does anyone know if the coolant for the motor/inverter actually gets hot during normal use? I figure you might salvage a few hundred watts at least from it. If conditions are right maybe you can add an actuated valve to shunt it into the heating system loop ahead of the element so the heater isn't working as hard.

=Smidge=

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

no it doesn't do anything in a while you are driving

 

[Smidge204]

no it doesn't do anything in a while you are driving

Then why actively cool the motor/inverter at all? Even at 90% efficient you have to be shedding heat somewhere... only question is how much.
=Smidge=

 

[muus]

Here's a propane powered one (should be cleaner):

http://www.enviroharvest.ca/block_heater.htm