Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

[kmp647]

there is no logical explanation for the lack of development on a voltec cuv

thats why I bet they are working on it as part of the gen2 platform

 

[hill]

Ultimately it is price, everything sells (even the Yugo) for the right price. If the Volt was only $4,000 more than the Cruze after tax credits the demand would go way up.

Do you think Nissan getting the LEAF starting price below $30,000 in 2013 was a key accomplishment?

These 2 thoughts are a good sum . . . . and it's why Toyota's hydrogen car won't sell . . . . that and no infrastructure.

 

[dhanson865]

Actually, the Volt has proven to be incredibly reliable, even more so than the Leaf.

I had several late model GM products that seemed plagued with quirky mechanical & electrical problems much too early in life so the though of buying an electric car from GM didn't invoke a warm & fuzzy feeling. The LEAF fits my current need in a far less complex package. I hope the Volt proves itself as an excellent car but thought it best to pass for now.

what volt are you looking at? The quote below is from a post I did on another forum, the context is slightly different but the numbers are still valid.

http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/reliability-1048/vs-Prius-272
http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/reliability-1048/vs-LEAF-968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/reliability-968/vs-Prius-272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2013 Chevrolet Volt 45
2013 Nissan Leaf 42
2013 Toyota Prius 4

2012 Chevrolet Volt 41
2012 Nissan LEAF 6
2012 Toyota Prius 8

2011 Nissan LEAF 7
2011 Toyota Prius 19

2010 to 2005 Prius look reliable as well but there are no Leaf or Volt to compare against in those years.

To be clear I'd avoid the 2013 and 2014 Leaf as well but I consider the Prius and the early Leafs to be good safe choices. Sign up for an account on truedelta (its free) and read through the repair histories on some of those Volts, it's not the kind of issues I want to deal with in a car.

Imagine trying to repair a Volt that has 150,000 miles on it when it's out of warranty and half its systems are failing.

or put another way "best GM car I've ever owned" isn't as good as best Toyota I've ever owned.

 

[evnow]

CUVs/SUVs have now overtaken sedans as the plurality of U.S. car sales.

I see that news everywhere ... the other big piece is - CUVs overtaking mid-size sedans (316 vs 315k) for the first time.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[dm33]

You know the CUV issue is totally right. I probably would have bought a Volt if it was large enough for roadtrips with the family. I shopped the Volt - did think it was a little too cozy. Would have considered it more if it was more practical. I mean the only thing I can't do with the Leaf is roadtrip and taking a roadtrip in a Volt isn't particularly appealing (if possible with our usual luggage).

But if they put the drivetrain in one of their CUVs and got 32 miles AER - now we are talking. Electric 90% of the time locally and roadtrip capable. Unbelievable that they haven't done it yet.

Now I see why so many are upset about the ELR...

Thats why the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV may do very well in this country. Decent electric range in an CUV package at a reasonable price. 4 wheel drive doesn't hurt either.

 

[davidcary]

When ever anyone bashes the 2013 Leaf for reliability, I just give my experience. 15k miles - 1 visit to dealer for battery check and they did my state inspection also. So horribly unreliable.....

I think I did buy wiper blades myself so not truly maintenance free....

 

[mctom987]

I generally exclude common consumables (tires/wipers) when comparing EVs to ICEs. Unless it was a statistically relevant difference, like for some reason the Leaf could only use tires that lasted 10k miles…

 

[evnow]

Thats why the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV may do very well in this country. Decent electric range in an CUV package at a reasonable price. 4 wheel drive doesn't hurt either.

That is apparently the reason Mitsu is doing their best to delay bring Outlander here

 

[RonDawg]

Thats why the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV may do very well in this country. Decent electric range in an CUV package at a reasonable price. 4 wheel drive doesn't hurt either.

That is apparently the reason Mitsu is doing their best to delay bring Outlander here

Mitsubishi's biggest challenge in the US is whether or not their dealer network will be around by the time the warranties expire on the cars that are currently on their dealer lots.

 

[lorenfb]

Actually, the Volt has proven to be incredibly reliable, even more so than the Leaf.

I had several late model GM products that seemed plagued with quirky mechanical & electrical problems much too early in life so the though of buying an electric car from GM didn't invoke a warm & fuzzy feeling. The LEAF fits my current need in a far less complex package. I hope the Volt proves itself as an excellent car but thought it best to pass for now.

what volt are you looking at? The quote below is from a post I did on another forum, the context is slightly different but the numbers are still valid.

http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/reliability-1048/vs-Prius-272
http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/reliability-1048/vs-LEAF-968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/reliability-968/vs-Prius-272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2013 Chevrolet Volt 45
2013 Nissan Leaf 42
2013 Toyota Prius 4

2012 Chevrolet Volt 41
2012 Nissan LEAF 6
2012 Toyota Prius 8

2011 Nissan LEAF 7
2011 Toyota Prius 19

2010 to 2005 Prius look reliable as well but there are no Leaf or Volt to compare against in those years.

To be clear I'd avoid the 2013 and 2014 Leaf as well but I consider the Prius and the early Leafs to be good safe choices. Sign up for an account on truedelta (its free) and read through the repair histories on some of those Volts, it's not the kind of issues I want to deal with in a car.

Imagine trying to repair a Volt that has 150,000 miles on it when it's out of warranty and half its systems are failing.

or put another way "best GM car I've ever owned" isn't as good as best Toyota I've ever owned.

One needs to read beyond the headlines:

"63 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Chevrolet Volt. 31 of these members (49.2%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 51 repairs to 2013 Chevrolet Volts--an average of 0.8 per vehicle--have been reported.

48 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Nissan LEAF. 13 of these members (27.1%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 23 repairs to 2013 Nissan LEAFs--an average of 0.5 per vehicle--have been reported."

Many of the Leaf repairs were for minor problems, e.g. medallion color, trim, etc.

My 2013 Leaf with over 9K miles has never had ANY problem!

 

[TickTock]

..and things will get worse for the Volt as time moves on. More parts --> more things to break. Again, I think the Volt is a very cool car but more complicated. This comes at a cost.

 

[edatoakrun]

Not sure I believe this report:

Opel will discontinue the Ampera, the slow-selling rebadged version of the Volt made by General Motors sister brand Chevrolet, after the redesign of the 2016 Volt, according to two people familiar with the company's plans.

GM is slated to launch its next-generation Volt during the second half of next year.

Despite sharing European Car of the Year honors with the Volt in 2012, the Ampera has been a commercial flop since its launch that year.

In 2013, sales sank 40 percent to 3,184 cars. They've decelerated further this year, plunging 67 percent through the first five months, to 332 cars...

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20140721/ANE/307259991/opel-will-discontinue-weak-selling-ampera-sources-say" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since I don't see how GM could expect to recoup V-2 development costs with sales limited to the North American market.

 

[dhanson865]

One needs to read beyond the headlines:

"63 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Chevrolet Volt. 31 of these members (49.2%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 51 repairs to 2013 Chevrolet Volts--an average of 0.8 per vehicle--have been reported.

48 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Nissan LEAF. 13 of these members (27.1%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 23 repairs to 2013 Nissan LEAFs--an average of 0.5 per vehicle--have been reported."

Many of the Leaf repairs were for minor problems, e.g. medallion color, trim, etc.

My 2013 Leaf with over 9K miles has never had ANY problem!

How about this version?

http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/powertrain-reliability-1048/vs-LEAF-968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Chevrolet Volt and Nissan LEAF Powertrain and Chassis Reliability for the Year Ending Mar. 31, 2014

http://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF/powertrain-reliability-968/vs-Prius-272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nissan LEAF and Toyota Prius Powertrain and Chassis Reliability for the Year Ending Mar. 31, 2014

2012 Volt 28
2012 Leaf 9
2012 Prius 2

2011 Leaf 4
2011 Prius 6

2010 Prius 8 (first year of Gen III sold in much higher numbers)

2009 Prius 8 (last year of Gen II sold less)
2008 Prius 6 (another bump in sales for this model year)
2007 Prius 6

2006 Prius 14
2005 Prius 16
2004 Prius 19 (first year of Gen II)

even on a 2005 Prius (really old) or 2010 Prius (223 owners reporting) the powertrain reliability number for the prius is single digits every year from 2013 back to 2007 and in the mid teens for 2006 and 2005.

so there are more powertrain failures reported for the 2012 Volt at a ratio of 14 to 1 vs the same year Prius and a ratio of 2 to 1 vs a car 7 years older.

The Prius has gas and electric motors, it has most of the complexity the Volt has to have. Somehow Toyota did it more reliably (I'd blame that on having the the 1997-2003 Prius (Gen 0 and Gen 1) to work out the worst mistakes before moving on to the improved design that the 2004-2009 became (Gen 2)) and for having a much simpler cooling system for the battery pack.

For the same reason people avoided the first generation Prius to see if it was safe to buy, I'm saying it's worth avoiding the first generation Volt. Reliability isn't there yet.

The only reason the older Prius looks so much worse is because they've all hit so many years and so many miles. Many of these cars went hundreds of thousands of miles and there is even a club on priushcat.com for owners that maxed out the odometer at 299,999+ miles. Currently that is 7 cars with the highest hitting 489,895 miles.

I'm looking forward to pure EVs being more reliable than a Prius. I want to see that first Leaf that goes 300,000 miles with nothing but a replacement battery pack or two. I want to see how many miles I can rack up on my first EV. I don't want to mess with the volt gas motor or electronics at those sorts of mileages. Not unless they can meet Toyota's standard of reliability and compete with Nissan/Tesla on cost per mile (I'm expecting EVs to beat the cost per mile of a Prius at some point if you can't do so already with a used 2011 Leaf).

 

[lorenfb]

Again, read further as the same results:

"63 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Chevrolet Volt. 31 of these members (49.2%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 51 repairs to 2013 Chevrolet Volts--an average of 0.8 per vehicle--have been reported.

48 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Nissan LEAF. 13 of these members (27.1%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 23 repairs to 2013 Nissan LEAFs--an average of 0.5 per vehicle--have been reported."

And then view the pie charts of each with regard to failure type.

Leaf
Engine (4%)
Transmission (4%)
Brakes (13%)
Suspension (4%)
Electrical and AC (57%)
Body and Trim (13%)
Other (4%)

Volt
Engine (27%)
Transmission (8%)
Brakes (4%)
Suspension (0%)
Electrical and AC (47%)
Body and Trim (8%)
Other (6%)

 

[TomT]

The sample size is so small for the Leaf and Volt (and even the Prius) that one can not really draw any solid conclusions from it. My statistics professor would point to this as an example of "statistically flawed" results... Regardless, I know seven people now who own Volts and not one of them has ever had any kind of problem... Conversely a number of the Leaf people I know HAVE had issues, particularly on later models...

"63 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Chevrolet Volt.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Once the LEAF has national competition, its sales will decline but BEV sales overall will probably increase.

nothing but assumptions and I will make another assumption in that your assumption is completely wrong. if BEV's were so easy to build, then everyone would have one.

go back to 2005, a year after the Iconic Prius was released. Everyone said the same thing about hybrids. It took 9 years for the 2014 Ford Fusion to come out and imm, its the first real competition Toyota has had. Still a price issue but at least Ford is finally able to post "real" numbers nearing the golden 50 MPG Gold standard Toyota set a decade ago.

 

[TomT]

I think it is far more a matter of ROI than ability...

nothing but assumptions and I will make another assumption in that your assumption is completely wrong. if BEV's were so easy to build, then everyone would have one.

 

[lorenfb]

I think it is far more a matter of ROI than ability...

nothing but assumptions and I will make another assumption in that your assumption is completely wrong. if BEV's were so easy to build, then everyone would have one.

It's as simple as that, i.e. when the market $ volume will justify the costs/investments, they will produce!

 

[dhanson865]

Again, read further as the same results:

"63 TrueDelta members own a 2013 Chevrolet Volt. 31 of these members (49.2%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 51 repairs to 2013 Chevrolet Volts--an average of 0.8 per vehicle--have been reported.

You seem to be looking at a different webpage than I am. I'm not seeing those numbers on truedelta. Is that from a review or past article or from the live database? Can you provide the URL you are pulling from as I did?

Oh wait I see you are confusing the repair histories with the reliability data.

http://www.truedelta.com/2013-Chevrolet-Volt/repair-histories-1048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

vs

http://www.truedelta.com/Chevrolet-Volt/reliability-1048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole purpose of the difference between the two is to make the numbers comparable between brands and models. The data is normalized. You are pulling data from the wrong part of the web site and using it as an argument against the data from the right part of the website.

I'm a little busy right now to be explaining the math to you, maybe someone else will do it for you.

and I'm definitely not going to spend the time to pull the numbers you are trying to compare from over a dozen different pages to make the comparison data in the format you seem to want to refer to.

as an example the 2012 Prius comparible page says

"93 TrueDelta members own a 2012 Toyota Prius. 12 of these members (12.9%) have reported repairs for their car. A total of 17 repairs to 2012 Toyota Prii--an average of 0.2 per vehicle--have been reported. "

notice 0.8 per vs 0.2 per is similar ratio as reported with the larger numbers in my prior posts. Its the relative scale of the numbers that matters not the absolute size or format of the numbers.

 

[donald]

Well, Leaf is not only pulling away from Volt in Europe, it has destroyed it:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093417_opel-ampera-euro-chevy-volt-axed-over-slow-sales" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;