Why 200 miles??

[evboy]

What is wrong with a ev that goes 150 miles. That is a game changer. It doesnt have to be 200 miles. Thats overkill if the price difference is substantial. Why cant they shoot for a small 4 door car that gets 150 miles and zero to 60 in 6 seconds. You make that and you have a mass market car. Hopefully they can sell that for 18k w/o the incentive.

 

[johnrhansen]

and have it so it can charge up in 20 minutes with dc charging, and have a battery cooling system so the battery wont over heat. Then it would be useful for road trips.

 

[eloder]

It's a psychological thing. Electric cars are already at a point where they are hands-down ideal for a majority of Americans, even at an average range of 40-75 miles depending on temperature. Any person who A) Commutes less than 40 miles a day or lives in a stable climate with a longer commute, B) Is a household that owns more than one car, and C) Has access to an outlet nightly stands (a majority of Americans fall under all three categories) to save money for an electric car. Leafs are pretty decent, though a much cheaper car like a smart electric drive or m-IEV is going to see by far the most savings from replacing their daily commute car.

200 miles will help convince people that what is already better, is indeed better for them. 200 miles also is substantial for the urban crowd who may not have access to a charger, but could utilize level 3 chargers in a manner similar to ICE folk do with gas stations now. 200 miles also allows people to use an EV as a replacement for everything an ICE does, at least with access to the Tesla supercharger network.

 

[Valdemar]

Nissan sold us a 100-mile car goes 75 miles. GM will have a 200-mile car that goes 150.

 

[mbender]

Nissan sold us a 100-mile car goes 75 miles. GM will have a 200-mile car that goes 150.

+1 We need to ask for 200 in order to be reasonably sure of receiving 150. And that's when it's new. Then we'll also be reasonably confident that we'll get 100 miles 8-10 years down the road.

 

[knightmb]

Some people will never be satisfied with any EV. even if they got 1,000 miles per charge. The complaint would still be not enough range. :? :roll:
Just like computers and phones, we find ways to maximize usage until we see something better and then desire that next best thing.

That being said, if we don't pressure the auto corporations to produce higher range and more efficient vehicles; they will just sit on their hands and assume we are content. Progress can't be made when the driving force is profits rather than achievement. If the Leaf was selling for half the price of a gas car, people would look beyond the range limits and maximize what they could with it. Instead, the range limits coupled with price is a big consumer road block. If Nissan can mass-produce their EV battery so cheap, then why not ramp up production for more and more capacity?

We feel the technology is there, just not be push of effort.

 

[evboy]

i would rather have a 150 mile car for 17k than a 200 mile car for 23k.

 

[knightmb]

i would rather have a 150 mile car for 17k than a 200 mile car for 23k.

I agree, there is no pricing the range with an EV. You can't buy a Tesla that only goes 100 miles per charge the same way you can't buy a Leaf that goes 300 miles per charge. It's kind of leap when you buy. Right now in my area, a new 2015 Leaf with the QC package can be had for $26k, but with the 80 - 100 mile range. That might be fine for a lot of people. But they don't sell at 150ish mile range leaf if one wanted to pony up extra money for example to upgrade to a larger battery capacity. Neither can one buy a 50 mile range Leaf (New, not used degraded battery) for less money, say for someone that does very little driving (think grandparents that live in town, kids first car, local delivery service for food/flowers/etc).

 

[evboy]

i would rather have a 150 mile car for 17k than a 200 mile car for 23k.

I agree, there is no pricing the range with an EV. You can't buy a Tesla that only goes 100 miles per charge the same way you can't buy a Leaf that goes 300 miles per charge. It's kind of leap when you buy. Right now in my area, a new 2015 Leaf with the QC package can be had for $26k, but with the 80 - 100 mile range. That might be fine for a lot of people. But they don't sell at 150ish mile range leaf if one wanted to pony up extra money for example to upgrade to a larger battery capacity. Neither can one buy a 50 mile range Leaf (New, not used degraded battery) for less money, say for someone that does very little driving (think grandparents that live in town, kids first car, local delivery service for food/flowers/etc).

do you think as battery costs go down, they will be able to make 4 versions of a car w/o having to change the structure of the car to fit different packs. if they can make a 200 mile pack in 3 years for 200 a kwh then they could make a 10kwh 20kwh 30kwh, and 40 kwh battery packs. thats 2k,4k,6k,8k. everything else being equal, there would be a 6k difference between the smallest and largest. Now, im no manufacturer, so i dont know if it would cost the company more to make 4 packs compared to 2, but if the cost dont go up to change the packs on the assembly line, i dont see why not offer the whole spectrum, and sell a boatload.

 

[RonDawg]

do you think as battery costs go down, they will be able to make 4 versions of a car w/o having to change the structure of the car to fit different packs. if they can make a 200 mile pack in 3 years for 200 a kwh then they could make a 10kwh 20kwh 30kwh, and 40 kwh battery packs. thats 2k,4k,6k,8k. everything else being equal, there would be a 6k difference between the smallest and largest. Now, im no manufacturer, so i dont know if it would cost the company more to make 4 packs compared to 2, but if the cost dont go up to change the packs on the assembly line, i dont see why not offer the whole spectrum, and sell a boatload.

Tesla does that now on the Model S, with 60 kWH as standard and 85 kWH optional. In the beginning they even had a 40 kWH battery but discontinued it for "lack of demand."

I do believe that as EVs become more mainstream, manufacturers will give more battery capacity choices just as some ICEVs have powertrain options. Some folks only care about price and don't need extra range, while others will be willing to pay extra for added range. However for mainstream cars I don't see more than 2, maybe 3, battery capacity options, to help keep assembly costs down.

 

[knightmb]

Tesla does that now on the Model S, with 60 kWH as standard and 85 kWH optional. In the beginning they even had a 40 kWH battery but discontinued it for "lack of demand."

I do believe that as EVs become more mainstream, manufacturers will give more battery capacity choices just as some ICEVs have powertrain options. Some folks only care about price and don't need extra range, while others will be willing to pay extra for added range. However for mainstream cars I don't see more than 2, maybe 3, battery capacity options, to help keep assembly costs down.

The great thing about battery packs is that increasing or decreasing capacity is just using more/less batteries. I think the issue is how flexible the charger/inverter/BMS system is so that packs are just plug n' play and the vehicle figures out the rest. So if you have a Leaf with a 24 kW/h battery pack and someone wants the 20 kW/h battery pack just to save some money, it would fit in the same spot.

One issue would be upgrading to a bigger battery pack. Either the physical size to hold it must increase or they just need to use higher quality packs that cram more capacity into the same space. I would hope it would go the same way that computer hard drives did where the drive remained the same size, but the capacity kept increasing. It's all about the scale of economics, if there is enough demand, it can drive the price down.

It's a shame those "lack of demand" 40kW/h packs never show up in other EV because it seems like Tesla would have a good outside market selling those to work in smaller or less power demanding setups. I think if someone went to Nissan (or any other company producing EV) with an amazing battery pack design that doubled capacity, solved temperature issues and cost the same as they pack they created, they would not use it simply because of the "not invented here" attitude that a lot of companies have.

 

[RonDawg]

It's a shame those "lack of demand" 40kW/h packs never show up in other EV because it seems like Tesla would have a good outside market selling those to work in smaller or less power demanding setups.

My understanding with the 40 kWH packs is that after Tesla announced their discontinuation, for those who ordered their cars that way but that were still unbuilt, Tesla actually installed 60 kWH batteries but software-limited them to 40 kWH. Apparently they felt that manufacturing them was also uneconomical.

 

[keydiver]

However for mainstream cars I don't see more than 2, maybe 3, battery capacity options, to help keep assembly costs down.

+1 More options = higher manufacturing costs, which is why Tesla refused to build the 60D I had ordered. Also, its not just a matter of adding more batteries, as the total voltage still has to be ~400 volts, if you are going to use the same charger. IMO, if Nissan would ever offer 2 different range models, the size and density of each cell would need to be different, like the difference between the Tesla 60 and 85. That means that the Nissan factory would need to produce and stock 2 different size cells and 2 completely different packs for assembly and maintenance. Personally, I don't see any of the mainstream car manufacturers ever offering this.

 

[CRLeafSL]

Personally I think 200 miles is still too low. I think they need to be shooting closer to 300 miles to match an ICE counterpart. Why? Road trips. When I buy a car, I want to be able to jump in it and go wherever I want like I do an ICE car including long distance road trips. 200 miles "what nissan would call 200 miles is probably more like 150 on a good day" is still too low. That's just my opinion and I would always spend the extra money for the larger battery.

 

[rogersleaf]

I would be happy with a 6-10 kWh add-on booster pack for the hollow space behind the rear suspension of the current LEAF.

 

[BrockWI]

That means that the Nissan factory would need to produce and stock 2 different size cells and 2 completely different packs for assembly and maintenance. Personally, I don't see any of the mainstream car manufacturers ever offering this.

But isn't this the same thing as cars being offered with different engine option? I know in the VW Jetta line you have the same make and model, yet at least 3 powertrain options. Pickup the same thing, the exact same chassis and 3 engine options. So why can't you do the same thing with the Leaf? My guess is until they are selling 10k of each make each month, switching back and forth in production would be costly.

I would be really curious though, if they offered the 24 kw leaf and 48 kw leaf, what the sales on each would really look like. I know cost would play in to it, but I would be willing to bet even with a $5k bump in price the 48 kw Leaf would sell at least double the 24 kw model. Psychologically I believe people want that range. I would certainly pay for the larger battery for that once a month trip I can't take in the Leaf now or so I can blast the heat without thinking about it

 

[dgpcolorado]

But isn't this the same thing as cars being offered with different engine option? I know in the VW Jetta line you have the same make and model, yet at least 3 powertrain options. Pickup the same thing, the exact same chassis and 3 engine options. So why can't you do the same thing with the Leaf? My guess is until they are selling 10k of each make each month, switching back and forth in production would be costly.

I would be really curious though, if they offered the 24 kw leaf and 48 kw leaf, what the sales on each would really look like. I know cost would play in to it, but I would be willing to bet even with a $5k bump in price the 48 kw Leaf would sell at least double the 24 kw model. Psychologically I believe people want that range. I would certainly pay for the larger battery for that once a month trip I can't take in the Leaf now or so I can blast the heat without thinking about it

Going from 24 kWh to 48 kWh would be relatively simple since the battery controller and motor could be run at the same voltage levels by doubling the cells in parallel. But even that would require a lot of adjustments to the car to account for the greatly increased size and weight of the battery packs.

Other battery size options could be more complex to fit electronically. A 36 kWh pack could work if there were three cells in parallel and 96 cell "triples" in series. But as one adds other battery sizes, the entire LBC and motor system is going to have to be redesigned to complement the chosen battery. Just adding 5 or 10 or 50 kWh in battery isn't as simple as it sounds: the car pretty much has to be designed around the chosen battery size (and safety tested). And that gets expensive unless the options are quite limited.

As to the OP's original question, 200 miles is the minimum to make Tesla's Supercharger system practical (for a variety of reasons I won't try to describe). For other, local or regional, uses a lesser range might work fine. I would guess that some are shooting for 200 miles more for reasons of psychology than practicality, just as the LEAF was originally supposed to be a "100 mile" range car, although it turned out to be considerably less than that under real world conditions, such as at higher speeds or in very cold weather.

For an EV buyer, at least a 200 mile range car could be counted on to get about 80-100 miles in winter conditions. And that has value to some.

 

[TimLee]

Personally I think 200 miles is still too low. I think they need to be shooting closer to 300 miles to match an ICE counterpart. Why? Road trips. When I buy a car, I want to be able to jump in it and go wherever I want like I do an ICE car including long distance road trips. 200 miles "what nissan would call 200 miles is probably more like 150 on a good day" is still too low. That's just my opinion and I would always spend the extra money for the larger battery.

But that is not what the current lithium battery technology can do.
Even in the wonderful $100,000 Tesla S the battery technology does not support that.

It is a laudable stretch goal in the next generation battery technology to achieve real 300 mile range in a somewhat affordable all electric vehicle.

But if 300 miles is your requirement with the current technology it will at best be an electric vehicle with some form of hydrocarbon powered range extension.

 

[DanCar]

I like the option of less range for less money, but big range is nice if you want to travel 85+ mph on a lonely freeway. I suspect the range will drop to 100 miles in that case.

 

[TimLee]

...
I would be really curious though, if they offered the 24 kw leaf and 48 kw leaf, what the sales on each would really look like. I know cost would play in to it, but I would be willing to bet even with a $5k bump in price the 48 kw Leaf would sell at least double the 24 kw model. Psychologically I believe people want that range. I would certainly pay for the larger battery for that once a month trip I can't take in the Leaf now or so I can blast the heat without thinking about it

Agreed.
$5K to double the range on a 2011 LEAF would have been well worth the $.
I think a 48 kWH pack would sell twice the 24 kWH.
But then it still amazes me how many go with the LEAF S with no heat pump heater.
I would never do that.
Hard to predict what human beings will do.