What happened to my Regen?

[FalconFour]

Figure I'd pop in here with some info. Mine started exhibiting exactly the same symptoms, but long after the update. Nothing prompted the change except for one figure I'll discuss in a second. Now, I'm lucky to get 4 bubbles any time above 2 bars remaining on the display - at 80%, I get nothing at all for quite a while. It's completely dependent on the amount of time regen is active - that is, the longer I slow down, the more regen power it pulls in before I come to a stop. It will keep regenning more and more power until I apply the accelerator and get back up to speed - short bits of power, not fully using all the regen'd energy - don't seem to "reset" it. It'll sway from 2 bubbles (including center dot - effectively "1 dot") all the way to 4 active bubbles (out of 5 - which I never get anymore except at LBW/VLBW) and then back to 1 active bubble (center dot only) within one stop light. HUGE variation, and clearly being limited by the battery controller's current-request reporting, same way it limits regen in typical Leafs over 80% SOC.

I have a theory to this. There's a figure that's reported by the Leaf Spy app (previously the Leaf Battery app for Android by Turbo3), that was previously called "Health" ("Hlth", but you can figure...), but is now just called "Hx" due to the unknown nature of the figure. For me in my Leaf, it started at 68.67% when the app first included Hlth reporting, with that figure on August 19th, '13. I thought that was rather low. Everything here is "post-update", too. I had P3227 done pretty early on. As time wore on, that figure never really trended upwards, but only downwards with a few upward burps within a range of error. That's led me to believe that "Health" or "Hx" is related to internal resistance of the battery cells, perhaps an average, or maybe a figure of "lowest health" of the cells in the pack. I have two cells that perform noticeably worse than the others in the graph - always at a lower voltage than the others, at all times and all SoCs.

Suddenly, around 63% "Hx", I noticed a severe degradation in regen ability - it was very pronounced and I can definitely point my finger to a specific time it started behaving differently. I've been driving with reduced regen now for the past few weeks, maybe around a month, ever since fall started turning into winter. We've had our warmer days, though, and the warmer weather has not changed it in the slightest. And it's been taking a pretty big hit on my efficiency - not to mention the winter. I'm now lucky to get 50 miles out of a full charge with just 1 bar gone (lost around the middle of this year).

However, the notable point is that the Hx degradation has come to a complete stop, and started reversing! On 10-01-2013, I have a screenshot showing 65.44% "Hlth" with the old version. On 10-11, it was 64.49%. 10-14 saw 64.68% for a second, and on 10-23, it was 63.25%. But on 10-26, it showed 63.54% - it had started improving, and nothing but the regen behavior had changed! Today? 63.68% again, just like a month ago. The first time it's ever actually started trending upwards. The data's a bit incomplete since I don't seem to have any screenshots stored for November - I was only looking back at past screenshots auto-saved to Dropbox for other reasons. I do seem to be missing quite a few, though... I swear I took some in November. :?

The stresses that regenerative braking puts on the battery are similar to those put on it when fast-charging. Charge activity enters from the edges of the cells and propagates through the material in each cell with actual, chemical state changes taking place - so I'd imagine that regeneration combined with acceleration levels each other out quicker, chemically, than the forces put on the cells by quick-charging, but the stresses are there none the less. I do no quick-charging *whatsoever* because no QCs are available in Fresno. Only 3 are on my car's counter, from my 4 visits to the SF Bay and one trip had no QCs I could use without a Blink card.

It seems that the regen "throttling" is being done to protect what I could now pretty accurately guess *is* a "health" figure for the battery, at least, as far as the car is concerned. It's trying to protect itself. Which I think is pretty cool, except that it totally limits my range.

The voltage rise/fall for acceleration/regen demand seems in line with this concept, too. Accelerating has a noticeable voltage drop on the cells, and decelerating (regen) puts the voltages up about 0.1v at most with one glance test I did, since I don't have a mount for the tablet to watch it more often. I imagine it watches these voltage peaks/drops during driving to come up with this Hx figure, and to determine the physical state of the battery. There's a WHOLE lot of lithium-battery research that almost certainly went into the thing.

Amusingly, not having yet come to this conclusion (hadn't yet looked at the data above), I took my Leaf to the dealer today after calling the 1-877-NO-GAS-EV help line (I have rather limited confidence in the dealer... "5-star" battery review a month ago? Really?), and the help line said it was a valid cause for concern since they hadn't been aware of this issue. The dealer, after sitting there for 4 hours, determined there was nothing malfunctioning that they could figure out, even having called the tech line to talk about it. They saw the issue too, but didn't know what to make of it.

As for the regen and the charger/controller, in reply to an earlier post... lol, the charger has nothing to do with the regen system that I can imagine The motor is only an "AC motor" by description, but its windings are directly controlled by a computer, part of the overall "inverter", that can either apply or pull current to/from the motor depending on which direction it wants to apply torque. Applying "negative torque" is regen - it takes the higher voltage out of the motor and feeds it to the battery. Applying positive torque is acceleration - taking the higher voltage from the battery and applying it to the motor. It could, theoretically, pull in 80kW of regen power if that wouldn't smoke the battery pack. :lol:

 

[DaveEV]

My thoughts/notes on regen - note that I have not seen any drastic changes in regen, but my Hx value has been declining very steadily from July (~72%) to now (~67%). Given how quickly Hx seems to be learned, if you are seeing big changes, perhaps you are seeing something else going on? I would guess either a loose connection in the HV battery pack or wiring somewhere, or perhaps a weak module. Your pack balance looks OK, though.

1. P3227 update for whatever reason ended up reducing max regen levels. If it was a mistake - it's probably due to an error introduced by the change in temperature compensation tables since there definitely is no longer any "winter bounce" in reported GID counts or Ah readings. If it was not a mistake - it was done in a vain attempt to slow the rate of capacity loss.

2. Max regen is speed dependent. Car seems to allow maximum regen around 20 mph. Below that regen tapers off. Above that regen tapers off. Very noticable at freeway speeds where you lose 2 bubbles of regen with cool (60-70F) battery temps and a SOC in the 70-80% range. With the battery around 60F and SOC around 60%, I can get just over 20 kW of regen at 20 mph, but at 60 mph, just over 10 kW. I really hate the regen taper at higher speeds, especially now with the P3227 reduction in regen along with cooler weather!

3. Max regen is temperature dependent. To keep all bubbles at 80% SOC and max regen of 25 kW, it seems to take battery temps of at least 75F if not higher. At battery temps of 65F, max regen is about 5 kW less (20 kW). At battery temps of 60F, max regen is less than 20 kW.

4. Max regen is SOC dependent. The lower the SOC, the higher the max regen. Post P3227 update, with the battery in the 65-70F range, it seems that SOC has to be very low, in the LBW range to see a full 30 kW of regen.

I would love to see what max regen values are for different cars with different Ah/Hx readings. Hopefully Turbo3 can get some sort of feature into LEAF Spy that makes that easy.

 

[TickTock]

<snip>
Suddenly, around 63% "Hx", I noticed a severe degradation in regen ability
<snip>
However, the notable point is that the Hx degradation has come to a complete stop, and started reversing!
<snip>
It seems that the regen "throttling" is being done to protect what I could now pretty accurately guess *is* a "health" figure for the battery, at least, as far as the car is concerned. It's trying to protect itself.

My battery was at 62.4 Hx/Xfactor when it went in for the P3227 update in July and I didn't start noticing the drop in regen until several months later. Also, my Hx is still declining (presently at 45.4) - no sign upward movement. I can't pin the exact time regen declined, but I recently changed my friction brake monitor gain and threshold because I was unable to *ever* brake without it chirping at me (I used to be able to drive all the way to work without a chirp - IOW, without almost any friction applied). It will be interesting to see if it recovers when the temperature warms up. Many of the sensors in the Leaf have very long time constants (the cap bars, for example, take months to settle) so a couple of warm days may not be enough to see a change.

 

[FalconFour]

Huh! Interesting data here. I'd expect lithium batteries to slow down over time - I've worked with quite a few, directly, at the cell/balancing level, but on much smaller scales. But I wouldn't think it would come crashing down all at once like Hx has been showing. TickTock, you've got data all the way back to July for Hx (Xfactor)! I must've missed the beta version for a while. You also got your P3227 update done about the same time as I did - did you start noticing the regen change around the end of October, beginning of November-ish? I mentioned that I noticed a specific change in mine, but I should've mentioned I don't have an exact date - just that it happened "all at once".

I still think it's odd that Hx has shown such a strong correlation in mine with the regen behavior. Geting that P3227 update done on TickTock's took a pretty hefty 10% hit on the Hx figure, and the figure seems to have slowed down and stabilized a little in the past few months. If that lines up with the same time period regen has been throttled, I think it still lends itself to this theory... just that yours isn't recovering as well as mine is. My Leaf is the 2011 which sat on a dealer lot, unused, for over a year of its calendar life... so I'd expect it to be in a bit better condition than a typical 2011 Leaf being used every day of its life since it rolled off the truck.

Seriously would love to know more about that "cheep" friction brake warning, though. It drives me NUTS not knowing when the friction brakes are being used... and I've bugged Turbo3 more than a courteous number of times about implementing some of the brake info displays he'd been developing :lol:

 

[TickTock]

Yeah, the Hx did take a big hit with the update. The SOH also increased 3% so they definitely fiddled with some stuff. I keep full logs of all canbus traffic periodically so when GregH found the Hx and Ah parameters, I was able to go back to those old logs and tease them out. I really can't say when I realized my regen was off. I am pretty unobservant - even by male standards. However since I have all those logs (including logs of the trip to and from the dealer for the update) I plan to dig those up for analysis. I figure if I plot speed, SOC, brake pedal, regen, and friction for those trips and trips following the update, I should be able to determine when my regen behavior changed. Just been a bit more busy than usual the last few weeks so haven't gotten to it yet.

 

[TickTock]

OK, I wrote a script to parse my logs and plot my max regen at speeds <30mph, 30-45, 45-60, and 60 up. Unfortunately, I took a hiatus on logging between 8/10/2013 and 10/24/2013. Somewhere in that window I lost my regen. Up until my 8/10 log, I saw up to 40kW regen at 45mph (note that I got the SW update a month earlier so I can conclusively say that the loss of regen was not immediate after the update). All my (three) logs since 10/24 never show over 15kW at that speed.

 

[TickTock]

Seriously would love to know more about that "cheep" friction brake warning, though. It drives me NUTS not knowing when the friction brakes are being used... and I've bugged Turbo3 more than a courteous number of times about implementing some of the brake info displays he'd been developing :lol:

Looks like he is working on it (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285&start=249). Not sure if he intends to add the audible monitor or not, though.

 

[DaveEV]

OK, I wrote a script to parse my logs and plot my max regen at speeds <30mph, 30-45, 45-60, and 60 up. Unfortunately, I took a hiatus on logging between 8/10/2013 and 10/24/2013. Somewhere in that window I lost my regen. Up until my 8/10 log, I saw up to 40kW regen at 45mph (note that I got the SW update a month earlier so I can conclusively say that the loss of regen was not immediate after the update). All my (three) logs since 10/24 never show over 15kW at that speed.

Very interesting. I suspect that it's a combination of the update along with cooler temperatures - the update makes the car pull regen more aggressively with cooler temps.

Did you happen to log battery temps along with regen? Would be interesting to plot that. I am seeing a drastic change in available regen from 75F battery temps to 65F battery temps.

 

[FalconFour]

Interesting - my degradation happened in that same time-frame after the update. I'm still tossed between maybe being something that Nissan "pushed" to certain test cars*... or maybe being a counter that started freewheeling unpredictably after that update which was only a matter of time before it started impacting car behavior like this.

I don't think speed is a direct factor, though - only time since start-of-regen, and the behavior exhibited on the battery. The trend would indicate the motor amps hitting a negative ceiling at every deceleration point, where that ceiling gradually increases as the deceleration continues, but never reaching the full regen potential before the deceleration stops. It would, of course, peak at the 15-30mph part of any deceleration, because that's where the regen had been going for a while, building up that ceiling at each stop.

What's interesting, though, is given how much "clear and open space" the lithium cells have in their mid-range, why regen would be so impeded all the way until the battery is near dead (30% SOC and lower). At that point, every day I drive, it's nearly brought back all its regen potential and it only hits its ceiling at the high end.

If we could put up a Leaf on a dynamo that could apply power to the wheels (not just apply resistance)... well, for one thing that'd need a pretty big power source. Instead, have two Leafs on connected rollers. One accelerates, the other will regen. Of course, both would have to be chained in both directions. :lol: Anyway, I'm sure we could get some better testing done, but this is the behavior I see in my driving - the "regen ceiling" working in "sessions", and lowering back down during acceleration and steady motion. It'll almost always come back to zero, starting the whole cycle over again, needing to build regen back up over time at every stop.

I do NOT think this ramp-up behavior is grounded in the reality of lithium chemistry, though. If the battery could support that regen capacity at that level, it should snap right to it, not build up to it. I would be OK with my regen being limited all throughout the SOC%, as that would make more sense. The "building-up to it", though... hurts my range a lot. :? The overflow is just lost on friction brakes until the controller makes up its mind.

* - it's entirely possible, as Carwings probably has *many* undocumented functions that work at the network level that we don't interact with on the website. They would also be inaccessible to us, as users operate at a junction point between the two networks (internet and Carwings). Nissan just needs to do updates at a dealer due to the nature of at least 10 different systems without a central hub programmed to do those updates. Making little changes that are already hard-wired, though - as well as reading information we don't see online, is well within the reach of the car's TCM, I think.

 

[TickTock]

OK, I wrote a script to parse my logs and plot my max regen at speeds <30mph, 30-45, 45-60, and 60 up. Unfortunately, I took a hiatus on logging between 8/10/2013 and 10/24/2013. Somewhere in that window I lost my regen. Up until my 8/10 log, I saw up to 40kW regen at 45mph (note that I got the SW update a month earlier so I can conclusively say that the loss of regen was not immediate after the update). All my (three) logs since 10/24 never show over 15kW at that speed.

Very interesting. I suspect that it's a combination of the update along with cooler temperatures - the update makes the car pull regen more aggressively with cooler temps.

Did you happen to log battery temps along with regen? Would be interesting to plot that. I am seeing a drastic change in available regen from 75F battery temps to 65F battery temps.

I'm not so sure the sw update has anything to do with it. I looked a a few log files from last year this time and I cannot find any with over 18kW regen at 45mph (or higher) but plenty during the summer. Not conclusive, mind you - it is possible I was just driving extra gently - but I am starting to have doubts if the update really changed anything.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I'm not so sure the sw update has anything to do with it. I looked a a few log files from last year this time and I cannot find any with over 18kW regen at 45mph (or higher) but plenty during the summer. Not conclusive, mind you - it is possible I was just driving extra gently - but I am starting to have doubts if the update really changed anything.

oh oh, u better duck! i blogged the same thing and got panned for it. i see less ability to hit max regen but the overall amount of power gained is about the same including a period (aug 1 to sept 15, 2013) when the regen was higher than the year before (got update july 5)

i think (as others have suggested) the regen profile has been changed to possibly lower stress on the pack to increase longevity

as far as how i determined regen, i simply used carwing stats since that is all i have but in an effort to prove that the update did reduce my regen i ended up charting dozens of overlapping time periods and saw no significant changes for any of the time period from March 2012 to the present (before that, i was working in town and most of my driving was at street speeds. since then, most of my driving is at freeway speeds)
i wonder if degradation is also playing a small part in changing the regen as well?

 

[FalconFour]

:?

I'd think whining about lost regen would be much more common if age is the only deciding factor - with age affecting internal resistance, internal resistance affecting voltage under charge and load, and voltage affecting regen behavior. It stands to reason that the algorithm for deciding "regen capacity" is decided based on voltage - which would be why a fully charged pack can't do very much regen. But it's still very strange that a near-empty pack can't pull in full power. Mine was at 1 bar today and still not showing all 5 dots available, even pulling up to a stop. Which just barely kicked the last available dot "active" - but not utilized - by the end of the stop, but gone again when I accelerated. We may not be facing something that was directly caused by the update, but likely influenced by it at least.

TickTock, I'm curious, and I'd like to start my own logging... what equipment are you set up with for monitoring, logging, and reporting this stuff? Sorry if you've posted about it elsewhere, but the forum format is a little non-conducive to cross-referencing. Is it all manually entered? I might have to finally bite the bullet and pick up a mount for my tablet so I keep Leaf Spy running more often... heck, being a contributor to the thing (hate to brag and don't mean to imply I did much more than Photoshop work, but I came up with the concept for the graphical driving screen which became a paid-version feature ), I should poke Turbo3 for a full version of the app too It'd probably come in real handy here.

Might be an uphill battle to get Nissan to fix the algorithm, but I really think the ramp-up and reset behavior is the big problem here. If the battery controller determines that a certain amount of current can be applied to charging the pack in its current SOC%, it should remember that and not lower the "regen ceiling" just by accelerating. I don't see how that affects the lithium chemistry in a way that reduces its stress. :?

 

[TickTock]

oh oh, u better duck! i blogged the same thing and got panned for it. i wonder if degradation is also playing a small part in changing the regen as well?

Thanks for the warning! Won't be the first time (nor the last)

:?
TickTock, I'm curious, and I'd like to start my own logging... what equipment are you set up with for monitoring, logging, and reporting this stuff?

There are two devices I know of which support logging: The original gid-meter and the CANary. There are actually three canbusses available for monitoring on the OBD port. EVcan (for battery details), CARcan (for most other car information including some overlap with EVcan), and the AVcan (for the audio video console). Not a whole lot is know about the AVcan yet, but if you want to ensure you get all car related information, you are going to want to monitor at least the EVcan and the CARcan simultaneously. That is the primary reason I built the CANary - it has two independent canbus controllers. Before that I had to choose between monitoring the battery (EVcan) or monitoring by braking/regen (CARcan) but couldn't do both simultaneously. However, that will require building your own - I was afraid that selling kits or pre-assembled units could open me up to lawsuit if ever a device malfunctioned and caused an accident so I am happy to share my learnings, code, etc, on the wiki but stop there. robot256 is planning on making some improvements to the design - maybe he would be willing to sell you one of the boards (most PCB houses have a minimum order). JeremyW has been doing some good work with a commercially available PCAN and free-trial CAN Trace but that would require a laptop/convertible/tablet.

 

[brettcgb]

I recently had my car software updated and it seems that the regenerative breaking performance has been curtailed significantly. It can't seem to get more than 15-20 kW at the most even with the brakes full on and freeway speeds. Before, I could get the full 30 kW whenever prudent, but now it's just not doing it. Usually it won't go above 10 or 15 at all.

Is this the P3227 update? If so, yes, it's a known and unwelcome artifact.

I do not think updates caused this.

My car (2012) hasn't seen a dealer since January (annual battery inspection), but in the last week or two started limiting regen power to about 18kW. It used to go to 30kW easily. Now it rarely exceeds 20kW, and then only only for a second.

The average temperature has recently dropped here in Phoenix. This last weekend brought with it the first freeze warning of the season.

I have already lost 3 battery bars, and suspect I'm going to loose a fourth in the next month or so. The car has about 24k miles on it, approaching 2 years age.

It's about time for the next annual battery inspection....

I also suspect that DCFC is also impacted, but haven't had one in several weeks.

I have read through part of this discussion. I do not believe the DCFC reduces power until the battery reaches about 75%. The first summer I had my car, I recorded lap times to reach each 5% starting from 30% to 90% when the charger stopped. Below 70%, about 3 minutes was required for each 5%. Between 75% and 90%, this time increased to 6 minutes.

 

[DaveEV]

My car (2012) hasn't seen a dealer since January (annual battery inspection), but in the last week or two started limiting regen power to about 18kW. It used to go to 30kW easily. Now it rarely exceeds 20kW, and then only only for a second.

The average temperature has recently dropped here in Phoenix. This last weekend brought with it the first freeze warning of the season.

I have already lost 3 battery bars, and suspect I'm going to loose a fourth in the next month or so. The car has about 24k miles on it, approaching 2 years age.

Well, that's similar to my car which is only down 1 bar, but has the P3227 update. Yesterday with battery temp around 55F (probably much warmer than yours), I also only got about 20 kW max down to 50% SOC. At 50-55 mph it wouldn't do more than 15 kW.

I noticed immediately after the P3227 update that my car would not peg the regen meter any longer (would max out around 25 kW) even in warm weather until the SOC was well below 50% - and that was with 12 bars. And I would lose a regen bubble immediately as well on a 80% charge. Didn't do that the first two years until cooler weather hit.

As the weather cooled off, the limits have just gone down more. The first two years I never saw less than 1 unavailable regen bubble at 80% SOC or less. Now missing 2-3 is common. Seeing 5 regen bubbles is rare and then it's very rarely lit up under regen.

 

[johnrhansen]

Let me ask this: during all these occurrences of limited regen, is it accompanied by a missing double circle around that green indicator dot? That's what happens on mine, but it only ocuurs with very low temperatures or very high soc. When it's not available the double circle goes away.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Let me ask this: during all these occurrences of limited regen, is it accompanied by a missing double circle around that green indicator dot? That's what happens on mine, but it only ocuurs with very low temperatures or very high soc. When it's not available the double circle goes away.

the double circles tells you what could be available during discharge or regen. now that the Pac NW has "warmed" up to only 10 degrees below normal, a 2013 LEAFer is getting some pretty interesting results on his regen including a full 30 KW at as much as 80% SOC.

now, i just got home with SOC at 50% and one double circle missing (the next one flashing on and off) and could do no better than about 20 KW but my batt temps were all in the low 40's... so guessing his batteries were simply warmer than mine

 

[brettcgb]

Let me ask this: during all these occurrences of limited regen, is it accompanied by a missing double circle around that green indicator dot? That's what happens on mine, but it only ocuurs with very low temperatures or very high soc. When it's not available the double circle goes away.

The missing double bubbles were what initially tipped me off that something might be happening... I had always seen 5 double bubbles for all SOC<80%, all temperatures. Suddenly, I was never getting more than 3. They didnt gradually go away - one night I had 5, the next morning I couldn't get more then 3. The energy display confirmed my fears.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I noticed immediately after the P3227 update that my car would not peg the regen meter any longer (would max out around 25 kW) even in warm weather until the SOC was well below 50% - and that was with 12 bars. And I would lose a regen bubble immediately as well on a 80% charge. Didn't do that the first two years until cooler weather hit.

As the weather cooled off, the limits have just gone down more. The first two years I never saw less than 1 unavailable regen bubble at 80% SOC or less. Now missing 2-3 is common. Seeing 5 regen bubbles is rare and then it's very rarely lit up under regen.

Yes, the difference pre and post update is stark. With an SOC of 40% and a mild battery temperature of 12ºC I was losing one regen circle at low speeds and two at high speeds. This simply didn't happen at low SOC last year. I can't positively rule out that it is some sort of artifact of a degraded battery — I'm down 12% — but that strikes me as very unlikely.

As for the speed effect, I noticed that I lost that second regen bubble between 30 and 35 mph with a battery temp of about 9ºC in the 30-40% SOC range. I had to slow almost to stopping to get it back again, after which it would disappear again when I got back to 30-35 mph.

Now that my battery is much colder (1-2ºC) I haven't been able to pay attention to regen circles and speed because I am having to drive snow and ice and it requires too much concentration. But I do notice that I am routinely down two circles at speed at an SOC of <50%. This just didn't happen before the update so far as I can recollect. Reduced regen was mostly at very cold temperatures, with a battery temp of well below freezing (two to three bars).

If it was just me I would figure it was a quirk of my car. But this problem got reported by many others after the update. Why should the LEAF have reduced regen at 40% SOC and a 12ºC battery temp? Makes no sense, which is why I think it was a software flub in the update.

 

[FalconFour]

Yeah, mine's indicated by a single-bubble outline instead of a double-bubble outline as the primary indicator that my car's shafting me on regen.

Today saw some unusual behavior, though. Now at 63.8% "Hx" again, and a constant 80% "SOH" which has never changed since the figure appeared. Today got a little mid-day half charge from noon til around 2PM, and after that charge, battery temp was up to the mid 65's, bringing the 5th temp bar back up. Almost all day, I had three bubbles available which meant I almost always reached the 4th bubble at the end of the stop. By the end of the day I almost had all my normal regen back again (all 5 bubbles available, but hard to juggle since the brake needs to be pushed to get there, balancing friction/regen), with the low battery warning of course.

I tried logging with Leaf Spy, but the log output was too sparse and didn't have the critical details like true pack voltage (not cell-by-cell), and the motor/battery amps readings. I've got the hardware to build my own meter (I actually had an Arduino-based Gid/amp meter built, coded, and working for a while!), but I really hate reinventing the wheel. Maybe I can patch that together with Bluetooth and see if I can get the EV-CAN bus stuff displayed and logged on my tablet, somehow. Yet another reason I should get into Android programming...