Warning-watch out for radical anti-electric thinkers

[GaslessInSeattle]

I have to say I'm beginning to share this cynicism. I get the sinking feeling that L2 is being placed willy nilly without solid scientific reasoning and the placement of at least some of what is being put in today is going to turn out to be a waste of precious public funds. IMHO, L3 is going to be the most viable public form of charging and much of the L2 at shops is going to mostly be a convenience/amenity perk. just seeing what is happening with the Blink maintenance already, I hate to think what it's going to be like maintaining millions of L2's vs thousands of L3's. Don't get me wrong, L2 can be very valuable, when placed where cars are parked for substantial periods of time (work/park and rides etc), not where people run in for a quick 15 or 20 minute errand.

My solution, at some point in the future (I hope), will be to use QC almost exclusively for my public charging, and leave the parking lot L2's to the less capable "electric" vehicles, that require them.

But I think the inherent absurdity, of putting mass numbers of L2's in parking lots, as a means of recharging BEVs after they use their, cheaper, cleaner, more convenient "private" station charge, will become apparent.

And probably, lead to most of the L2's now being installed, to be abandoned in the future.

It's a shame, that much of the billions of dollars spent on these L2s, will have been wasted.

 

[padamson1]

Some folks here need to take a hard look in the mirror and really think about your own attitudes and your respect for others.

[The summary of nasty quotes from thread edited out]

Whether we asked for it or not, as early adopters, we are the stewards of tomorrow's technology. We aren't going to win the hearts and minds of others if we can't engage in constructive conversation with the random strangers, even less on this forum where we, alone, set the tone.

G.P. foobert!

The wording of original post sounded more like misunderstanding than belligerence, up until the TCBY part, but I wasn't there so I don't really know.

I drive an EV, I may believe its a better mode of transportation, but I don't think it makes me better than people who don't drive EVs. The day I start thinking that way is the day I become no better than the FOX news watchers I dislike for believing FOX is only about news. While I believe most of the comments on the thread were constructive suggestions on improving the dialogue that GreenEV had with this woman, foobert's points out an animosity that only leads to people being alienated and not wanting to listen.

Dialogue means talking and listening. That doesn't happen without mutual respect and respect is rarely earned by getting in somebody's face or talking 'down' to them.

 

[Herm]

Oftentimes older ladies will get set in their ways, not likely that you will convince them otherwise but a bit of humor helps .. you never know, it may happen to you also.

Imagine 30 years from now when AGW is conclusively disproved, you will still walk around muttering when you see a CO2 polluter

 

[TomT]

+10!

I have to say I'm beginning to share this cynicism. I get the sinking feeling that L2 is being placed willy nilly without solid scientific reasoning and the placement of at least some of what is being put in today is going to turn out to be a waste of precious public funds. IMHO, L3 is going to be the most viable public form of charging and much of the L2 at shops is going to mostly be a convenience/amenity perk. just seeing what is happening with the Blink maintenance already, I hate to think what it's going to be like maintaining millions of L2's vs thousands of L3's. Don't get me wrong, L2 can be very valuable, when placed where cars are parked for substantial periods of time (work/park and rides etc), not where people run in for a quick 15 or 20 minute errand.

 

[Smidge204]

Oftentimes older ladies will get set in their ways, not likely that you will convince them otherwise but a bit of humor helps .. you never know, it may happen to you also.

Imagine 30 years from now when AGW is conclusively disproved, you will still walk around muttering when you see a CO2 polluter

If anyone else had posted this, I'd congratulate them on the very subtle (if unintentional) joke. But as it stands I feel a little sad that this comment was probably 100% serious. :|

IMHO, L3 is going to be the most viable public form of charging and much of the L2 at shops is going to mostly be a convenience/amenity perk. ... I hate to think what it's going to be like maintaining millions of L2's vs thousands of L3's. Don't get me wrong, L2 can be very valuable, when placed where cars are parked for substantial periods of time (work/park and rides etc), not where people run in for a quick 15 or 20 minute errand.

Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW). The SAE version of L3 is 100+ amps (24kW and up) which is not finalized yet. If you meant DC Quick Charge then you really shouldn't refer to it as simply "L3" since that can get confusing.

At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC.

Even at the current LEAF's max 3.3kW draw, it's an extra mile of range every 5 minutes or so. It's a relatively minimal investment with broad applicability (all current production EVs/PHEVs have the J1772 socket 'cept Tesla AFAIK). "Willy nilly" is pretty much exactly how they need to be placed, because daily travel on that level is going to be extremely difficult to pin down statistically.

On the other hand, I think the placement of QC stations (Call them L3DC?) is what really needs to be carefully considered. There is a large investment, not everyone can use them right now, and they are optimally located where people will only be a short time. Based on info gleaned from this thread they seem to be placed at motels and the like. This is exactly wrong IMHO - if you're patronizing a motel, you're probably going to be there 6+ hours and L2 is what you really want. I think the one at the truck stop was appropriate, at least...
=Smidge=

 

[edatoakrun]

Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW)...

At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC...

Clear as mud.

~20 kW is "better" than ~50 kW?

 

[mkjayakumar]

I believe L2 at office, shopping strips malls, plazas, hospitals are perfectly fine. It is called "Opportunity charging". I am there for half hour and I get around 6 miles of range, then I go to a restaurant, I am there for two hours and I get another 25 miles of range. I go to the doctors, I am there for an hour and get another 12 miles, and then I go to the hair dresser and 6 miles.

In the end I can get all the work done in the City without worrying about getting stranded and also without having to make a stop only for charging. I get my work done while my car is getting the juice, even if it is only 2 miles juice at that stop.

QC chargers are needed on the highway rest stops (L2 doesn't cut it) and L2s throughout the city.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I believe L2 at office, shopping strips malls, plazas, hospitals are perfectly fine. It is called "Opportunity charging". I am there for half hour and I get around 6 miles of range, then I go to a restaurant, I am there for two hours and I get another 25 miles of range. I go to the doctors, I am there for an hour and get another 12 miles, and then I go to the hair dresser and 6 miles.

In the end I can get all the work done in the City without worrying about getting stranded and also without having to make a stop only for charging. I get my work done while my car is getting the juice, even if it is only 2 miles juice at that stop.

QC chargers are needed on the highway rest stops (L2 doesn't cut it) and L2s throughout the city.

"+10"

have to agree since any argument for any kind of charging is EQUALLY valid.

we are not in a "pick one" scenario. that is not what we want here. we want a "go here" and choose based on each personal need and L2 plays just as vital a role here..

we definitely need to get away from "L2 installs blocked L3" since that is 100% completely untrue.

Blink has a $100 million budget to install L2 and L3. they have spent $33 million so they are not out of cash and if not for the L2's we would have NOTHING.

the only L3 i have is one i have to make an appointment to use. not exactly convenient and the fact that its 6 miles from my house makes it even less convenient. i want one 50 miles from my house! but that is still in the works but L2 can AND does work for me.

i charged for first time at home last night in a week. granted not a heavy driving week, only did 171 miles but i charged at L2 when it was convenient and so what if i only got 10 miles of range? the random charging sessions i did get in (some as little as 14 minutes) still allowed me to drive much farther than the Leaf allows.

what we need is (and i will say it again) is L2 in every parking lot. L3 in a 10-20 mile grid (5 miles would be better which means one is never more than 2½ miles out of the way...but that is asking a lot) and mandatory L1+ charging for all employee parking.

 

[amtoro]

Getting a free charge while shopping is comparable in principle and probably cost to the store, as receiving food samples at Sam's Club while shopping on a Saturday; it keeps you in the store longer.

 

[AndyH]

I have to say I'm beginning to share this cynicism. I get the sinking feeling that L2 is being placed willy nilly without solid scientific reasoning and the placement of at least some of what is being put in today is going to turn out to be a waste of precious public funds. IMHO, L3 is going to be the most viable public form of charging and much of the L2 at shops is going to mostly be a convenience/amenity perk. just seeing what is happening with the Blink maintenance already, I hate to think what it's going to be like maintaining millions of L2's vs thousands of L3's. Don't get me wrong, L2 can be very valuable, when placed where cars are parked for substantial periods of time (work/park and rides etc), not where people run in for a quick 15 or 20 minute errand.

My solution, at some point in the future (I hope), will be to use QC almost exclusively for my public charging, and leave the parking lot L2's to the less capable "electric" vehicles, that require them.

But I think the inherent absurdity, of putting mass numbers of L2's in parking lots, as a means of recharging BEVs after they use their, cheaper, cleaner, more convenient "private" station charge, will become apparent.

And probably, lead to most of the L2's now being installed, to be abandoned in the future.

It's a shame, that much of the billions of dollars spent on these L2s, will have been wasted.

I may be off the mark here, but it seems like we have the opportunity to witness evolution in progress. The "L2 Organism" is young yet and maybe has too many arms for its own good. Those will balance as the process continues.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...
Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW). The SAE version of L3 is 100+ amps (24kW and up) which is not finalized yet. If you meant DC Quick Charge then you really shouldn't refer to it as simply "L3" since that can get confusing.

At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC.

If using the terms L1/L2/L3 is truly this vague, then we should stop using the terms. I'm assuming the terms will be taken in context of today's chargers and EVSE's.

Even at the current LEAF's max 3.3kW draw, it's an extra mile of range every 5 minutes or so. It's a relatively minimal investment with broad applicability (all current production EVs/PHEVs have the J1772 socket 'cept Tesla AFAIK). "Willy nilly" is pretty much exactly how they need to be placed, because daily travel on that level is going to be extremely difficult to pin down statistically.

On the other hand, I think the placement of QC stations (Call them L3DC?) is what really needs to be carefully considered. There is a large investment, not everyone can use them right now, and they are optimally located where people will only be a short time. Based on info gleaned from this thread they seem to be placed at motels and the like. This is exactly wrong IMHO - if you're patronizing a motel, you're probably going to be there 6+ hours and L2 is what you really want. I think the one at the truck stop was appropriate, at least...
=Smidge=

Well, we've got a plethora of public L2 here in Seattle and while I dreamed about it initially, I'm realizing now that it's here, that walking even a few blocks out of my way to charge, particularly with two kids in tow, is just not compelling for how little a difference it makes in range, so I mostly don't use public L2. L3 on the other hand is something I'm willing to drive out of my way for because it's fast enough that I can wait for it. Maybe it's that home L2 is nearly adequate enough for most of my driving in town that the only times I need something else it's when I'm in a hurry. I predict that this experiment that is the EV project is going to show something surprising, that aside from home/work charging, folks will tend to supplement with L3 as needed. I think the experiment is worth it, even if some public funding is wasted to find this out because a viable model for expansion will be formed and replicated, reducing waste overall. I do wish we were starting with L3 and filling in with L2 where it's actually needed. I'm afraid that Ecotality is focussing on L2 because it's low lying fruit, an easy way to expend the public funding quickly when it's L3 that is much more sorely needed outside the home and work. I'm afraid that L2 is essentially distracting focus and funding away from the much more challenging and rewarding public infrastructure of quick chargers. I suspect that the overall need for public charging beyond one's own garage, will be much smaller than many envision and can be met with a remarkably small number of fast chargers strategically placed.

I think the biggest issue with L2 public opportunity charging is dedicating that much parking to a special group, leading to animosity. Socially, until the majority of cars are EV's, it's going to cause unnecessary tension, fueling political polarity. I believe that the push for mass L2 would be much better timed after a back bone of L3 was in place and then only after many more EV's are on the road.

 

[davewill]

...Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW). The SAE version of L3 is 100+ amps (24kW and up) which is not finalized yet. If you meant DC Quick Charge then you really shouldn't refer to it as simply "L3" since that can get confusing.

At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC.

If using the terms L1/L2/L3 is truly this vague, then we should stop using the terms. I'm assuming the terms will be taken in context of today's chargers and EVSE's. ...

L1 and L2 are fine. Just the term "L3" is confusing and incorrect. It doesn't apply to CHAdeMO at all.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Well, if the arms end up not connected to the body, it will be a waste. I think we will end up with a more functional organism if we start with the backbone of DC QC's and add appendages as needed. With each new model year will come advancements in the car's chargers and periodic increases in battery capacity. As soon as the batteries are big enough, L2 charging may become totally obsolete other than longish term parking, it practically already is. With much larger batteries, people will be able to do long distance travel and DC QC's will become even more essential.

I think that as a group, we should focus our requests for additional public charging on DC QC's and not get to distracted on pushing for more random L2 placement. Let's not let regulators of the public network get confused in thinking L2 is adequate, they need to hear from us that QC's are sorely needed. the private sector is going to keep adding more L2 because it makes them look green and it's relatively easy and cheep to put them in. Public funding is needed for the QC's because they are expensive and take a big push to get installed.

The more logical this is, the less animosity there will be from naysayers.

...
I may be off the mark here, but it seems like we have the opportunity to witness evolution in progress. The "L2 Organism" is young yet and maybe has too many arms for its own good. Those will balance as the process continues.

 

[GRA]

FWIW, Here's how I think the distribution should go: At work, for employees mostly L1s (off peak only) plus some L2s for employees who need all the range of the L2 to get home, and for visitors. L1s should be free or reduced price compared to L2, which should employ TOU pricing. L2s for employees should be charged a higher rate, visitors can be charged likewise or comped.

L1/L2s at apartment complexes/garages/parking lots/hotels/motels/campgrounds/trailheads for PHEVs and BEVs charging overnight. L2s at locations where people will spend at least 1/2 hour (I'm assuming at least 6.6 kw will become standard); although I appreciate them doing it, I don't get Walgreen's installing them. Movie theaters, restaurants/day use trailheads/picnic areas etc. and other destinations where a business wants to encourage customers to stay longer and spend more.

L3s for enroute charging along major highways, especially at intersections, plus some in each major city.

 

[FairwoodRed]

George,

I respect your opinion, but I also disagree with it. I don’t think we have near enough public L2 chargers here in Seattle. There are none near where I buy groceries. None near my wife’s work. The one closest to my work is four blocks away and not open 24-7. The one closest to my movie theater is ¾ of a mile away. In short, I wouldn’t describe it as a plethora. Like you, I think that walking more than a couple blocks out of my way is a compelling reason not to charge.

Unlike you, home L2 is often not enough for my driving needs. Every week, I find myself thinking “if only there was a charger here…”. I can, and do, meet my needs by rescheduling trips, late day charging at home, aggressive conservation of power, and driving my back up ICE. I’d rather not do any of that, but I have to until there are more chargers. I could put L2, and even L1 to good use today, if it was available nearer me. I think that I’ll like L3 charging a lot, but I worry that the cost will wipe out any benefits that I would see.

I heartily agree that dedicated EV parking is only going to breed animosity when those spots are usually placed front and center. I’m quite disappointed by others on this board and another board that I read, who encourage taking angry action against cars parked near a charger (no law in WA). Only a little of this and the Leaf will get the same bad reputation that the Prius has. Public opinion really does matter and polarizing confrontations by those with evangelical zeal will only hurt that opinion.

While I’ve meandered way off topic, let me bring it back by saying I’m more worried about the harm my fellow Leaf owners are doing, than any incidental vandalism. Insurance will cover my car repairs, but not the higher cost of living if we don’t get more people off oil.

 

[Volt3939]

... "Do you have to pay for that? ...

I got that exact question from a pilot when I was plugging in down at the local airfield. He was driving a Prius out of the gated small plane parking area, and was upset that he had to get out to close the gate, so it was said in an irritable tone.

I cheerily told him "No, this station does not have any way to charge people, only cars!" I told him that currently the charge stations that do have the ability to debit your credit card are only allowed to charge for the time, not the actual power. Now private pilots are not our typical Wal-Mart shopper, so he understood right away, because he asked what current I could draw from the EVSE. That led to a discussion of the newer 6.6KW Leaf charger and the PIP's draw. He concluded that the current crop of 3.3KW chargers would get "royally screwed" by the hourly rates that some have seen, and that there should be some changes in the law to allow sales by the actual KWh consumed. If another car had not opened the gate behind him I'm sure we would have shot the breeze for a while more... :roll:

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

... I think that I’ll like L3 charging a lot, but I worry that the cost will wipe out any benefits that I would see. ...

I have a feeling that as soon as you get your hands on a CHAdeMO charger, your feeling will change... being able to actually watch the charge increase as you wait is a beautiful thing... and L2 charging for a couple bucks an hour is more expensive than what L3 will be from the sounds of it. my point is, if you had L3 within a few miles of one another in metro areas, it would be worth driving to, even 10 minutes of charging would make a substantial difference in your range. the only way to get L2 in enough places to make it work for all of us on the fly is to put in millions of them and I just don't see that happening. Reliance on L2 charging also requires erring on the side of high SOC, you have to simply charge ever chance you get just on the chance you might need it. fast charging will give you the peace of mind to not charge when you don't actually need to.

 

[Smidge204]

Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW)... At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC...

Clear as mud.

~20 kW is "better" than ~50 kW?

Depending on the situation, yes.

At full L2, there is less battery heating, and the charge rate is mostly continuous from 0-100% (I forget where the constant-voltage transition kicks in...). This is the proverbial tortoise in the charging race. With QC, you get from 0 to 80% very quickly, but charge rate is slow for the remainder if it even tries to top off. This is the hare, quick at first but falls asleep before reaching the finish line! I you're already over 80% charge, all the advantages of QC are lost.

At the end of the day, a 20kW L3AC charge will refill your LEAF in about an hour - and so will a QC - but the L3AC would probably be a bit more gentle.

I predict that this experiment that is the EV project is going to show something surprising, that aside from home/work charging, folks will tend to supplement with L3 as needed.

This is practically a given, but I still think the emphasis on QC is a bit too strong for a successful EV infrastructure rollout. If you sip a little juice at every stop, you might not need to gulp it all in one stop.

You expressed concern over "waste of precious public funds." Consider two points:

1) For the cost of a single QC station, you can probably install 3 or 4 L2 stations.

2) Any vehicle ('cept Tesla, for now) can use an L2 station. There is no standard for QC, meaning your vehicle might not work with the QC station installed. Neither the Chevrolet Volt nor the Ford Focus EV nor the BYD e6 will be able to use a CHAdeMO unit, and there's no guarantee any other manufacturers will jump on board either. (BMW and Volkswagen are pushing for the modified J1772 connector proposed by SAE last I heard...)

So which is a better use of public funds: A large number of units that are usable by everyone but a bit slower, or a smaller number of units that benefit only a subset of drivers?

I think the biggest issue with L2 public opportunity charging is dedicating that much parking to a special group, leading to animosity. Socially, until the majority of cars are EV's, it's going to cause unnecessary tension, fueling political polarity. I believe that the push for mass L2 would be much better timed after a back bone of L3 was in place and then only after many more EV's are on the road.

On the flip side, one vehicle can inadvertently occupy the QC spot all day and block it for anyone else...
=Smidge=

 

[LEAFfan]

1) For the cost of a single QC station, you can probably install 3 or 4 L2 stations.
2) Any vehicle ('cept Tesla, for now) can use an L2 station.
On the flip side, one vehicle can inadvertently occupy the QC spot all day and block it for anyone else...
=Smidge=

Not anymore...Nissan will have the less than $10K QCs here in not too long.
I've seen Teslas use L2 adapters and use L2s so I'm sure most Tesla drivers have the adapters to use, and one dealer told me that one Tesla driver charged on their QC so they must have had an adapter for that too.
If you're talking about the Blink QCs, they have two connectors, so it would take TWO cars to block use and that's highly unlikely since it takes less than 30 minutes for an 80% charge (set to 90%).

 

[edatoakrun]

Just so we're clear... L2 covers up to 80A at 240V (~20kW)... At full L2 power (assuming the on-board charger can handle it) you're actually doing better than CHADEMO Quick DC...

Clear as mud.

~20 kW is "better" than ~50 kW?

Depending on the situation, yes.

At full L2, there is less battery heating, and the charge rate is mostly continuous from 0-100% (I forget where the constant-voltage transition kicks in...). This is the proverbial tortoise in the charging race. With QC, you get from 0 to 80% very quickly, but charge rate is slow for the remainder if it even tries to top off. This is the hare, quick at first but falls asleep before reaching the finish line! I you're already over 80% charge, all the advantages of QC are lost.

At the end of the day, a 20kW L3AC charge will refill your LEAF in about an hour - and so will a QC - but the L3AC would probably be a bit more gentle...
=Smidge=

Several of the details of your statement above are misleading, disingenuous or just incorrect.

If you want to drive several hundred miles in any 15 to 30 kWh available battery capacity BEV, you will get there hours earlier driving a 50 kW charger Chademo capable vehicle, like the LEAF, rather than the fictional 20 kW J1772, charger vehicle, you describe.