Updated information from ECOtality San Diego 5/26/2011

[ENIAC]

Thanks for the update GroundLoop. It's truly stunning to watch this train wreck in slow motion. Even the L2 installations at Balboa Park are messed up. They are not designated as "EV charging only" and so ICE vehicles are always in those spaces.

 

[ttweed]

Anyone have an explanation as to why it's all come to a stop?

Ummmm, lemmmee see, ahhh.... incompetent management?

TT

 

[jcesare]

Thanks for the update GroundLoop. It's truly stunning to watch this train wreck in slow motion. Even the L2 installations at Balboa Park are messed up. They are not designated as "EV charging only" and so ICE vehicles are always in those spaces.

FYI Balboa Park signage requires action by the city council. It is beyond Ecotality's control. They can't just put up signs. Anyone who is familiar with the history of the park knows that parking issues and traffic planning have been a political football. It's a complicated issue not likely to be resolved any time soon. Absent a state law mandating signage at public EV stations, expect nothing to happen for a long time.

 

[TRONZ]

It is becoming very clear that someone (oil PAC) has gotten to Ecotality through back channels. The good news is that the DOE grant money is only paid out for completed work. So far Eco has only been alloted DOE money for completed residential installations.

I am hoping the increased DOE scrutiny of Ecotality will cause a competitive release of the $100 million grant. In this economy, alot of contractors and business sites would love to compete for these funds.

 

[walterbays]

It is becoming very clear that someone (oil PAC) has gotten to Ecotality through back channels.

I can't believe that. Clean energy is integral to Ecotality's very existence.

The good news is that the DOE grant money is only paid out for completed work. So far Eco has only been alloted DOE money for completed residential installations.

I hope the problem is just that they have been overwhelmed by that part of the job, and will get back on track for the public infrastructure now. I wish that, having given Ecotality a monopoly concession for building public infrastructure, DOE would have also imposed the same requirements for transparency that apply to government agencies.

I am hoping the increased DOE scrutiny of Ecotality will cause a competitive release of the $100 million grant. In this economy, alot of contractors and business sites would love to compete for these funds.

Or, keeping all the infrastructure development private, I wish DOE had chartered two or more competing companies in each region, e.g. Ecotality and Coulomb. And let the more capable company deploy the charging stations and collect the grant money.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Just thought I'd give this thread a September bump.

September 7, Total ECOtality L2 sites in San Diego: 2
Two.
Same as in June.

Fewer if you count the AVCON/SPI chargers yanked out of Costco.

 

[davewill]

Just thought I'd give this thread a September bump.

September 7, Total ECOtality L2 sites in San Diego: 2
Two.
Same as in June.

Better look again. There are three on the map in San Diego county. Four if you count the two Balboa Park installations separately.

 

[KeiJidosha]

So $12m of $100m already spent to date (June 2011). Big allocations;

$1.2m to Roush Manufacturing, Inc to cover Engineering and design for manufacture of Level 2 EVSEs

$2.0m to Ephibian Inc to Design and develop the backend system network infrastructure and software

$1.2m to Nissan North America Inc to Setup data feed from NNA to ECOtality CRM and Nissan LEAF DC Fast Charger ports


http://www.recovery.gov/Transparency/RecipientReportedData/Pages/RecipientProjectSummary508.aspx?AwardIDSUR=58864&vendorstart=2&qtr=2011Q2#vendorawards" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Just thought I'd give this thread a September bump.

September 7, Total ECOtality L2 sites in San Diego: 2
Two.
Same as in June.

Better look again. There are three on the map in San Diego county. Four if you count the two Balboa Park installations separately.

Oh wow! You're right.

I can see the Press Release now.. "50% more installations in San Diego!"

 

[TonyWilliams]

Compares with my mental notes. The one other one that stood out in my mind was his response to Tony around when info will be available. Andy said that an update to the EV Project website with locations was "scheduled for July".

And now it's September......

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Today ECOtality announced that they are adding Houston, TX to their plate.

Which is cool, because this kind of performance must really scale well.
I hope Houston is as excited as San Diego over the prospect of getting one or two EV charging sites in the next two years. Congrats!

 

[wsbca]

UT article - trying to get businesses on board:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/07/businesses-invited-to-host-electric-vehicle-chargi/

The whole even split of charging revenues between Ecotality and the host business thing bothers me - earlier on it was not clear that part of what Ecotality "won" was a future revenue stream based on electricity consumption in addition to being paid to put in the hardware...I vaguely even remember Andy saying out loud that only utilities could charge for electricity...could be dreaming I heard that though, or maybe it was another speaker. Anyway....I wonder if this is what's causing the excruciatingly slow (nonexistent) uptake...perhaps businesses realize that when they must generate and then split revenue, they may have to charge more than customers will actually care to pay.

They seem to be getting desperate - note the quote about the funding source expiring at the end of this year. I really thought the whole idea was that the units would be purchased and spread around/installed using taxpayer money, and businesses could then decide whether to absorb the variable cost (the electricity), or recover some of it, or, sure, maybe try to make money off of it.

What I'm wondering now is - is Ecotality _requiring_ that a revenue-generating (to them) contract be signed? What if a business is willing to put in a charger but doesn't want to charge anything for using it. Is that even allowed? Or do they have to cough up to Ecotality in addition to paying for the juice? Which could be putting them off. It sure seems like something like that must be going on, otherwise there have to be more places that would accept an electricity cost-only, otherwise free charger. Before it was just "identifying sites" where units would be placed, now it's getting businesses to sign on. I envision some stupidity where business X says sure I'll take one, I'll pay for the juice and Ecotality says great...but you also have to pay Ecotality based on how much juice you give away to your customers. And business X says...huh, that doesn't sound so good...no thanks.

I don't suppose anyone's planning on attending the 9/13 event and could find out the truth?

 

[walterbays]

Today ECOtality announced that they are adding Houston, TX to their plate.

Which is cool, because this kind of performance must really scale well.
I hope Houston is as excited as San Diego over the prospect of getting one or two EV charging sites in the next two years. Congrats!

!!

Better make that two or three sites in two years though. Uncharacteristically, Ecotality seems not to have issued a press release on this one, nor does it show up on their map. The Pala Casino installed chargers which should help people make the trip up into the mountains, stay a while, spend some money, recharge, and go home. I've wondered for a long time when we would see the first casino charging stations when I saw the billboards advertising free gasoline if you'd visit the casinos.

http://www.cleanfuelconnection.com/clean-fuel-connection-blog/?p=681

 

[wsbca]

The Pala Casino installed chargers which should help people make the trip up into the mountains, stay a while, spend some money, recharge, and go home. I've wondered for a long time when we would see the first casino charging stations when I saw the billboards advertising free gasoline if you'd visit the casinos.

http://www.cleanfuelconnection.com/clean-fuel-connection-blog/?p=681

So.... free gasoline, and yet according to the underlying article "The re-charge fee at Pala is $4 per hour". Which is $1.06 per kWH. Which is about 33 cents a mile for a Leaf. Which is the equivalent of a Prius owner paying $16 a gallon for gas. Yeah, some incentive. No thanks.

 

[Randy]

$4 per hour is more expensive than us EV'ers might want to see, but Casinos can't get DOE EV Project funding (neither can swimming pools, zoos, golf courses, or aquariums).

http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/110523/ECOTALITY-INC_10-Q/v223773_ex10-2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Snip:
C. Prohibition on Use of Funds
None of the funds provided under this agreement derived from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, Pub. L. 111-5, may be used by any State or local government, or any private entity, for any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, or swimming pool.

So that means Pala had to pay for all of the hardware and installation. They're several thousands of dollars in the red at this point after the installation, so they're just trying to recover it. It would be creative if they had a system in place where you could get EV charging credits by gambling or eating there. Kind of like a parking validation...I'm still hopeful and optimistic that the hosts will get pricing signals from the market and prices will settle in reasonable levels for both sides.

And, of course, in future Leaf models you'll be able to charge at twice the rate. It's going to be an interesting market out there as each host sets prices...

 

[wsbca]

Casinos can't get DOE EV Project funding

Interesting....so Andy is spending his time SELLING blinks to Pala and brokering deals with them to split the revenue from overpriced power, rather than putting the DOE funded infrastructure in place. Pardon my french, but given the lack of progress on the latter front, that's completely effed up. So much so I'm tempted to call a federal whistleblower hotline to ask them to dig in and make sure the hours spent doing that weren't billed to the grant.

 

[Randy]

There's a lot in your response that I don't necessarily agree with, but here's a point to consider:

* Without the Pala chargers, many people in San Diego wouldn't be able to drive their Leaf there and back home on a single charge. Gas car needed.

* With the Pala chargers in place, now those same people CAN drive their Leaf there, grab a little bit of a charge, and make it back home.

I haven't calculated if it would take 1 or 2 or 3 hours charge there for me to do that, but if it makes the difference between driving the Leaf there or not then I'm all for it. Yes, it may cost a few bucks, but it wouldn't have been possible before. So in my book, that's still a victory, even though I'd like to see the prices a little lower.

It's easy to sit back and complain about the lack of public charging. There are a lot of issues at play in the marketplace. Granted, it's through my job at SDG&E, but I'm trying hard to do what I can to help with leads and prospects. I would respectfully ask that anyone else who is interested in public charging do the same. PM them to me if you'd like, and I'll pass them along. There are units in the pipeline, but there is more funding available. Much work has been done, and there is more to go.

The Breakfast Forum on 9/13 is one of the ways we're trying to get more hosts interested...

Thanks, Randy

 

[wsbca]

I'm trying hard to do what I can to help with leads and prospects. I would respectfully ask that anyone else who is interested in public charging do the same.
The Breakfast Forum on 9/13 is one of the ways we're trying to get more hosts interested...

I've been proactively suggesting the EV Project to businesses as well, since mid 2010, and have specifically recommended the 9/13 forum to several who are excellent prospects...my escalating angst is due to what I see as a pronounced shift toward profiteering at the expense of the original intent of the DOE project (which in turn is at MY expense as a taxpayer). Everything suddenly is turning on splitting of charging revenues with Ecotality, which in turn is distorting the nascent market, since enough has to be thrown off to satisfy both the endpoint business and Ecotality....and yet (apparently Pala aside - and I'd truly be interested in how you think that's a legitimate use of Ecotality's current efforts), the equipment is underwritten, the installation is underwritten. For a year or more the Project was being spun as essentially jumpstarting the infrastructure as if it were a public good. And it never happened. And now it looks like it won't be happening (in that way) at all. I'm more interested in it as an economist and a taxpayer than as a Leaf owner - it became clear pretty early on that the need for public charging was something of a fringe luxury, if not an outright canard when it comes to (reasonably, not maximally) effective use of the vehicle. I don't _need_ to charge for a fair price out in the world - but there's no reason such capacity shouldn't exist, given the 100 million dollars being thrown at it.

 

[Randy]

Thanks for sending any interested parties to the 9/13 forum. As I've posted in a separate thread, the registration link is below:

http://theevproject.com/sandiegoforum.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We should have a pretty good group there on Tuesday...Another thing that seems appropriate to bring up as it relates to finances...

Many folks seem to think that the DOE is paying for ALL of the infrastructure, and that isn't true. The DOE funding represents only about half of the total funds for the EV Project (see my link above about 1/3 down the page). There are other ECO investors / stakeholders that have contributed matching funds (and of course they expect an eventual return on that).

What I get from that is that there is an incentive for ALL the major players to want to see the EV Project succeed...

Randy

 

[TonyWilliams]

Many folks seem to think that the DOE is paying for ALL of the infrastructure, and that isn't true. The DOE funding represents only about half of the total funds for the EV Project (see my link above about 1/3 down the page). There are other ECO investors / stakeholders that have contributed matching funds...

My tax money is funding a good chunk of this. Why do you think there is such a lack of information ? Andy told us in May (in Encinitas) that there would be more information, and 6 DC chargers, scores of L2, etc.

Information on a web site doesn't cost much. I honestly don't understand, or even agree with, the lack of INFORMATION to explain the lack of performance. Particularly when my tax money is involved.

Stake holders in any endeavor need to be updated. We should have information on where sites are planned to be targeted. That actually would help somebody like me who might like to host a charger, but not if they're cutting a deal to have one installed next door.

The lack of charger installations is one issue. The lack of info truly has no logical excuse. The very fact that I'm learning about public install number THREE on this site, and not from Ecotality is disturbing. I know more about Dallas installs from them.

Tony