Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[davidcary]

Count me in an a happy customer! Might just go out and buy a second Leaf.

Amazing to me to see the naysayers. Truly amazing.

Anyone who knows anything about EVs (even people who know very very little) know that the battery is expensive and it degrades. Having a reasonable price to plan for that is what Nissan needed to do. The motor and other parts will always be available at a junk yard when the battery is much more questionable. The fact is the life on the other components is on average so long, that junk yard purchases will be a very good gamble. And in 5 years, when batteries are dying, some cars will get junked if they are in bad shape - lots of cheap motors in the yards.

And then all the forecasts going forward - so many don't even take into account the "lizard" nature of the battery. So in Pheonix, you get your free battery at 3 years and then you have a lizard that lasts 5?. All of a sudden you just went 8 years for a lower TCO than any comparable ICE car. And now for $6k you get another 5 years - sounds pretty good for the worst case scenario weather wise.

In average case, the lizard might last 8-10 years - at $500 a year. I don't know about anyone else but I always thought $1000 a year for battery depreciation or about the gas savings. Anything better is totally gravy.

I've always said for the vast majority of people, lack of TMS is not the issue, it is battery design. And if it is fixed, TMS is only important for QCing frequently or living in Pheonix. If I had a Tesla, the TMS would never have kicked in (above 110), except a few really cold times which didn't mean much anyway.

Bravo Nissan. Off to start selling again....

 

[DaveInAvl]

You may be overestimating the enthusiasm people will have for spending that kind of money on an older car. Not like this is the only thing the car will need as it ages.

I am well aware of that, having kept my bought-new 1984 Civic S for 488,000 miles. Of course it needed major repairs along the way, but I saved a PILE of money on new car payments!

When you get into components like electric motors and electronics, isn't service life measured by the number of hours' use between failures? There are electric motors all over the place in continuous duty which spend much more time near their rated load and power than the one in the LEAF, and if they have acceptable service life then wouldn't the LEAF motor do a lot better in a less-demanding situation? Electronics can be engineered to last a long time, which translates to a lot of miles in a vehicular application.

The "disposable car" grousing seemed along the lines of, "When the battery wears out the car becomes useless." Now that that's out of the way, we'll have a chance to see what the longer-term cost of ownership is. Mechanical stuff like CV joints, wheel bearings and so on aren't made out of unobtanium - they're probably standard parts used in other Nissan models as well.

 

[JPWhite]

we'll have a chance to see what the longer-term cost of ownership is.

Not only that we can now calculate a pretty good estimate at time of purchase or at major decision points along the way.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Reception seems mostly positive. Removing a needless unknown is always good policy. Too bad it took so long to craft it. Not even finished yet: "finance terms by the end of the year" it says in the OP. Why six more months? Nuts. "Payments in the $100 RANGE" it says, so what? $110, $120? Maybe a lease option is better after all.

Interesting that at ~$6k, some think an extra 20 miles isn't that important, and will wait until the pack is more degraded. What are the odds that a 36 or 48kWh pack would ever fit into an '11 or '12?

If the value of the pack being replaced is only $1k, does that mean your buying 4 or 5 new bars for $6k?

$5499 is only MSRP. What will it be on sale for? Can you haggle? Throw in the adapter kit for free? Free install? How low will it go?

If someone finances, and stops payment for whatever reason, would the finance company repo the pack?

Glad they finally announced something. Not providing the option was hurting them.

 

[Publius]

This announcement satisfies my long-term concerns. The unknown battery replacement cost is one of the reasons that I leased my car. I would feel confident to purchase a LEAF now (maybe my LEAF at the end of the lease).

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The complexity of the financing is problematic particularly as people finance cars longer. Nissan is hawking a six year loan, you'd assume they would be a lender that would approve the second lein being added but who knows. Do all states allow second leins to be recorded?

Guy comes in with a four year old LEAF still owing 12k on it. Lets say the car is in below average condition. Now he wants to tack on another 7k in indebtedness. Is there $19k of security in a four year old LEAF with a new battery? If the new models have more range or other significant improvements?

 

[johnrhansen]

Given that there is little mechanical wear and tear, even buying a used leaf now makes sense, since unlike with ICE cars, a used leaf with a new battery should almost drive like a new one.

There are still a few more EV-specific parts that are very expensive to replace and have unknown life. On the 2011-2012:

Motor: $5400
Inverter: $3900
Charger: $1700
DC/DC: $870

Of course, I would be going to the junk yard before I paid MSRP.

all of those items are covered with the 5 year power train warranty right? The way I figure, I will wring sufficient use out of my car after 6 years, so if something like that fails in the 6th year, I'll lose a little, but if it doesnt and the car lasts 10, I'll gain a lot. I would never invest that kind of money in a 5 year old car like a leaf whose technology is rapidly changing. I'll just sell the hulk, take my lumps, and buy a new one. It's nice to drive away a new car now and then. My crystal ball says that's not going to happen. I think my leaf is a very well made car that will last many years without a lot of hassle.

 

[kolmstead]

BBrockman said: "Changes in battery chemistry, however, have been made in an effort to make the battery more durable in extremely hot climates."

Hmm... no data there. Should I spend $5500 for Nissan's "effort" to make the battery more durable? How much more durable is it?

Then there's the cost. I'll need a new battery this fall in order to drive my 2011 Leaf to work. As previously noted, the replacement will cost me $6500 to $7K in California with labor and sales tax. The car has just under 30K miles on it. My best estimate of its resale value is around $10K. So to continue using my car, I'll need to spend an additional $6500 on a car worth $10K.

And then there's the B0133 debacle. Since the black mark follows the VIN, my car probably won't have a battery capacity warranty, even if I buy a new battery.

I appreciate Nissan's setting a (very good) price on the replacement battery, but without knowing how long it will last, I can't justify buying one. Having gotten burned once by believing Nissan's story about hot climate battery life, I'm not dropping $6500 more until I see some real capacity loss data on the "lizard" battery. And even then it won't make financial sense in my case.

-Karl

 

[braineo]

love the active Leaf community. the 'repo' issue in the pack, brings up the question if you finance the new battery pack and stop payments, will Nissan send you back wirelessly the lost bars to make you pay if you want the full battery back? is this the way to upgrade the 2G carwings?

 

[adric22]

For those lucky enough to fall just inside the warranty period, they get a new pack, free of charge. For those un-lucky enough to fall just outside the warranty period, they end up paying ~$6,000.

It seems that there should be some sort of compensation for those who make it to the end of the capacity warranty without losing 4 bars, but losing 2-3. After all, we were originally led to believe by Nissan that we would maintain ~80% capacity after 5 years and ~70% capacity after 8 years. At the very least, as an owner who has lost appx 20% capacity after 3 years, I am quite a ways ahead of the capacity loss I expected despite taking measures to maximize battery life (like 80% charging, minimal QC use, etc).

But isn't that how warranty works on just about everything from cars to computers? So if two guys have a Nissan Altima and the transmission fails for one guy a month before the warranty is over, but fails for the next guy a month after the warranty expires, the same situation occurs. The only real difference I can see is that things like transmissions usually work up until the point they break, where as the battery sort of dies a slow death. If you drive the Altima long enough, it is guaranteed the transmission will break at some point. The only thing is you won't see it coming until it happens.

 

[JonathanT]

I'm with the happy majority and view this announcement as good news, both because of the price and the transparency.

I'm a low mileage driver (5K per year) in a fairly Leaf-friendly climate, but the passage of time is the major determinant of degradation. I've always bought cars new and kept them at least 10 years. Now that I can buy a new battery at some point for a reasonable price when and if range declines to the point that it becomes a nuisance, while the rest of the car should be in good shape, I have nothing to worry about. However, I'll continue to charge to 100% only when I have to, and to keep the car as cool as I can. No point buying a new battery before you have to.

 

[Valdemar]

While I'm generally happy with the announcement I do think that to make things square early adopters should have gotten a special discounted 1-time replacement pricing on the pack as the battery didn't perform as promised by Nissan by a large margin for the majority of the people.

 

[edatoakrun]

Well, I'm not as surprised as many seem to be about this announcement.

Making an announcement of price/availability of replacement battery packs was, IMO, quite literally the least Nissan could do to fulfill it's legal obligation to LEAF purchasers.

And by waiting so long to make the announcement, Nissan showed little regard for those who were susceptible to battery replacement cost anxiety.

BBrockman

...Battery replacements are now available for purchase at your certified Nissan LEAF dealers in the United States. The suggested retail price of the Nissan LEAF battery pack is $5,499. This price includes and requires a return of your original battery pack (valued at $1,000) to the dealer in exchange for the new battery...

As to the low price, remember Nissan wants to keep the replacement business for itself, so it could not afford to price the replacement pack so high as to present competitors with a too-juicy-price-target to undercut.

This is not the final word on battery replacement costs for LEAFs, just the first...

 

[MikeinDenver]

This should make it even more obvious to NEVER buy a Leaf but only lease, return, lease again if you want. Just replacing the battery on your 3-5 year old Leaf at $6,000 is equal to $166/mo over 36 months.

A 3-5 year old LEAF battery should be covered by the 5 Year/60K warranty. If you get warranty service in 3-5 years, you will have a battery that won't reach EOL again until the 6th to 10th year of ownership. So your example is a little extreme, but let's look at me:

In my case, the warranty will do nothing for me. The battery aging model predicts I have about 7 years. That means over the course of 14 years of ownership, I'm looking at $35/mo.

Lets base this on an S here in Michigan.

$21,480 after tax credit
Split into 168 months, that's $127.86 per month.
Add $35/mo for 168 months worth of battery.
$162.85/mo

vs

$229/mo with zero down leases.

Now even if you assume $6000 worth of other things break in those 14 years (now up to $197.85/mo) you're still below the cost of a perpetual lease by sticking with the LEAF for the long term.

I should probably note that a $229/mo zero down lease is below MSRP, while the long term ownership in this example is MSRP. Also, after 14 years, the LEAF will have some residual value, even if it's only worth scrap. At the end of the lease, you owe Nissan a disposition fee. Finally, the leases are qualifying for 4 or 5 $7500 tax credits in the form of lease cash- the single purchase over 14 years only qualifies once. When the tax credit is gone, this will only favor the numbers of the owned LEAF over the leased LEAF.

It's difficult to economically justify a perpetual lease.

Of course there are other things to factor in if you are really serious about considering it. Registration costs can be a HUGE factor if you are continually leasing. Every 2-3 years writing a large check to the DMV because it is a new vehicle. Also insurance costs will decrease as it gets older.

The battery is a little more than I would like to pay, but one would think that in 4-5 years either the available kWh would increase or the costs would decrease. They are saying it costs $5,500 now but effectively most people are still under the 5 year 60k warranty. So you wouldn't really be looking at a replacement out of pocket for a good number of years. The high mileagers and the whole opt out thing being the exceptions.

 

[fotajoye]

Hi all:

I’m happy to be back to provide a long-awaited update on the Nissan LEAF battery replacement plan..

Please give us additional info on the battery. What is the "new" chemistry? Is it LiFePO4 or did you stay with Mn? How much does the pack weight? What is the configuration, is it still 2P,2S; 65 Amp modules x 48 or did you shift to 96 singe cells? What does the 2011 kit contain; perhaps a different high voltage cable and plug along with brackets? What's the energy density of the new cells?....etc.

If these questions are too technical for this thread, please refer me to the correct thread.

In general, I'll glad to see this Nissan announcement as it now gives buyers necessary information for planning their Leaf purchases and ongoing battery maintenance. Additionally, I suggest because the information on batteries is so important to Leaf and other EV sales that future changes to pricing, improvements and battery policy from Nissan be announced timely and that battery policy be given the highest of priorities within Nissan management. I think I can safely say as an owner, the delays dealing with the Leaf battery problems of the current generation cars has been intolerable.

 

[BlueSky]

To celebrate this great news I will use an emoticon for the first time:

 

[JimSouCal]

battery replacement cost anxiety.

For a LEAF owner, AKA "BRCA" syndrome. Fortunately for me, I never worried about such a thing. On the other hand "RA" was sometimes a factor...

All said, traction battery exchange price seems reasonable--mine will age out rather than mileage out--but likely, range wise, I will be fine with a degraded pack. Especially if my friends end up with 240V plugs...

 

[RegGuheert]

To celebrate this great news I will use an emoticon for the first time:

That, and the forum, too, for the first time! Welcome!

 

[TimLee]

Why hasn't the news been posted on http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/us-united-states-nissan-models-leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; yet :?: :?: :?:

 

[DaveEV]

Then there's the cost. I'll need a new battery this fall in order to drive my 2011 Leaf to work. As previously noted, the replacement will cost me $6500 to $7K in California with labor and sales tax. The car has just under 30K miles on it. My best estimate of its resale value is around $10K. So to continue using my car, I'll need to spend an additional $6500 on a car worth $10K.

How close are you to losing 4 bars? For cases like these where the car's range is no longer sufficient and they don't qualify for warranty battery replacement, having a price to replace the battery and a battery capacity warranty that doesn't yet trigger, really leaves you in the cold.

For those lucky enough to fall just inside the warranty period, they get a new pack, free of charge. For those un-lucky enough to fall just outside the warranty period, they end up paying ~$6,000.

But isn't that how warranty works on just about everything from cars to computers?

Typically, except...

The only real difference I can see is that things like transmissions usually work up until the point they break, where as the battery sort of dies a slow death.

Exactly. And people whose battery degrades much more rapidly than expected, but not fast enough to qualify for warranty replacement, suffer from loss of utility during the warranty period with no recourse or compensation. Just look at kolmstead's situation - he's lost enough capacity that making his commute this winter will be impossible. But he hasn't lost enough to qualify for warranty replacement.

So what are his options?

1. Buy a replacement battery for $6000.
2. Sell the car, perhaps trading for a new LEAF (min cost $10k+).
3. Wait for lease terms in ~6 months (could be too late for him).
4. Park the car for the winter and hope there is enough range in the summer for his commute and that he loses the 4th bar before 5 years is up.

I do see a lease as a possible option for these customers, but what Valdemar suggests below might be a more palatable:

While I'm generally happy with the announcement I do think that to make things square early adopters should have gotten a special discounted 1-time replacement pricing on the pack as the battery didn't perform as promised by Nissan by a large margin for the majority of the people.