Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[nerys]

Ahhh ok. Having a prominant kwh reading makes more sense since this is the unit the car itself uses for your efficiency so is desireable for predicting effective range.

 

[Cor]

This is a very interesting experiment as we may get an idea of how long the delay is after the Ahr drops below a certain threshold until bars disappear.

I have not recently checked with my neighbors, but several months after the installation of the new battery in their 2011 (to replace a 3-bar loser) they had only regained 1 capacity bar (so indicating 10 iso 12 bars as expected) although the LeafSpy reporting Ah of the pack was getting pretty close to the capacity that I installed the battery with.
The other guy reported 2 weeks and 600 miles after I installed the brand new 2016 (24kWh) battery in his 2011 Leaf
that he had seen the Ah climb from 45 to 58 (updating about twice a day) and he should soon end up close to the 66 Ah that the pack has.
He had not gained a capacity bar yet.
So far the updates - I have the impression that there is a severe Hysteresis on the capacity indication as well as a very long time averaging.
This is also shown from my own 2011 that had the 2015 pack that I installed in my neighbor's car and instead I installed a cold-weather pack that still had 53 Ah which slowly degraded to just under 50 Ah in the past 5 months. Only last month did I lose the first bar....

BTW, I am about to buy another low-miles 2015 battery and am looking for a Leaf to install it into.
I actually have a local Leaf owner who has a 2011 with 3 bars lost, but he wants to sell his car (cheap) instead of upgrade,
so if anyone is interested in a 2011 with a 2015 battery (approx 10k miles) then send me a message!
Total cost (with new battery installed) is $8k

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This is a very interesting experiment as we may get an idea of how long the delay is after the Ahr drops below a certain threshold until bars disappear.

I have not recently checked with my neighbors, but several months after the installation of the new battery in their 2011 (to replace a 3-bar loser) they had only regained 1 capacity bar (so indicating 10 iso 12 bars as expected) although the LeafSpy reporting Ah of the pack was getting pretty close to the capacity that I installed the battery with.
The other guy reported 2 weeks and 600 miles after I installed the brand new 2016 (24kWh) battery in his 2011 Leaf
that he had seen the Ah climb from 45 to 58 (updating about twice a day) and he should soon end up close to the 66 Ah that the pack has.
He had not gained a capacity bar yet.
So far the updates - I have the impression that there is a severe Hysteresis on the capacity indication as well as a very long time averaging.
This is also shown from my own 2011 that had the 2015 pack that I installed in my neighbor's car and instead I installed a cold-weather pack that still had 53 Ah which slowly degraded to just under 50 Ah in the past 5 months. Only last month did I lose the first bar....

BTW, I am about to buy another low-miles 2015 battery and am looking for a Leaf to install it into.
I actually have a local Leaf owner who has a 2011 with 3 bars lost, but he wants to sell his car (cheap) instead of upgrade,
so if anyone is interested in a 2011 with a 2015 battery (approx 10k miles) then send me a message!
Total cost (with new battery installed) is $8k

so this verifies that LEAF Spy will report the true capacity of the pack well before the Nissan instrumentation will? this is strange...

 

[JPWhite]

This is a very interesting experiment as we may get an idea of how long the delay is after the Ahr drops below a certain threshold until bars disappear.

I have not recently checked with my neighbors, but several months after the installation of the new battery in their 2011 (to replace a 3-bar loser) they had only regained 1 capacity bar (so indicating 10 iso 12 bars as expected) although the LeafSpy reporting Ah of the pack was getting pretty close to the capacity that I installed the battery with.
The other guy reported 2 weeks and 600 miles after I installed the brand new 2016 (24kWh) battery in his 2011 Leaf
that he had seen the Ah climb from 45 to 58 (updating about twice a day) and he should soon end up close to the 66 Ah that the pack has.
He had not gained a capacity bar yet.
So far the updates - I have the impression that there is a severe Hysteresis on the capacity indication as well as a very long time averaging.
This is also shown from my own 2011 that had the 2015 pack that I installed in my neighbor's car and instead I installed a cold-weather pack that still had 53 Ah which slowly degraded to just under 50 Ah in the past 5 months. Only last month did I lose the first bar....

BTW, I am about to buy another low-miles 2015 battery and am looking for a Leaf to install it into.
I actually have a local Leaf owner who has a 2011 with 3 bars lost, but he wants to sell his car (cheap) instead of upgrade,
so if anyone is interested in a 2011 with a 2015 battery (approx 10k miles) then send me a message!
Total cost (with new battery installed) is $8k

so this verifies that LEAF Spy will report the true capacity of the pack well before the Nissan instrumentation will? this is strange...

SOmething doesn't quite add up here.

Just got back from the dealer today, new battery fitted. LeafSpy and the Nissan instrumentation seem to be in agreement. An 80% charge shows exactly 80% in LEAFspy. I have all 12 capacity bars. I suppose if the battery is replaced by a shade tree mechanic the capacity gauge and registers in the LEAF may not be reset. A dealer replacement should register as a new battery on both LEASSpy and the Nissan instrumentation.

Pictures of my instrumentation before and after battery swap is at https://jpwhitenissanleaf.com/2016/12/03/new-battery-at-99000-miles/

 

[Stoaty]

Just got back from the dealer today, new battery fitted. LeafSpy and the Nissan instrumentation seem to be in agreement. An 80% charge shows exactly 80% in LEAFspy. I have all 12 capacity bars.

What was the total price for battery, adapter and labor?

 

[Cor]

Just got back from the dealer today, new battery fitted. LeafSpy and the Nissan instrumentation seem to be in agreement. An 80% charge shows exactly 80% in LEAFspy. I have all 12 capacity bars. I suppose if the battery is replaced by a shade tree mechanic the capacity gauge and registers in the LEAF may not be reset. A dealer replacement should register as a new battery on both LEASSpy and the Nissan instrumentation.

Wow, you had a 5-bar loser!
Indeed, when a shade tree mechanic like myself replaces the battery (actually: the battery modules) then the BMS needs to re-learn the new acquired capacity since I don't have the Nissan tools to reset the BMS.
The state of charge is accurate at all times since it is not averaged but only looks at the cell voltages.
The estimated range and even the capacity indication are wonky after swapping modules.
It is required though to keep the same BMS with the car due to the car requiring the correct ID from the BMS
(again - programmed with Nissan tools) so a shade tree mechanic has no other options, but can still give a Leaf a new life
just like you just now did to yours.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

 

[Cor]

Pictures of my instrumentation before and after battery swap is at https://jpwhitenissanleaf.com/2016/12/03/new-battery-at-99000-miles/

I see on your website the 4-day time that the dealer needed for the battery swap. The things that you mention are the same things that the dealer runs into when doing a warranty battery swap:
- all 2013+ battery shells are the same and indeed slightly different than 2011/2012, so any battery swap on a 2011/2012 Leaf runs into the same challenge and the dealer must order the correct version for every battery swap, whether warranty or customer ordered.
- The 2013+ battery has a different "control" connector (more pin positions, even though the same pins are the only populated ones) but for a swap into a 2011/2012 the dealer can order the 2013+ battery with the old style connector so no new cables are needed, the only reason that the dealer tells you that new cables are needed is either because they ordered the wrong battery, or they broke a connector because they were careless or because they are full of it...
- So-called adapter brackets are simply the two metal brackets that hold the back side of the battery shell to the car chassis.
The bottom of the battery box is already supported by 3 beams that bolt into the frame rails with 6 sturdy bolts, plus 2 more bolts in the front of the battery but apparently the battery must stay in place in even the worst of accidents, so directly above the rear axle are two bolt holes in the chassis that support two brackets for the back of the battery box. For reasons unknown to me, Nissan decided to change the single large bolt hole in the back of the battery box into two slightly smaller holes, so a slightly different bracket and 4 new bolts are needed, though a shade tree mechanic can easily adapt the original bracket to the new holes in the box and only buy 4 new Metric bolts.
The belly pan plastic covers are indeed different, due to the slightly different shape between the 2011/2012 and 2013+ battery shell.
I still have a set of covers sitting in my yard, together with a 2015 battery shell, because I opted to use the old 2011 shell on my first Leaf when I swapped new modules into it and simply forego the covers, since the bottom of the battery was pretty flat anyway - I am not sure as to why those covers are needed.
And for every battery swap, customer order as well as warranty, must those covers be ordered separately - I even asked if I could keep my old covers when I came with my second Leaf for warranty replacement and the dealer was very explicit that with the return of the warranty battery, they also must turn in the old covers and they must order the new covers for every swap, together with the brackets.
Apparently not every dealer is careful with installation of the brackets as I have already seen a car that had only one bracket installed of the two after the battery swap...
My battery warranty swap on a 2011 also took the dealer 3 days, even though they had everything already sitting there for 3 weeks as I could not bring the car in and had made an appointment for 3 weeks out after the replacement battery was delivered, which took almost 6 weeks after the warranty was granted. I estimate that the battery swap will take the dealer approx 1.5 hours, though I have seen work orders where they messed up and had to repair the thread where they destroyed it with the air pressure impact wrench hammering a bolt crooked into the hole.
I was not impressed with the dealer, even though they knew what they were doing, they thought nothing of it to all walk out from behind the desk after I had just walked in for my appointment and politely waited till they were ready for me and without a word they all disappeared and left me standing there for over 10 minutes. Before that my experience was that I could not get anyone to pick up a phone in the service dept and they also refused to ever call me back.
But that is not a new experience for me and that is also one of the reasons that all my 20-ish car purchases never involved a dealer, I always buy (and sell) private party. One of my first experiences with dealers was that they told me that brake rotors needed to be replaced which I refused and 3 years later they were still within spec...
I did also get a voucher for a loaner (rental) vehicle, only the on-site Hertz was overwhelmed (6 people in queue and a single guy sweating behind his desk without any car inventory, so he had to frantically call to have more cars delivered - it took 1.5 hours of waiting to get the loaner. Groan. I considered walking out to the nearest off-site Hertz but that would have taken just as long.
The dealer also gives wrong info, they told me that they charged my car but apparently all they did was plug it in for a minute to see that it started charging and then moved my car out of the way. So, it was only half charged. Good that I know how to drive efficiently. A few days later I discovered a scratch on the rear bumper as if they had parked my car too close to the license plate of another car and caused a nick in the plastic bumper, but since it was a few days later I could no longer complain...

 

[JPWhite]

Wow, you had a 5-bar loser!
Cor.

Yes the battery was dying pretty rapidly. LEAFSpyPro was showing 36.9065 Ah the day before I took it to the dealer. I could only get 150 Gids on a full charge. A 5 bar loser is pretty much worthless thanks to there being virtually no regen available; you get the double impact of reduced range and reduced efficiency.

 

[JPWhite]

The belly pan plastic covers are indeed different, due to the slightly different shape between the 2011/2012 and 2013+ battery shell.

Thanks for the confirmation. The original estimate I got from the dealer didn't list those belly pans, they went into a lot of detail on other items that were required. What this tells me is they have never done a battery swap on a 2011/12 before and missed a full inventory of parts they needed. I am probably one of the first in Tennessee to need a new battery by wearing it out. My dealer is in a small city, the main dealers in Nashville have more experience I'm sure. I saw a LEAF with its battery removed on one trip to my dealer, it wasn't a 2011/12 (no side repeater indicators) and was in for a warranty replacement, they told me it had only 3 remaining capacity bars.

SInce I was running around in a recent model Altima with just 7,500 miles on it on the dealers dime the delay didn't concern me too much.

There is a LEAF driver here in Nashville who told me his warranty replacement took 2 months when the battery failed. He drives an i3 now. He didn't like his loner, it was a junker.

As for your other comments about dealers. Yes I agree, dealers are dealers. They lie to you. If you are willing to accept that it isn't quite as distressing when they do it. Hopefully Elon Musk will create an environment where lying is no longer a tenable business model.

 

[fotajoye]

I find it interesting that Nissan changed the battery so much between the 2011/12 and 2013/14 MYs; I understand BMW designed their battery pack form factor to provide for upgrades and to a standard that will fit their entire model line. From my experience, the life of the Leaf chassis and driveline appears to be quite long, more so than their ICVs. It's a shame they didn't plan for ongoing battery upgrades. Your only move in a 2011 is to replace the battery with the same low range battery.

 

[nerys]

This is one of thr reasons i will likely never biy a new leaf. The new high cap battery will physically fit in my 2012 but they refuse to do it.

I could probably gett 500,000 miles or more on this chassis but the battery wont make it past 100k if i am lucky at 52,000 miles now and range is already down 21% from new.

If a company can't be bothered to do the small amount of work to allow a range upgrade with the new physically compatible otherwise battery. Then they don't need my money either

Which is a pity because it is truly a damned well made car.

 

[cwerdna]

This is one of thr reasons i will likely never biy a new leaf. The new high cap battery will physically fit in my 2012 but they refuse to do it.
...
If a company can't be bothered to do the small amount of work to allow a range upgrade with the new physically compatible otherwise battery. Then they don't need my money either

How do you know it's a "small amount of work"? We've already been down this path before, with you involved in the threads. See these
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=440923#p440923
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19890&p=440932&hilit=homologation#p440932
and replies around them.

For the record, I would also love that they provide an upgrade path. This has been expressed to Nissan corporate numerous times, including to a Nissan rep from Nissan NA HQ who flew to a Leaf owner's appreciation dinner that I was present at a few months ago.

 

[nerys]

Yes we have talked and my ooints were ignored.

The only relevant connection is physical and bms.

Bms is built into the battery so its not relevant and physically it will fit in the space (same casing)

So the only thing that might not work right and it would probably work good enough is the readouts on the dash being inaccurate.

And i do not care about that.

So yes. Relatively speaking its simple.

And no that other thread does absolutely nothing of the sort that you state here.

No one addresses anything at all except to complain about my usage of units and some giberish about crash testing (same physical casing no crash test change needsd) and aomething about quick charge (which i dont have and dont care about)

They just dont want to do it.

 

[cwerdna]

Yes we have talked and my ooints were ignored.

The only relevant connection is physical and bms.

Bms is built into the battery so its not relevant and physically it will fit in the space (same casing)

So the only thing that might not work right and it would probably work good enough is the readouts on the dash being inaccurate.

And i do not care about that.

So yes. Relatively speaking its simple.

No, they weren't ignored. You've chosen to ignore the other possibilities, namely what might be involved with homologation.

As Adam Savage of Mythbusters would say "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

I recognize that Nissan is in the business of selling cars and would probably rather sell/lease you a new one, but if it were as "simple" as you claim, then they'd have already provided it or announced plans to do so.

 

[JPWhite]

I recognize that Nissan is in the business of selling cars and would probably rather sell/lease you a new one, but if it were as "simple" as you claim, then they'd have already provided it or announced plans to do so.

For Nissan to make new batteries available on the existing platform may indeed be a task larger than they can realistically achieve. However we have to recognize that any difficulty they face in providing upgrades is because they designed and built an inflexible hardware and software platform. Tesla designed multiple pack sizes into their design before the first car was sold. So for Tesla it's routine, for Nissan it's tough.

I don't let Nissan off the hook that easy, it's their design, no one forced them to build it that way.

Nissan are now paying for two blunders they made.

1. Inflexible EV platform.
2. Poor battery durability.

I remember the words of the president of a startup I joined years ago. "If we fail, it will be because of our own doing". Nissan have fallen on their own EV sword.

They have enough cash from their ICE business to recover, but it will take a large effort and considerable time.

 

[Cor]

Your only move in a 2011 is to replace the battery with the same low range battery.

Actually I think that a 2011 can (in theory) accept the 30 kWh battery as the 2016 Leaf can be had with either 24 or 30 kWh and the
mounting is not different from the 2011.
I have never tried though, to put the 30 kWh into a 2011, should be fun!
But that still does not give you Bolt / Model 3 type 200+ mile range...

 

[nerys]

But it would give me personally a 50% range increase which would be simply staggering in the positive effect it would have for me. I can easily justify $6k or so for that. Even with my slow 3.3 charger. That would be enough range and life to get me to a 2 year old used model 3 which i should be able to afford. The bolt is not really an option. I really think i would rather die than give gm a penny.

I could even justify taking the hit and buying a used 2013 for $8k to drop that battery into it. To get the 6.6 obc and dcqc.

People who speak of this homoglob crap forget that for all intents and purposes a 2012 leaf is identical crash test wise as far as i know to a 2016 because they are literally the same car. Can anyone confirm or dispute this? Is it not the exact same chassis? Same body? Same interior? With only the gadgets and colors being different?

So the only homoglob crap really is software not nths stuff.

 

[JPWhite]

People who speak of this homoglob crap forget that for all intents and purposes a 2012 leaf is identical crash test wise as far as i know to a 2016 because they are literally the same car. Can anyone confirm or dispute this? Is it not the exact same chassis? Same body? Same interior? With only the gadgets and colors being different?

The 2011/12 LEAF's had quite a bit of aluminum body paneling. Hood, wings, doors. With the 2013 MY onwards Nissan switched to steel panels to save cost. I doubt it makes much difference safety wise.

 

[cwerdna]

And no that other thread does absolutely nothing of the sort that you state here.

No one addresses anything at all except to complain about my usage of units and some giberish about crash testing (same physical casing no crash test change needsd) and aomething about quick charge (which i dont have and dont care about)

The other thread DOES address it. You've just again chosen to ignore it.

As for crash testing, besides the internals of the pack being different, the 30 kWh pack weighs more. Also see below.

Again, you're subscribing to Adam Savage's statement "I reject your reality and substitute my own." Just because you don't "think" homologation is required doesn't mean it isn't.

People who speak of this homoglob crap forget that for all intents and purposes a 2012 leaf is identical crash test wise as far as i know to a 2016 because they are literally the same car. Can anyone confirm or dispute this? Is it not the exact same chassis? Same body? Same interior? With only the gadgets and colors being different?

So the only homoglob crap really is software not nths stuff.

Re: the bolded part, they are NOT! Maybe that's what you fail to understand.

First off, the NHTSA crash test results at https://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle-Shoppers/5%E2%80%93Star-Safety-Ratings/2011%E2%80%93Newer-Vehicles/Search%E2%80%93Results?searchtype=model&make=NISSAN&model=LEAF&year= ARE different from 2013+ Leafs vs. 2011 and 2012.

See http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/. At minimum, the OBC got moved from the back (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=69224) to under the hood, as part of the PDM stack: http://articles.sae.org/11993/. Look under the hood of a '13+ and you'll see it looks VERY different than an '11 or '12 (some pics at http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/) Also see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=300508#p300508 as there are no aluminum panels on a '13+

Besides the SAE page I mentioned, http://saegtl.org/ev/data/uploads/ev-content/gtlev_tp_2014-01-1879.pdf has more details on the powetrain changes.

The 30 kWh battery pack is also heavier. If mounted in an older car, the GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) would probably be the same but the max cargo + passenger capacity would be reduced by the extra weight of the battery. There have been recalls for incorrect labeling (Google for gvwr sticker recall pounds or gvwr label recall). Examples of reduced max carrying weight sticker applied to a Prius: https://priuschat.com/threads/reduced-load-carrying-capacity-sticker.84309/.

Have you looked at the PDFs EPA testing at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2433? Those would need to be rerun (for legal reasons) if Nissan were to advertise a new EPA range rating.

We also don't know what body, suspension or other changes were made to 30 kWh Leafs to accommodate the heavier pack, if anything. But, it is clear there were MANY changes made starting w/model year 2013.

A definition I found for Homologation is

Homologation (from the verb homologate, meaning "to approve or confirm officially") is the process of certifying or approving a product to indicate that it meets regulatory standards and specifications, such as safety and technical requirements

Clearly, an '11 or '12 Leaf fitted w/a 30 kWh pack would not meet many specifications for which it was originally certified.

 

[JPWhite]

Your only move in a 2011 is to replace the battery with the same low range battery.

Actually I think that a 2011 can (in theory) accept the 30 kWh battery as the 2016 Leaf can be had with either 24 or 30 kWh and the
mounting is not different from the 2011.
I have never tried though, to put the 30 kWh into a 2011, should be fun!
But that still does not give you Bolt / Model 3 type 200+ mile range...

There's a dude in Norway who buys used LEAF's from my local dealer. He does some repairs to the units he imports from the US himself. Last I heard he was unsuccessful making the 30kWH battery work in older LEAF's. Nissan claim it's not feasible. If you can find a way you'll be able to make some bank upgrading older LEAF's