Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[evnow]

I hesitate to ask people who start talking about ROI if they would feed their children cheaper food over natural healthier options because it would "save them money" but that gets a bit too personal, but that does not stop me from thinking it!

It is an important question that we should ask people who come to wholefoods driving huge SUVs.

But the answer is simple - food directly affects only the person consuming whereas emissions affect everyone. The tragedy of commons.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I hesitate to ask people who start talking about ROI if they would feed their children cheaper food over natural healthier options because it would "save them money" but that gets a bit too personal, but that does not stop me from thinking it!

It is an important question that we should ask people who come to wholefoods driving huge SUVs.

But the answer is simple - food directly affects only the person consuming whereas emissions affect everyone. The tragedy of commons.

yes that and the still growing fast food industry but I have to say I have only a very small spot on the ground to stand on.

3 days ago, I was on the trail doing my half walk, half jog thing and struck up a conversation with someone who admitted they had just taken up the exercising thing and did so because of age and asked if that was the reason I was doing it. I replied "Nope, I exercise so I can continue to eat fast food and not get fat!"

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Interesting conversation evnow, Dave and thankyouob, although perhaps it should be continued on another thread. As motivation for same let me offer a little story, eating lunch with some guys, one of the guys puts all his trash in the trash can including an aluminum can, even though there was a recycle can next to the trash. Trying not to be too uncool about it, I asked him why would anyone put aluminum in a landfill. He response was "because I don't care".

So after three years of making high lease payments on a suboptimal personal finance decision to drive an ev in a sea of status quo internal combustion I somehow want to think that effort wasn't in vain. Realizing that what I do is inconsequential to the environment, world peace, greenhouse gases, or any other cause you may hold dear, what matters is what everyone else does. If you need confirmation of that ask KJD how much the air quality in the salt lake valley has improved through his efforts.

I really want evs to succeed for a lot of reasons, and I mean really succeed, to the point where people in salt lake city don't have to stay inside 4 months out of the year, we don't have to worry about the free flow of oil at market prices or any of a number of other things. For that to happen evs need to be compelling, and trading a gasoline bill for a battery bill won't motivate the masses. That isn't Nissan's fault, it is what it is, I was just hoping for more by now.

 

[JPWhite]

That isn't Nissan's fault, it is what it is, I was just hoping for more by now.

Agreed, and we must understand that as early adopter types we assume risks others wouldn't even consider for a New York minute. As such we share the risk with Nissan with for unexpected costs or bumps in the EV road along the way. Unfortunately we hit a bump in the road.

This battery replacement program coupled with the capacity warranty are important because Nissan demonstrate they are willing to share that risk with us, rather than ask us to assume all risks pertaining to the batteries and the utility they provide. They are meeting us half way, which is about what we should expect.

 

[pkulak]

I hesitate to ask people who start talking about ROI if they would feed their children cheaper food over natural healthier options because it would "save them money" but that gets a bit too personal, but that does not stop me from thinking it!

Anyone who changes their lifestyle in any way solely to avoid polluting is not acting rationally. Sadly, most of the cost of driving a car is not born by the driver. Until there's some kind of carbon tax (hint: never) you can't expect people to act against their own interests. Capitalism works, even if the incentives are toward destroying the planet.

I just drove to Seattle and back this weekend in a Honda Civic. It cost me about 40 bucks in gas. God knows how many hundreds (thousands?) of dollars worth of damage I did to 1-5 and the air. And knowing that, I still didn't take the train or buy a Tesla.

 

[tailgate1234]

Some 2011s have been selling for $12k in the used market. A deeply discounted 2011 + new battery may be a huge bargain.

 

[electricfuture]

I look at cost of ownership after installing my PV panels: $19,800 (my Leaf cost after subsidies) + $6000 (battery) + Tires ($1800 3 changes) + $200 (break job) + $200 (shocks) = $28,000 over 9 years. So the cost of ownership is only $3111 per year including fuel cost. Also license fees will reduce every year with the age of the car. Moreover, inflation will have little impact on these costs thanks to PV.

i dont disagree with you that this is a good deal, but if you are going to figure in "free" power (and contrast the cost of gasoline, too), you should prolly add the cost of the PV system to your 28k.

You are right if this was just EV PV on an existing roof. But this is not may case. Got a quote that includes PV on a prefab sun room for $36k. So considering the room addition and household related PV I figure my EV related PV will be around $5000. That would up the EV ownership cost but consider that the PV is for 20 years minimum - not the 9 year period related to the battery change. So I figure another 20-9=11 years of free power eliminates this cost from the equation.

 

[BBrockman]

WOW!! now that is news! So anyone who has paid off their LEAF can schedule a battery replacement today?

Yes. You can do that, and dealers should have the info to make it happen as a cash transaction. We don't expect a lot of immediate business on the program, but with some higher-mileage cars now in market, we do want to offer the option.

Thanks for your loyalty and honest feedback. We appreciate it.

 

[BBrockman]

Mr Brockman, since this thread still seems to have your ear can you help clear up the following:
If one opted out of the class action settlement does that only void their capacity warranty on their current LEAF or is that person not eligible for battery capacity warranties on LEAFs they lease or buy in the future as well? Is there an option to opt back in or am I barred for life?

Sorry. I'm not in the best position to answer that, as it's a legal matter and I'm no lawyer. However, I'll consult with our folks to try to get a clear answer or statement on that topic. It might be best for me to post back in the thread about the topic rather than here.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Interesting conversation evnow, Dave and thankyouob, although perhaps it should be continued on another thread. As motivation for same let me offer a little story, eating lunch with some guys, one of the guys puts all his trash in the trash can including an aluminum can, even though there was a recycle can next to the trash. Trying not to be too uncool about it, I asked him why would anyone put aluminum in a landfill. He response was "because I don't care".

So after three years of making high lease payments on a suboptimal personal finance decision to drive an ev in a sea of status quo internal combustion I somehow want to think that effort wasn't in vain. Realizing that what I do is inconsequential to the environment, world peace, greenhouse gases, or any other cause you may hold dear, what matters is what everyone else does. If you need confirmation of that ask KJD how much the air quality in the salt lake valley has improved through his efforts.

I really want evs to succeed for a lot of reasons, and I mean really succeed, to the point where people in salt lake city don't have to stay inside 4 months out of the year, we don't have to worry about the free flow of oil at market prices or any of a number of other things. For that to happen evs need to be compelling, and trading a gasoline bill for a battery bill won't motivate the masses. That isn't Nissan's fault, it is what it is, I was just hoping for more by now.

great response and remember; even the smallest pebble's ripple reaches the opposite shore. you have swayed others on EVs in a positive way and yes I agree that many things concerning EV are happening too slow or not at all yet but there has been progress and its measurable. until that progress stops, I don't think anyone can make a definitive conclusion as to long term viability.

do we want it to happen faster? well, of course we do. we wanted it all on day one but it was and still is emerging technology. there is a long way to go and lets face it; most of the industry has not even started yet. but we knew we were on the bleeding edge going in. Pioneers did not expect to jump on the first trail headed west did they? so how can we expect something to be there before the need. we are the part that is creating the need and it is being met...slowly, yes but this is just another tick off the list and that "to do" list IS getting smaller.

 

[kmp647]

I would like to see Nissan publicly state on the window sticker that the battery in the 2015 models has "improved chemistry" or whatever the lawyers will allow them to state.

just something so we know for sure the customer is getting this "feature/benefit"

otherwise we have no proof of anything just a statement by a Nissan representative on a " leaf forum"

I have examined 3 2015 Leaf models at a local dealer and the sticker has no mention of the improved battery.

 

[TimLee]

That isn't Nissan's fault, it is what it is, I was just hoping for more by now.

Agreed, and we must understand that as early adopter types we assume risks others wouldn't even consider for a New York minute. As such we share the risk with Nissan with for unexpected costs or bumps in the EV road along the way. Unfortunately we hit a bump in the road.

This battery replacement program coupled with the capacity warranty are important because Nissan demonstrate they are willing to share that risk with us, rather than ask us to assume all risks pertaining to the batteries and the utility they provide. They are meeting us half way, which is about what we should expect.

Well stated JP.
My only difference of opinion would be on whether Nissan has gotten to half way yet.
The battery replacement price has gotten them closer.

Prior to this change in direction on my three years of ownership grading of whether I recommend LEAF I gave a 2 and would I recommend Nissan I gave a 4 due to lack of trustworthiness.
With this markedly improved change in direction I would raise those scores to a 4 and a 6. And as I have said before I love the LEAF more than any vehicle I have ever owned. For the right buyer with the right situation it is a 10.

But to be at a good half way point they need to adjust the capacity warranty in the class action mediation to where there is some remedy for most of the class. 66.25% capacity warranty at five years and nothing for anyone that doesn't fail that soon is not half way when their statements were five years 80% and ten years 70%. Provide a pro-rated warranty that meets everyone half way on those original statements on capacity degradation. And clean up the horrendously bad communication B1033.

Then they will be at half way. And deserve a score for the LEAF of 9 or nearly 10 and a score for Nissan of 10.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Until it becomes clear that the TCO is significantly less than ICE most people will stick with the status quo they are familiar with and enjoy the go-anywhere flexibility of gasoline. People are accustomed to paying $40+ per week for gas and don't pay attention to what that adds up to. Buying a car with a known recurring $6000 repair bill just isn't going to sit well with the masses.

 

[JPWhite]

Until it becomes clear that the TCO is significantly less than ICE most people will stick with the status quo they are familiar with and enjoy the go-anywhere flexibility of gasoline. People are accustomed to paying $40+ per week for gas and don't pay attention to what that adds up to. Buying a car with a known recurring $6000 repair bill just isn't going to sit well with the masses.

The jury is out on the Lizard batteries real world performance.

For sake of argument say it lasts twice as long as the original, so instead of say 60,000 miles in a warm climate, the car will go say 120,000 miles. There are other factors on the degradation of the battery and we'll see what happens. But at over 100,000 miles expected life, I don't see how the purchaser of a new LEAF would give a rats #$% about the cost of a new battery.

 

[myleaf]

Until it becomes clear that the TCO is significantly less than ICE most people will stick with the status quo they are familiar with and enjoy the go-anywhere flexibility of gasoline. People are accustomed to paying $40+ per week for gas and don't pay attention to what that adds up to. Buying a car with a known recurring $6000 repair bill just isn't going to sit well with the masses.

The jury is out on the Lizard batteries real world performance.

For sake of argument say it lasts twice as long as the original, so instead of say 60,000 miles in a warm climate, the car will go say 120,000 miles. There are other factors on the degradation of the battery and we'll see what happens. But at over 100,000 miles expected life, I don't see how the purchaser of a new LEAF would give a rats #$% about the cost of a new battery.

In AZ, my battery lasted 35K miles. If double that it is still only 70K miles.

 

[mwalsh]

Until it becomes clear that the TCO is significantly less than ICE most people will stick with the status quo they are familiar with and enjoy the go-anywhere flexibility of gasoline. People are accustomed to paying $40+ per week for gas and don't pay attention to what that adds up to. Buying a car with a known recurring $6000 repair bill just isn't going to sit well with the masses.

15,000 miles annually in a car that gets 27mpg is $2200 a year for gas alone (assuming gas @ $4 per). To get to ~$1000 a year, assuming the same price for gas, one only needs to be driving 7,000 miles annually. Of course, you could shop for a car with better gas mileage; or change jobs so you drive less; or a miracle could happen and gas could go down to $0.99 a gallon again (unlikely).

The only thing that really needs to change is peoples' mindset.

Oh, and the price for EVs need to equalize with those of ICE vehicles.

 

[redLEAF]

As this points to someone speculating if Tesla will reduce their replacement battery price (earlier quoted as $40K on the LEAF thread) let the outside speculation begin ... of course an apples and oranges comparison as far as range, etc. -- $15,600 is a lot less than $40K


Can Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) do Better than $5,500?

http://www.bibeypost.com/can-tesla-motors-inc-tsla-do-better-than-5500-312/

I myself love the announcement from Nissan, just gives us more options and I think that's what most people truly want --- we bought our 2012 outright; saved tons on gas (expensive here with IL taxes) and the cost of maintenance, etc. has been close to 'nil. Our local dealer even offered a free tire rotation recently just to get us in to check out the new models. I've been eying the new MBZ B-class electric drive but it really needs to 'prove' itself in real life driving and with this new option from Nissan, perhaps we'll simply keep the LEAF longer.

 

[JPWhite]

. Provide a pro-rated warranty that meets everyone half way on those original statements on capacity degradation.

I agree a pro-rated warranty is a fairer approach to premature battery aging. Like any component subject to wear such as Tires or the 12v battery, pro-rated warranty is the established method of compensating for premature wear in automobiles. Now we have a cost for a replacement battery it is possible to construct a sliding scale going from 100% compensation down to zero.

Traction batteries are different in one respect. With tires and 12v batteries even though a pro-rated warranty maybe in effect, owners may just buy a discounted replacement at a auto store/tire store and never claim on the warranty. With a higher unit cost and single source of supply, almost everyone eligible will claim, so the final pro-rated warranty picture may not look as pretty as we'd like.

 

[mwalsh]

I agree a pro-rated warranty is a fairer approach to premature battery aging. Like any component subject to wear such as Tires or the 12v battery, pro-rated warranty is the established method of compensating for premature wear in automobiles. Now we have a cost for a replacement battery it is possible to construct a sliding scale going from 100% compensation down to zero.

Most of those who opted out of the class-action basically had two major beefs - getting stiffed on the pack replacement cost and the format of the battery capacity warranty (in that it seemed engineered to favor the fewest possible replacements under warranty). Well, now Nissan has stepped up to the plate on the first objection, it would be very appropriate to revisit the other. And what you suggest seems an amicable solution to me.

But before anything else...B0133 must either be nullified or explained away (in writing) as a legality that truly won't affect the ~60 people who opted-out, should they need warranty relief either as it stands today or if modified. And, in fact, a new warranty that is definitely NOT litigation related would probably be an ideal way for Nissan to save face.

 

[TomT]

So far, there hasn't been any indication that the S will NEED a replacement battery for quite a long time... That is one big difference in the overall equation...

As this points to someone speculating if Tesla will reduce their replacement battery price (earlier quoted as $40K on the LEAF thread) let the outside speculation begin ... of course an apples and oranges comparison as far as range, etc. -- $15,600 is a lot less than $40K