Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[cwerdna]

Thanks! I wouldn't be surprised if you lose another bar by end of summer...

You should be able to edit it yourself. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a link to help, if you need it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have lost 3 bars with approximately 26k miles.

How can I post my specifics to the wiki "Real World Battery Capacity Loss" page? This is important statistics to be seen.

I sense a lot of frustration there, and it's certainly a feeling many of us had last summer when it appeared that Nissan was quite literally going to go down with the ship yelling "all is normal" and "nothing to see here".

The point man for Nissan, Mark Perry, was right in the heat of battle when... he decided to "retire" as a young guy in his 50's. Anyway, that was the beginning of the end to the "All is normal" campaign. That brings us to today's capacity warranty. I get that you're upset and might feel cheated, and you want to take a bite out of somebody's posterior, but we have made progress in the right direction. No more stonewalling (ok, a lot less) and some basic, rudimentary protection.

You are in far great shape than many in your area, as it appears you're only driving about 1000 miles a month, or about 35 miles per day. So, even with 20-30% range reduction, the car should still get you around. They're likely not going to do much with your lease car when you drop the fourth capacity bar; probably just offer to take the car back on early lease return.

My real beef with the whole thing is selling the car with known deficiencies and not disclosing the effects of heat on the battery in places like Phoenix. They are still doing that, and it will likely require legislation to change that.

 

[dwmccoy]

I am frustrated not only with my Leaf and the misleading information given to hot climate customers, but also what this is doing to the EV perception impacting other manufacturers with TMS deployed.

Actually I drive close to 60 mile per (round-trip) and I am returning home with less than 5 miles on the dashboard. I do not know when the impact of the last bar (#3) will hit my actual mileage, but I am afraid I will no longer be able to use the car for what originally wanted.

Interesting option you brought up regarding the lease and Nissan’s potential response once the car his the 4 bar level.

I agree with your last statement. Nissan’s knowingly brought the Leaf to hot climates with a design error dealing with the heat. They are still selling these in the Arizona/hot climate areas and this will continue to be a major issue.

 

[myleaf]

Did anyone receive a letter yet? I notice some people getting the update installed.

 

[TomT]

They supposedly go out tomorrow... Many of us heard about it from other sources and it has been available in the Nissan system since roughly June 1st.

Did anyone receive a letter yet? I notice some people getting the update installed.

 

[LEAFfan]

Claims of 100 mile range

The LEAF did go 100 miles on a 100% charge on the L4 route so it all depends on how you drive. I could easily get 100 miles on an 80% charge with a few hypermiling techniques. In the city, it isn't really that difficult to do.

The truth is Nissan poorly engineered the Nissan Leaf’s lithium ion battery and failed to incorporate any thermal management system. Additionally, none of these manufacturers are experiencing battery problems. Only Nissan has customers with premature battery failures.

This statement is not true at all. If you had done more research, you would have found the Mitsubishi iMiEV DID have battery pack problems with its TMS. The pack overheated EVEN with a TMS.
So a TMS isn't the holy grail in AZ. It adds cost, complexity (repairs), weight, and it takes your driving capacity away, plus it's as noisy as hell in the garage! If the LEAF had TMS, and you parked outside with our ambient heat, what good do you think it would really do? Sure, it would keep the pack cooler, but rob your capacity to run it while the car is just sitting for hours. And when the capacity lowers to a certain level, the TMS shuts off. The only time it would really help would be while plugged in and like I said, it's really noisy while running. After someone has a TMS BEV (not a Volt maybe a FFEV) here for a year, please talk to them and see how much degradation they have and then compare it to a 2013 LEAF. I believe Nissan has made improvements in the 2013 battery pack, but I will know for sure in about 7 months. I've heard others on here say their '11/'12's temp sensors are staying about 10 degrees above ambient. Mine is staying about 8-10 degrees BELOW ambient so it sounds like an improvement for the 2013. In 2015, Nissan said they will have a pack with a completely different chemistry that will not lose capacity due to high ambient or cold temps. They also said it will have a range of at least 150 miles...maybe 200.
I give Nissan tons of credit for being the first and only serious one to offer a mass produced BEV. Besides Tesla, which isn't a major manufacturer, Nissan is the only serious major manufacturer to make their LEAF available in all 50 states.

 

[Stoaty]

I've heard others on here say their '11/'12's temp sensors are staying about 10 degrees above ambient. Mine is staying about 8-10 degrees BELOW ambient so it sounds like an improvement for the 2013.

I don't think anyone has said that, at least not that I recall. My Leaf will be 10 degrees above the ambient temp in my condo garage after I leave the hot San Fernando Valley (for instance, ambient temp = 85, battery pack temp = 77-80) and go to the garage which is ambient temp = 68 degrees. The 10 degree difference goes down by 6.3 degrees (to only a 3.7 degree temp differential) after about 9-10 hours, and will approach the garage ambient temperature in about 30 hours. If I charge for 2 hours, the battery pack temp increases by about 3.5 degrees. If the temps were staying 10 degrees above ambient for a sustained period of time there would have to be one hell of a lot of insulation for the pack!

 

[dwmccoy]

Claims of 100 mile range

The LEAF did go 100 miles on a 100% charge on the L4 route so it all depends on how you drive. I could easily get 100 miles on an 80% charge with a few hypermiling techniques. In the city, it isn't really that difficult to do.

The truth is Nissan poorly engineered the Nissan Leaf’s lithium ion battery and failed to incorporate any thermal management system. Additionally, none of these manufacturers are experiencing battery problems. Only Nissan has customers with premature battery failures.

This statement is not true at all. If you had done more research, you would have found the Mitsubishi iMiEV DID have battery pack problems with its TMS. The pack overheated EVEN with a TMS.
So a TMS isn't the holy grail in AZ. It adds cost, complexity (repairs), weight, and it takes your driving capacity away, plus it's as noisy as hell in the garage! If the LEAF had TMS, and you parked outside with our ambient heat, what good do you think it would really do? Sure, it would keep the pack cooler, but rob your capacity to run it while the car is just sitting for hours. And when the capacity lowers to a certain level, the TMS shuts off. The only time it would really help would be while plugged in and like I said, it's really noisy while running. After someone has a TMS BEV (not a Volt maybe a FFEV) here for a year, please talk to them and see how much degradation they have and then compare it to a 2013 LEAF. I believe Nissan has made improvements in the 2013 battery pack, but I will know for sure in about 7 months. I've heard others on here say their '11/'12's temp sensors are staying about 10 degrees above ambient. Mine is staying about 8-10 degrees BELOW ambient so it sounds like an improvement for the 2013. In 2015, Nissan said they will have a pack with a completely different chemistry that will not lose capacity due to high ambient or cold temps. They also said it will have a range of at least 150 miles...maybe 200.
I give Nissan tons of credit for being the first and only serious one to offer a mass produced BEV. Besides Tesla, which isn't a major manufacturer, Nissan is the only serious major manufacturer to make their LEAF available in all 50 states.

The Mitsubishi iMiEV is a force air cooled battery pack (according to their web site) and this add validity to the issue of having a liquid cooled battery compartment. The other manufacturers are Ford, GM and Tesla. I give no credit to a company that knowingly mislead customer in 2011/2012 and does not step forward and back their product. This is the honest and fair thing to do, but you do not see this credibility and integrity in business today.

 

[cwerdna]

The truth is Nissan poorly engineered the Nissan Leaf’s lithium ion battery and failed to incorporate any thermal management system. Additionally, none of these manufacturers are experiencing battery problems. Only Nissan has customers with premature battery failures.

This statement is not true at all. If you had done more research, you would have found the Mitsubishi iMiEV DID have battery pack problems with its TMS. The pack overheated EVEN with a TMS...

LEAFfan, are you referring to http://www.hybridcars.com/mitsubishi-recalls-i-miev-and-outlander-plug-in-hybrid-over-battery-fault/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or something else? If it's that, TMS isn't there to prevent overheating due to defective batteries.

 

[dwmccoy]

The truth is Nissan poorly engineered the Nissan Leaf’s lithium ion battery and failed to incorporate any thermal management system. Additionally, none of these manufacturers are experiencing battery problems. Only Nissan has customers with premature battery failures.

This statement is not true at all. If you had done more research, you would have found the Mitsubishi iMiEV DID have battery pack problems with its TMS. The pack overheated EVEN with a TMS...

LEAFfan, are you referring to http://www.hybridcars.com/mitsubishi-recalls-i-miev-and-outlander-plug-in-hybrid-over-battery-fault/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or something else? If it's that, TMS isn't there to prevent overheating due to defective batteries.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Here is the battery specifics direct from the Mitsubishi site http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/imiev/12/specs.do?#battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it clearly identifies the cooling as "Forced Air Ventilation". This similar to the Leaf and clearly does not work for Mitsubishi as well. If you are located in a climate like San Diego where the annual temperature is around 75 degrees, the force air ventilation would work fine. However Nissan has advertised and sold the Leaf, as you stated, in all 50 states which include hot climates and sold to hot climate customers knowing there was a battery design issue with temperature. I read Tesla advised Nissan early on to reconsider their battery cooling design for hot climates, but Nissan did not listen.

Additionally, TMS means "Thermal Management System". Management of the battery compartment temperature in hot or cold climates.

 

[TomT]

I agree completely. I don't know why LF feels the need to try and defend a bad decision on Nissan's part by spreading FUD... Not including TMS was a design defect pure and simple.

Forced air cooling is not what anyone would consider to be a true TMS, by the way...

The Mitsubishi iMiEV is a force air cooled battery pack (according to their web site) and this add validity to the issue of having a liquid cooled battery compartment. The other manufacturers are Ford, GM and Tesla. I give no credit to a company that knowingly mislead customer in 2011/2012 and does not step forward and back their product. This is the honest and fair thing to do, but you do not see this credibility and integrity in business today.

 

[Volusiano]

If the LEAF had TMS, and you parked outside with our ambient heat, what good do you think it would really do? Sure, it would keep the pack cooler, but rob your capacity to run it while the car is just sitting for hours. And when the capacity lowers to a certain level, the TMS shuts off. The only time it would really help would be while plugged in and like I said, it's really noisy while running.

If the LEAF had TMS, it would imply that MUCH better insulation can be wrapped around the battery to prevent the ambient temperature from penetrating into the battery too quickly. But without TMS, thick insulation cannot be added because then the heat inside the battery can't escape. That's the other BIG difference that TMS brings to the table which not enough people recognizes.

The combination of the thick insulation and the still very nice and cool thermal mass of the big battery even when arriving at work (because TMS keeps operating during the drive to work) means that it will be a long time before the ambient temperature will get around to penetrating the battery deep enough to bring its thermal mass up to outside the optimum temperature zone. So the battery with TMS will not really have to face the high internal temperature for very long. Maybe only for a short time in the later afternoon, but before long, the work day already ends and the owner already hops in and takes off, at which time TMS kicks in again during driving to resume the cooling. Then it continues to cool at home as long as it takes during charging to keep the battery happy and free from the heat stress.

TMS running while plugged in at home is not anymore noisy than running a cooling fan if you hang out in the garage. But nobody hangs out inside their garage in the hot Phoenix summer anyway, so the noise is not an issue at all because nobody is ever there inside the garage for long, even if it can be considered loud enough to annoy anyone in the first place.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I agree completely. I don't know why LF feels the need to try and defend a bad decision on Nissan's part by spreading FUD... Not including TMS was a design defect pure and simple.

Forced air cooling is not what anyone would consider to be a true TMS, by the way...

With a dense battery cell, particularly the large format cells, I can't imagine that blowing some cold air on it does much. It's like blowing on a hot rock.

 

[firetrax]

TMS is not really required in temperate places like the UK - so if Nissan do decide to include it in the future, I hope they would offer it as an option.

 

[WetEV]

Add in TMS and I expect Volt batteries will be doing fine well after Leaf batteries are junk.

In Arizona, yes TMS will have a large effect. In Seattle, I doubt it. TMS isn't a gain where it rarely turns on.

 

[scottf200]

If the LEAF had TMS, and you parked outside with our ambient heat, what good do you think it would really do? Sure, it would keep the pack cooler, but rob your capacity to run it while the car is just sitting for hours. And when the capacity lowers to a certain level, the TMS shuts off. The only time it would really help would be while plugged in and like I said, it's really noisy while running.

If the LEAF had TMS, it would imply that MUCH better insulation can be wrapped around the battery to prevent the ambient temperature from penetrating into the battery too quickly. But without TMS, thick insulation cannot be added because then the heat inside the battery can't escape. That's the other BIG difference that TMS brings to the table which not enough people recognizes.

The combination of the thick insulation and the still very nice and cool thermal mass of the big battery even when arriving at work (because TMS keeps operating during the drive to work) means that it will be a long time before the ambient temperature will get around to penetrating the battery deep enough to bring its thermal mass up to outside the optimum temperature zone. So the battery with TMS will not really have to face the high internal temperature for very long. Maybe only for a short time in the later afternoon, but before long, the work day already ends and the owner already hops in and takes off, at which time TMS kicks in again during driving to resume the cooling. Then it continues to cool at home as long as it takes during charging to keep the battery happy and free from the heat stress.

TMS running while plugged in at home is not anymore noisy than running a cooling fan if you hang out in the garage. But nobody hangs out inside their garage in the hot Phoenix summer anyway, so the noise is not an issue at all because nobody is ever there inside the garage for long, even if it can be considered loud enough to annoy anyone in the first place.

Really an excellent point about the insulation that rarely gets acknowledged or appreciated.

One of many graphics from a "home" article: volt-battery-thermal-management-system-in-the-hot-arizona-sun
http://gm-volt.com/2013/05/03/volt-battery-thermal-management-system-in-the-hot-arizona-sun/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What happens if the Volt is parked in the hot sun with ignition (power) off and NOT plugged in? This would be the scenario for many Arizona workers that park their cars in full sun on a black asphalt parking lot all day. How hot will the Volt’s battery get?
In order to determine, Volt was parked for a day in full sun. Results of this test are presented in figure 5. We see that the Volt’s battery is extremely well insulated. With cabin temperatures soaring to 115 F and ambient air temperatures going to 99 F the Volts battery only reached a maximum temperature of 90 F. Roughly equal to the upper limit during active thermal management during charging shown in figure 2 . We also note that there is NO ACTION taken by the TMS in this case.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I don't know why LF feels the need to try and defend a bad decision on Nissan's part by spreading FUD... Not including TMS was a design defect pure and simple...

So, it's ok to fight FUD with FUD?

 

[Smidge204]

A TMS would add several thousand to the cost of the car, additional weight, and loss of range due to that weight and additional power draw. There's always a tradeoff.

Nissan wanted to make the LEAF affordable while maximizing range, so they took the gamble and went with a passive battery cooling scheme. This gamble seems to have paid off more than backfired so far.
=Smidge=

 

[TomT]

Yes; while it has been brought up time and time again, it is interesting that many fail to see one of the advantages of a true TMS in keeping a battery both cool and warm, even when not plugged in or operating for an extended period: extra insulation... It's basic thermodynamics.

The combination of the thick insulation and the still very nice and cool thermal mass of the big battery even when arriving at work (because TMS keeps operating during the drive to work) means that it will be a long time before the ambient temperature will get around to penetrating the battery deep enough to bring its thermal mass up to outside the optimum temperature zone. Really an excellent point about the insulation that rarely gets acknowledged or appreciated.

 

[WetEV]

Yes: while it has been brought up time and time again, it is interesting that so many fail to see one of the advantages of a true TMS in keeping a battery both cool and warm, even when not plugged in or operating for an extended period... It's basic thermodynamics.

Which isn't an advantage in climates where batteries don't get very hot or cold.