Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[TomT]

Quite true. Unless you plan to do many QCs, in which case it is an advantage anywhere, of course... Regardless, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it...

Yes; while it has been brought up time and time again, it is interesting that many fail to see one of the advantages of a true TMS in keeping a battery both cool and warm, even when not plugged in or operating for an extended period: extra insulation... It's basic thermodynamics.

Which isn't an advantage in climates where batteries don't get very hot or cold.

 

[edatoakrun]

="TomT"
Yes: while it has been brought up time and time again, it is interesting that so many fail to see one of the advantages of a true TMS in keeping a battery both cool and warm, even when not plugged in or operating for an extended period...

Since we're so far off topic already, I'll point out your argument can be applied to many other devices for which most find that passive thermal management is sufficient...

...Male infertility accounts for 40% of all infertility, and one team is looking to tackle the issue with a line of intimates. Snowballs are organic cotton underwear designed to maximize fertility by cooling men's nether regions.

Snowballs creator Joshua Shoemake had trouble in the "fertility factory" with his wife. Too many appointments and too much money spent were taking its toll. A friend going through a similar situation was told to put some ice down below, since elevated scrotal temperature can be a major cause of infertility.

After icing for a year, Shoemake's friend became father to a baby girl. Inspired by the idea, the two believed they could find a way to "hack fertility."...

http://mashable.com/2013/03/05/snowballs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quick search found that some seem to see advantages to ATM heating in the same area also, but I found the additional argument for electrifying your shorts I found below, far more compelling...

Through the electric underwear do you? Faced with this problem, the men shook his head will be asked in addition: electric underwear? That can wear underwear live it? The answer is yes. This power not only to wear underwear, but also improve your urinary urgency, nocturnal enuresis, scrotum wet problems. Pee become very comfortable.
First, do not wear any underwear is not power, then do not worry about its security, electric underwear without a second battery unplugged, it releases the high-frequency micro-power. Also with ordinary underwear look very different. To know that it can really put on full power.
Some people are often wet and sticky discomfort below. Put power underwear, following the placement of an exhaust fan like. Fresh and dry immediately. The following dry, warm waist just like to be pushed shares, warm comfortable. Adhere to put some time, there is a change in urination unknowingly.
The original tick drops the old shoes, underwear stained with a drop or two have. Now pull the end of urine to accept this, it is perfect! Particularly frequent in the original urine and urine to wait any longer, meaning one, lying on the toilet and the urine is not much. Biede now come to live urinate, pull up more rushing, Huan real strong.
Is a common sting, white drops of urine, urine can also be the bifurcation power underwear "electric" no more.
Because the effect is good, the feeling of wearing electric underpants was compiled into a text message: underwear for a live, cure prostate. Underwear for a live, pee is very convenient, underwear for a live, Flirt and reproduce.
See here, the prostate is not very good, have difficulty urinating man certainly appeals. Think about, ah, older, prostate problems who can not escape, instead of waiting for serious surgery, might as well put on the electric underwear Yang Yang, seriously cure that. Wear underwear anyway, why not put this power underwear. The fact is that after the advent of electric underpants in Japan has been very hot. Often in short supply....

http://www.dhgate.com/electric-underwear-prostate-specific-care/p-ff808081321fe9000132213ed8394300.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 9549]

It will be interesting to see how BEVs with active TMS handle the summer and how their range is affected. So far there haven't been many (any?) such vehicles. The Volt is an PHEV so you don't care if its range suffers. The Leaf is the only BEV sold in 50 states but it doesn't have TMS.

Will be interesting to hear this summer from folks who get the Spark and are in some hot climate, I guess in CA only since they're not selling it in AZ. Other BEVs are either not out yet or sell in such small quantities to practically be non-existent. Include Spark, 500e, Focus electric, Fit.

For one of those vehicles, does sitting parked on a hot day drain the battery (range) significantly due to the TMS running to keep the battery cool? Does the TMS run at all while its not plugged in and off?

I'm of the opinion that Nissan will likely add TMS next rev but I think the current car is great.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A TMS would add several thousand to the cost of the car, additional weight, and loss of range due to that weight and additional power draw. There's always a tradeoff.

Nissan wanted to make the LEAF affordable while maximizing range, so they took the gamble and went with a passive battery cooling scheme. This gamble seems to have paid off more than backfired so far.
=Smidge=

I doubt it is as heavy or expensive as you claim. Heck, GM did it, and added a gasoline engine in the Volt.

In the Rav4 EV Gen II, they use the exact same AC pump for the battery and the cabin. Sorry, not buying that it's "too heavy or expensive". Yes, it does weight something, and cost something. Even moderate climates with quick charging get hot. I've been at 10 bars (about 130F) after quick charging multiple times on June 19, 2012, while in 65F ambient temps. Imagine trying that in Phoenix in June.

Insulation is dirt cheap and light to put around the battery.

 

[Volusiano]

A TMS would add several thousand to the cost of the car, additional weight, and loss of range due to that weight and additional power draw. There's always a tradeoff.

Nissan wanted to make the LEAF affordable while maximizing range, so they took the gamble and went with a passive battery cooling scheme. This gamble seems to have paid off more than backfired so far.
=Smidge=

I doubt it is as heavy or expensive as you claim. Heck, GM did it, and added a gasoline engine in the Volt.

In the Rav4 EV Gen II, they use the exact same AC pump for the battery and the cabin. Sorry, not buying that it's "too heavy or expensive". Yes, it does weight something, and cost something. Even moderate climates with quick charging get hot. I've been at 10 bars (about 130F) after quick charging multiple times on June 19, 2012, while in 65F ambient temps. Imagine trying that in Phoenix in June.

Insulation is dirt cheap and light to put around the battery.

I agree with Tony. The Volt uses the exact same AC compressor and coolant pump for both the battery and the cabin, too. They just use a 3-way coolant flow control valve to redirect the coolant to the appropriate places.

Also, the new 2014 Chevy Spark EV has an MSRP of $32.5K. It has TMS, and a 20KWH battery. So it is comparable to the LEAF in size and range and battery capacity, and in the same price range. So if GM can manage to produce a comparable car to the LEAF at the same price range and manage to include TMS and be in the same price range, why can't Nissan?

 

[surfingslovak]

It will be interesting to see how BEVs with active TMS handle the summer and how their range is affected. So far there haven't been many (any?) such vehicles. The Volt is an PHEV so you don't care if its range suffers. The Leaf is the only BEV sold in 50 states but it doesn't have TMS.

Will be interesting to hear this summer from folks who get the Spark and are in some hot climate, I guess in CA only since they're not selling it in AZ. Other BEVs are either not out yet or sell in such small quantities to practically be non-existent. Include Spark, 500e, Focus electric, Fit.

For one of those vehicles, does sitting parked on a hot day drain the battery (range) significantly due to the TMS running to keep the battery cool? Does the TMS run at all while its not plugged in and off?

I'm of the opinion that Nissan will likely add TMS next rev but I think the current car is great.

While the observations you make are generally true, you would be surprised how hawkishly many Volt owners are monitoring their EV range. I used to follow their forum actively, since I considered a Volt early on. There is a number of owners, who has both vehicles, the LEAF and the Volt. While a TMS will affect the range, from what I've gathered, the system was designed carefully, and the impact is limited. Owners have shared some data, and it looks like the energy cost of running a TMS even in Phoenix is palatable. I don't have the time to link this information here, but it's available and it has been discussed on this forum. If you look for the Town Hall meeting with Andy Palmer on YouTube, you will also see that Nissan is pursuing a particular design philosophy, and a TMS is not planned. At least it was not part of Nissan's strategy last January, if you give Andy's words proper weight.

 

[jhm614]

Also, the new 2014 Chevy Spark EV has an MSRP of $32.5K.

I think the MSRP has dropped to $27,495 for the base model.

 

[Smidge204]

I doubt it is as heavy or expensive as you claim. Heck, GM did it, and added a gasoline engine in the Volt.

And recall that the 2011 Volt was also ~$8K more than the 2011 LEAF despite having a smaller battery, not using the more expensive aluminum body panels, sharing a major components/platform with the Cruze, and being a smaller vehicle overall.

Don't forget that there is more to cost than just parts. It's also labor, engineering, factory floorspace, etc. Adding a TMS to the LEAF could easily bump the price up $5K and pack on another 50+ pounds when all is said and done.

Also, the new 2014 Chevy Spark EV has an MSRP of $32.5K. It has TMS, and a 20KWH battery. So it is comparable to the LEAF in size and range and battery capacity, and in the same price range. So if GM can manage to produce a comparable car to the LEAF at the same price range and manage to include TMS and be in the same price range, why can't Nissan?

Aren't they just putting EV drivetrains into a Spark chassis? If Nissan was shoving electric drivetrains into Versa chassis, that might be a more valid comparison. Plus all their engineering overhead went into the Volt, so that metaphorical wheel was already invented.
=Smidge=

 

[WetEV]

I doubt it is as heavy or expensive as you claim.

Nothing can be ideal.

Always tradeoffs. Sometimes column A is the best choice. Sometimes column B. Depends on lots of things.

A TMS adds some expense, but probably not thousands of dollars. A TMS adds some weight, for hoses, coolent, larger pumps, heat exchanging, etc. A TMS removes some range, usually not a lot. A TMS will consume power.

A TMS would allow longer battery life, especially in hot places. Not so much in others.

A TMS would allow for more DCQC sessions in a day without overheating the battery. Not so useful if you rarely use DCQC.

Plus and minus. Your sum will be different than mine as we have different details, requirements, wishes, values.

 

[dwmccoy]

I doubt it is as heavy or expensive as you claim.

Nothing can be ideal.

Always tradeoffs. Sometimes column A is the best choice. Sometimes column B. Depends on lots of things.

A TMS adds some expense, but probably not thousands of dollars. A TMS adds some weight, for hoses, coolent, larger pumps, heat exchanging, etc. A TMS removes some range, usually not a lot. A TMS will consume power.

A TMS would allow longer battery life, especially in hot places. Not so much in others.

A TMS would allow for more DCQC sessions in a day without overheating the battery. Not so useful if you rarely use DCQC.

Plus and minus. Your sum will be different than mine as we have different details, requirements, wishes, values.

Great summary...It would have been and would be nice to have at least had the option to add a TMS to Leafs on extreme hot and cold areas.

 

[WetEV]

Great summary...It would have been and would be nice to have at least had the option to add a TMS to Leafs on extreme hot and cold areas.

It would require specific changes to the Leaf to make this option available. These would not be free. If nothing else, would have added engineering cost and risk to the development. Sometimes buying a separate hammer and saw is better than buying a combo tool.


Might be better to look at BEVs with TMS available now.

Right now, as I understand it, there are a range of choices:

1) Sold everywhere cars:
Leaf, Tesla, Ford Focus BEV, iMiev?, Smart EV Gen3 after September... Did I miss any that are currently for sale? Others are coming.

2) Compliance cars sold or leased only in short lists of states in very limited numbers.
I'll ignore these. I suggest you do the same.


The Leaf seems a bad choice due to battery lifetime for hot climates. The Tesla is wonderful, but $$$$. Ford Focus BEV is a nice car, more expensive than the Leaf but rather less than Tesla. I've driven one over an extended period of time, and if I lived in AZ or TX I would probably would be an owner of one. The Smart EV Gen3 is getting good press, but I've not seen or driven one, and probably will not until at least September. Probably not for everyone.

 

[dwmccoy]

This was released today.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-21/gone-in-90-seconds-teslas-battery-swapping-magic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The industry is changing rapidly and steered by a few leaders in this space. Having a battery swap capability would take the battery issues off of the consumer and back to the manufacturer. I know many will state Tesla is expensive and I agree today, but they have announced a new lower cost ride in the future.

 

[TomT]

And to have had Nissan be truthful and tell us just how dramatically those extremes would affect the battery when the car was first being hawked, rather than telling us that their testing showed that heat was not a problem or issue.

It would have been and would be nice to have at least had the option to add a TMS to Leafs on extreme hot and cold areas.

 

[myleaf]

Hi everyone:

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Brian Brockman, and I am a senior manager in corporate communications at Nissan, based at our Americas HQ in Franklin, Tenn.

If you're a 2011 or 2012 LEAF owner, you'll receive a letter in the mail in the coming week or so confirming the expanded warranty coverage for your LEAF, as well as details on a software update available through your Nissan LEAF dealer for your battery capacity meter and on-board charger. I've pasted the text of that letter below for you to check out. As you are some of our most engaged owners, we wanted to give you a heads-up on this development.


Brian

Did anyone receive a letter yet ???

 

[derkraut]

I haven't received the letter yet. But, I really don't care.

 

[TickTock]

Hi everyone:

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Brian Brockman, and I am a senior manager in corporate communications at Nissan, based at our Americas HQ in Franklin, Tenn.

If you're a 2011 or 2012 LEAF owner, you'll receive a letter in the mail in the coming week or so confirming the expanded warranty coverage for your LEAF, as well as details on a software update available through your Nissan LEAF dealer for your battery capacity meter and on-board charger. I've pasted the text of that letter below for you to check out. As you are some of our most engaged owners, we wanted to give you a heads-up on this development.


Brian

Did anyone receive a letter yet ???

Not I (I care since I am anticipating losing #4 before the end of the summer and am getting home on "fumes" now).

 

[Newporttom]

Have not received the letter but when I took car in for battery check Wed, the required update shows up in computer and they did it. I lost one bar about a week ago. (Florida)

 

[dwmccoy]

Have not received the letter but when I took car in for battery check Wed, the required update shows up in computer and they did it. I lost one bar about a week ago. (Florida)

I am very concerned this new update will push out the fourth bar time frame. I have lost, over the past year, enough actual driving range miles where I am at the now limit for my daily commute. I am hoping the fourth bar drops before any more actual miles drops yet again. This is really sad we as owners have to sit in fear and stress as to when we drop to the turtle mode level and can no longer use the car.

 

[TomT]

It's rather ironic that battery degradation concerns have virtually replaced earlier range anxiety for a sizable number of Leaf owners... Now we get to worry about the former because of the latter!

 

[LEAFfan]

I am very concerned this new update will push out the fourth bar time frame. I have lost, over the past year, enough actual driving range miles where I am at the now limit for my daily commute. I am hoping the fourth bar drops before any more actual miles drops yet again. This is really sad we as owners have to sit in fear and stress as to when we drop to the turtle mode level and can no longer use the car.

Not to worry, Tom found that in a few weeks it will all go back to the original readings.