Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[iluvmacs]

Your Volt numbers seem off. For the 2011 and 2012 Volts, 10.4 kWh of 16 kWh on the Volt are usable so that's only 65% at full charge. Once the range extender kicks in, it's 6 kWh of 16 remaining, or 37.5%. So it's only cycling between 65% and 37.5%.

Really, it only uses 27.5% of its pack? If it only goes from 6kWh to 10.4kWh, that means it only uses 4.4kWh of the battery... So getting that 35-45 miles is close to 10 miles/kWh. I think not.

 

[Stoaty]

Your Volt numbers seem off. For the 2011 and 2012 Volts, 10.4 kWh of 16 kWh on the Volt are usable so that's only 65% at full charge. Once the range extender kicks in, it's 6 kWh of 16 remaining, or 37.5%. So it's only cycling between 65% and 37.5%.

Incorrect. See:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scroll part way down to find volt data and reference.

 

[dhanson865]

Your Volt numbers seem off. For the 2011 and 2012 Volts, 10.4 kWh of 16 kWh on the Volt are usable so that's only 65% at full charge. Once the range extender kicks in, it's 6 kWh of 16 remaining, or 37.5%. So it's only cycling between 65% and 37.5%.

Incorrect. See:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scroll part way down to find volt data and reference.

He got the 65% part right, which to me is more important than the exact percentage for the bottom and top.

GM uses just 65% of the Volts battery capacity, setting the limits at about 22% SOC on the low end and 87% SOC on the high end

 

[RegGuheert]

Furthermore, it's very situational and may not necessarily be universal. While you can argue that maybe it's a tad better for situations where drivers use 40 miles a day, you can also argue that for situations where drivers need to use 60 miles a day or more, the scenario will be reversed and the LEAF will be forced to reach deeper into its SOC pocket to meet the demand, while the Volt is protected from the deep ends and will be forced to switch over to gas instead.

Agreed. It is absolutely situational, just as need for the TMS is situational and is largely related to climate.

Why do I feel like this is a debate in the Volt vs LEAF thread that already happened and is being hashed out again here? Maybe we should take it back up over there instead. But I think the same old points have been said and debated already over there anyway.

It didn't start there. I posted the following information comparing this new LEAF battery capacity warranty to the one for the Volt. Frankly, I think both warranties seem to protect against similar amounts of degradation when aligned for time/distance, but the higher percentage guaranteed earlier for the LEAF is probably better suited for the LEAF.

Also, I find it interesting to compare the battery capacity warranties between the Nissan LEAF and the Chevy Volt:

Vehicle        Months/Miles   %Degradation        %OfBatteryLeft
------------------------------------------------------------------
Chevy Volt      96/100,000         30%          70% of 65% = 45.5%
Nissan LEAF     60/60,000          30%          70% of 92% = 64.4%

In other words, Nissan warrants that LEAF owners will have access to the same percent of the overall battery capacity after 5 years and 60,000 miles as Chevrolet Volt owners have when new, although Chevrolet does not warrant that this much capacity will ever be available. And keep in mind the capacity of the LEAF battery is 50% larger than the battery capacity of the Volt to start with.

Put another way, to match the Chevrolet Volt battery warranty, Nissan would need to add a 45% capacity warranty at 8 years and 100,000 miles.

The difference is that Chevrolet hides capacity (and therefore capacity loss) from the owners to reduce cycling losses and so that owners do not feel the loss of capacity the way LEAF owners do. It's working. Chevrolet Volt owners are blissfully ignorant of the fact that their batteries are degrading while Nissan LEAF owners are painfully aware of this fact.

Frankly, I'll take Nissan's warranty over Chevy's warranty.

 

[shrink]

Your Volt numbers seem off. For the 2011 and 2012 Volts, 10.4 kWh of 16 kWh on the Volt are usable so that's only 65% at full charge. Once the range extender kicks in, it's 6 kWh of 16 remaining, or 37.5%. So it's only cycling between 65% and 37.5%.

Really, it only uses 27.5% of its pack? If it only goes from 6kWh to 10.4kWh, that means it only uses 4.4kWh of the battery... So getting that 35-45 miles is close to 10 miles/kWh. I think not.

That's not what I meant. 10.4 kWh of 16 kWh is used before the range extender starts.

But yes, I was incorrect in claiming the unusable 5.6 kWh (which I rounded to 6) meant a higher SOC. I was just trying to make the point that less of the battery capacity is used.

I stand corrected.

 

[RegGuheert]

I was just trying to make the point that less of the battery capacity is used.

Your point is lost on me. As I said, the Volt uses the battery between 85% and 20%, which is 65% of the total.

 

[solarman]

I've read the letter several times and I AM NOT SATISFIED ! OK, so Nissan spells out in more details the terms of the battery warranty - fine, but am I the only person wondering what the software change really does? The letter states more than once that the update provides benefits and improvements available on the MY 2013 production model. It also states that the update "DOES NOT CHANGE the amount of capacity represented by each of the bars in the meter". A LEAF driver who had the update installed said she noticed no changes on her display indicators. So WHAT IS DIFFERENT? What benefits and improvements are available to the driver? Why state in the letter that the update provides the same benefits and improvement available on the MY 2013 if these are not evident, like the Battery % SOC gauge. So what are the hidden benefits (besides charger compatibility)? How do I know Nissan didn't just change the software to prevent the capacity gauge from ever displaying less than 9 bars?!?

 

[TomT]

I have a list of other things to have done tomorrow and will have them do this at the same time so we shall see...

I've read the letter several times and I AM NOT SATISFIED ! OK, so Nissan spells out in more details the terms of the battery warranty - fine, but am I the only person wondering what the software change really does?

 

[Volusiano]

I've read the letter several times and I AM NOT SATISFIED ! OK, so Nissan spells out in more details the terms of the battery warranty - fine, but am I the only person wondering what the software change really does? The letter states more than once that the update provides benefits and improvements available on the MY 2013 production model. It also states that the update "DOES NOT CHANGE the amount of capacity represented by each of the bars in the meter". A LEAF driver who had the update installed said she noticed no changes on her display indicators. So WHAT IS DIFFERENT? What benefits and improvements are available to the driver? Why state in the letter that the update provides the same benefits and improvement available on the MY 2013 if these are not evident, like the Battery % SOC gauge. So what are the hidden benefits (besides charger compatibility)? How do I know Nissan didn't just change the software to prevent the capacity gauge from ever displaying less than 9 bars?!?

Although Nissan no longer publishes publicly how much the capacity is represented by each bar, it's commonly knowledge based on a previously published older version of the service manual that the first top bar represents 15% of the capacity, and each subsequent bar 6.25%. I think what Nissan is saying is that this representation has not been changed by the sw update. But it lends to confusion because Nissan no longer details what the capacity representation is for each bar, so people don't know what they refer to.

The benefits and improvements from the software update Nissan refers to is simply a more accurate reading of the capacity loss. Nissan said the old algorithm they used erred on the pessimistic side. For example, you might have only lost 13% capacity for real, but first bar (15% loss) already disappeared because the old algorithm might have rounded it out to 15%. But with the new algorithm, the first bar won't disappear until you really lost 15% or very close to it. So the accuracy improvement will yield benefits alright, but more to Nissan's benefit, because now they won't have to honor warranty loss due to a pessimistic reading -> less premature warranty claim with the new algorithm.

The accuracy improvement on the capacity bar reading is not something easily noticeable by anybody overnight, because there's really no "before/after" comparison. If you're already well past the first bar loss, the sw update won't bring it back. If you just lost a bar very recently, the sw update may bring the bar back, but probably not for long before it disappears again. That's the only time when you may notice the improvement, and not too many people would happen to be in that particular situation at the particular time of the update. If you've never lost a bar, you'll never know the difference.

 

[LEAFfan]

I've read the letter several times and I AM NOT SATISFIED ! OK, so Nissan spells out in more details the terms of the battery warranty - fine, but am I the only person wondering what the software change really does? The letter states more than once that the update provides benefits and improvements available on the MY 2013 production model. It also states that the update "DOES NOT CHANGE the amount of capacity represented by each of the bars in the meter". A LEAF driver who had the update installed said she noticed no changes on her display indicators. So WHAT IS DIFFERENT? What benefits and improvements are available to the driver? Why state in the letter that the update provides the same benefits and improvement available on the MY 2013 if these are not evident, like the Battery % SOC gauge. So what are the hidden benefits (besides charger compatibility)? How do I know Nissan didn't just change the software to prevent the capacity gauge from ever displaying less than 9 bars?!?

Although Nissan no longer publishes publicly how much the capacity is represented by each bar, it's commonly knowledge based on a previously published older version of the service manual that the first top bar represents 15% of the capacity, and each subsequent bar 6.25%. I think what Nissan is saying is that this representation has not been changed by the sw update. But it lends to confusion because Nissan no longer details what the capacity representation is for each bar, so people don't know what they refer to.

The benefits and improvements from the software update Nissan refers to is simply a more accurate reading of the capacity loss. Nissan said the old algorithm they used erred on the pessimistic side. For example, you might have only lost 13% capacity for real, but first bar (15% loss) already disappeared because the old algorithm might have rounded it out to 15%. But with the new algorithm, the first bar won't disappear until you really lost 15% or very close to it. So the accuracy improvement will yield benefits alright, but more to Nissan's benefit, because now they won't have to honor warranty loss due to a pessimistic reading -> less premature warranty claim with the new algorithm.

The accuracy improvement on the capacity bar reading is not something easily noticeable by anybody overnight, because there's really no "before/after" comparison. If you're already well past the first bar loss, the sw update won't bring it back. If you just lost a bar very recently, the sw update may bring the bar back, but probably not for long before it disappears again. That's the only time when you may notice the improvement, and not too many people would happen to be in that particular situation at the particular time of the update. If you've never lost a bar, you'll never know the difference.

IF a CB did come back, it would more than likely disappear again very soon.

 

[ChinaDad]

Hi everyone:

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Brian Brockman, and I am a senior manager in corporate communications at Nissan, based at our Americas HQ in Franklin, Tenn. While LEAF is fairly new to my list of official job responsibilities, I've been engaged in the program for some time, serving as our Midwest communications manager based in Michigan since 2007.

So I don't stretch this post too long, I'll get to the business of the day. Back in December, Jeff posted a message from Andy Palmer (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=253595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false outlining the expanded warranty protection against capacity loss in the LEAF's lithium-ion battery. In that message, they said that the warranty would go into effect this Spring for 2011 and 2012 LEAF owners. Today, I want to give you an update on that roll-out.

If you're a 2011 or 2012 LEAF owner, you'll receive a letter in the mail in the coming week or so confirming the expanded warranty coverage for your LEAF, as well as details on a software update available through your Nissan LEAF dealer for your battery capacity meter and on-board charger. I've pasted the text of that letter below for you to check out. As you are some of our most engaged owners, we wanted to give you a heads-up on this development.

(Note: For 2013 LEAF owners, this coverage was part of your battery warranty at purchase, and is outlined in your warranty information booklet.)

Thank you for your time, and for your continued feedback. It's exciting to see so many enthusiastic and engaged LEAF owners. I look forward to more conversations with you in the future.

Brian

--



Dear Nissan LEAF Owner:

Nissan values the feedback that we receive from our owners, and we try to use your comments to improve our products. With the goal to provide the highest level of customer satisfaction, Nissan is now offering two ongoing improvements for your Nissan LEAF.

First, Nissan is providing a new software enhancement for model year 2011-2012 LEAF vehicles, updating them with the software currently used in production for 2013 model year LEAF vehicles. The software enhancement is aimed at improving the accuracy of the battery capacity level gauge and providing greater compatibility with an expanded range of EV charging equipment.

Second, Nissan is now implementing expanded coverage under its New Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty, to protect against capacity loss in your LEAF’s lithium-ion battery, as previously announced by Nissan in December 2012.

SOFTWARE ENHANCEMENT

The 2013 LEAF features many improvements, including updated software that improves the performance of the battery capacity level gauge (outlined below) to more accurately reflect actual battery capacity. This update does not change the amount of capacity represented by the each of the bars in the meter.

In addition, the vehicle’s on-board charger software has been enhanced to improve compatibility with a broader range of EV charging equipment. By updating the software for 2011 and 2012 vehicles, Nissan is providing customers with the benefits of these ongoing improvements enjoyed by owners of the 2013 LEAF.

WHAT NISSAN WILL DO

To ensure your continued satisfaction and confidence in your car, your EV Certified Nissan dealer will update the software as described above at no cost to you for parts and labor.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

Contact your EV Certified Nissan dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange your appointment. This service is free of charge and the work should take less than 2 hours to complete. To ensure the greatest convenience to you, it is important that you have an appointment before bringing your vehicle to the dealer for this service. Please bring this notice with you to your service appointment. Detailed instructions have been sent to your EV Certified Nissan dealer.

EXPANDED WARRANTY COVERAGE

In addition to the existing lithium-ion battery coverage provided under the Nissan Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent) as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the lithium-ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original battery pack will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return the battery to an “as new” condition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.

Please apply the label at the bottom of this letter to your Warranty Information Booklet. If your vehicle’s battery capacity level is currently at or above nine (9) bars, no further action is required.

If your vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge is already displaying eight (8) or fewer bars of capacity prior to the above referenced software update (and within the first 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first), your Nissan dealer will verify this condition and arrange for the repair or replacement of the lithium-ion battery in accordance with the terms of the warranty.

Please note that replacement lithium-ion batteries may require special ordering which may delay the actual repair by several weeks. Your patience in these circumstances is appreciated.

If you have any questions about this announcement, you may contact the Nissan LEAF Call Center at 877-N0-GAS-EV (877-664-2738), or by writing us at Nissan North America, Inc., P.O. Box 685003, Franklin, TN 37068-5003.

Thank you for providing us an opportunity to ensure your satisfaction. We hope you continue to enjoy smooth, zero emissions driving in your Nissan LEAF!

Thanks Brian! Wish I had read this earlier today.

So far I have not received a letter. I live near Knoxville. My dealer said they have heard nothing about capacity problems or even any news about a new warranty being extended to 2011/12. Has been very frustrating. I did convince them to look for the software update notice which they found finally but said they could find nothing on a battery warranty. Should we all be notified soon? May I take that in to the dealer as their notification?

Thanks!

 

[dwmccoy]

Brian,

How can you sleep at night knowing how your company has deceived its Leaf customers?

Back in 2011 Nissan advertise many distorted and misleading advertisements regarding the Nissan Leaf. Claims of 100 mile range to the claim the Nissan Leaf would NOT lose more than 20% battery capacity over 5 year or 65,000 miles. However these claims had no backing as warrantee coverage misleading customers into a false sense of security in the performance of the Leaf’s lithium ion battery.

Now Nissan delivers a completely different percentage that is clouded in ambiguity. Nissan has announced anyone experiencing 8 or fewer bar of battery capacity may be eligible for repair or replacement. My simple math of dividing 4 lost bars from the total 12 bars yield 33.33%. This is significantly higher than the earlier advertised claim of no more than 20% in 5 years or 65,000 miles.

The truth is Nissan poorly engineered the Nissan Leaf’s lithium ion battery and failed to incorporate any thermal management system. This is something many of the other manufacturers found critical to the long term success of their EV battery system. Additionally, none of these manufacturers are experiencing battery problems. Only Nissan has customers with premature battery failures.

Please take this message home to Nissan corporate, I and many of the duped Leaf owners will never buy another Nissan product. Furthermore, we will place extra effort in spreading the word on how Nissan has provided lowest level of customer satisfaction.

It would have been far easier and less costly in the long run for Nissan to own up to their mistake and correct the battery problem.

I have personally talked with well over 100 plus people regarding the Nissan Leaf and delivered my message of how bad my experience has been. I do know of a least 2 interested buyers in the Leaf I have steered away to a better supported manufacturer. I am sure these newly informed individuals will continue spreading the message they have heard from me. This will cost Nissan in the long run.

 

[Valdemar]

I want to find battery replacement cost before starting to flame Nissan for not including the TMS. But I don't live in AZ or TX.

 

[dwmccoy]

I am just stating facts I have experienced and researched. As to battery replacement costs, I was told today (from my local Nissan service manager) their cost was over $10,000. When I bought my 2011 Leaf, the sales rep advised me the battery comprised $17,000 to $18,000 of the over all cost of the car.

Check out the resale value on used Leafs. It will surprise you.

 

[cwerdna]

I am just stating facts I have experienced and researched. As to battery replacement costs, I was told today (from my local Nissan service manager) their cost was over $10,000. When I bought my 2011 Leaf, the sales rep advised me the battery comprised $17,000 to $18,000 of the over all cost of the car.

Check out the resale value on used Leafs. It will surprise you.

What are you do you live in?

We are supposed to find out the replacement cost in spring of this year, which ends on 6/20.

We do have a resale value discussion thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[Valdemar]

I am just stating facts I have experienced and researched. As to battery replacement costs, I was told today (from my local Nissan service manager) their cost was over $10,000. When I bought my 2011 Leaf, the sales rep advised me the battery comprised $17,000 to $18,000 of the over all cost of the car.

Check out the resale value on used Leafs. It will surprise you.

The resale value is low, but it is not terribly bad considering the tax credit, state rebates, and savings on fuel. I will save over 10k in fuel alone over 5 years comparing to the ICE car the Leaf replaced, so I will be ok with spending 10k on a new battery if really need to.

 

[dwmccoy]

I am located in Phoenix, AZ.

I see many of the post from non-hot states and the TMS may not be an issue. However, I spoke to my Nissan service department today and he advised me he alone has turned 4 Leaf owners away with 3 bar gone this week. I also mentioned they have had 2 battery replacements (4 or more bars gone). with several Nissan dealers in the Phoenix area, this one shop reflects many owner experiencing premature battery issue due to temperature.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Doh! Sorry to hear about that.

Yes, I'm well aware of the rapid capacity loss in Phoenix and other hot climate areas. Sucks to be owner there. Hopefully you can bear driving the car w/4 capacity bars gone and that you can get it replaced before the 5 year/60K capacity warranty is up. After that, you're on your own.

How many capacity bars have you lost? If you've lost any, is it listed at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

There is a summary and link to the Phoenix Leaf town hall meeting at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Nissan is well aware of the issue in hot climates. Not sure if you've watched http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (that was from before the town hall).

 

[dwmccoy]

I am under a lease and about half way through it. I did not have the confidence in purchasing and wanted an easy out.

 

[dwmccoy]

I have lost 3 bars with approximately 26k miles.

How can I post my specifics to the wiki "Real World Battery Capacity Loss" page? This is important statistics to be seen.