Upcoming call to Aerovironment about DC quick chargers

[GeekEV]

But to me this just seems self-defeating. The whole idea of QC is, well, quick charging. If you limit it to a fraction of its capability, increasing charging times accordingly, it loses much of its attraction and usefulness that would have been the main reason for drawing people to it in the first place...

Granted. But it would still be WAY faster than the onboard charger...

 

[Ingineer]

But to me this just seems self-defeating. The whole idea of QC is, well, quick charging. If you limit it to a fraction of its capability, increasing charging times accordingly, it loses much of its attraction and usefulness that would have been the main reason for drawing people to it in the first place...

I'm not suggesting we roll out limited (or medium rate) QC's across the state, but there are PLENTY of scenarios where this could be useful. Imagine if you could charge at 10kW over a lunch break, that could add almost 40 miles to your range and make or break the viability of using your LEAF in plenty of scenarios.

We've had requests from companies wanting to use the LEAF for fleet use, such as deliveries, etc, and charging while loading at a depot could make the project work.

There's also the issue of the power draw; As Tony points out, there's no possible way you could install a full 50kW QC in a residential situation or many small businesses, but you could install a smaller unit. This alone is a trump card!

Then we have the issue of battery heating. If you can charge at a lower rate, you have less cell heating and therefore you can do it more often and have less degradation than a full QC.

People that can afford and install a full 50kW QC can still buy one, but if we can offer a smaller unit for substantially less $, then that opens up a lot more possibilities! If you think it's self-defeating, please don't buy one! It's a free market, and the way I see it, more options is always better for us!

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

Any options that include pumping pollutants into California have limited practicality. Generators have to be mobile, and not be used over 60 days.

Even within the 60 days, it still has to be CARB listed and compliant to Tier 3 or 4.

I did come up with another scheme, however. 5 minute charging at full 48kW, then 10 minute rest. The LEAF driver gets 10 miles more quickly, and moves on. The demand fee shouldn't kick in because the 15 minute average will be less than 20kW.

 

[Ingineer]

I would LOVE to run 240v single phase at 80amps. That would be my first choice, particularly if it's easy to switch back to 480v*100a/3phase in the future, should CPUC rulings change (or we add some type of battery power). I'm going to guess that all the electronics are typically 100v-240v powered. I personally have no expertise in this area.

An interface board seems more problematic, but I like where you're going with this. We could build our own casting for the ChaDeMo connector, and inside would be the electronics. Or would it be simpler and smarter to put the electronic control "intercepts" in the box? Ok, I'll just answer that myself, and say yes, put the stuff in the box.

Do you have a firm enough grasp of the ChaDeMo language to build a circuit to do this?

Yes, I can rather easily build an add-in board that will limit any existing QC to whatever level desired. We are also working on a small CHAdeMO charger design of our own. It would be built as a small unit from the ground up, and would be compatible with single phase service. We haven't yet finalized on the size or features, but we will definitely keep everyone posted.

I can tell you that the single most expensive part of a lower-powered system is most definitely the CHAdeMO connector itself, costing well in excess of several thousand dollars. Yazaki is the only supplier at present, and the complex design of this connector is also a limiting factor in possible cost reductions. We are looking at a possible simplification of the connector that would still be 100% compatible with the inlet, yet maybe rated for lower duty use. For instance, it could omit the low insertion force with handle cam-action and electronic locking features the existing Yazaki design sports, while still being safe and easy to use. The Yazaki design was intended for heavy-duty public use where the "little old lady" and/or ADA accessibility may be an issue, but for something a private individual or business might wish to purchase, these features are not required.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

I would LOVE to run 240v single phase at 80amps. That would be my first choice, particularly if it's easy to switch back to 480v*100a/3phase in the future......
Do you have a firm enough grasp of the ChaDeMo language to build a circuit to do this?

Yes, I can rather easily build an add-in board that will limit any existing QC to whatever level desired. We are also working on a small CHAdeMO charger design of our own. It would be built as a small unit from the ground up, and would be compatible with single phase service. We haven't yet finalized on the size or features, but we will definitely keep everyone posted.

You can do both; the controller card add-in, and the change to the power supply to 240v single or 208v three phase?

Great news on your next gig. The "shop" ChaDeMo unit sold in Switzerland for 18.3kW charging is very, very expensive for the market it seems that it would appeal to. Plus, a household (residential) unit would not be subject to demand charges !!!! So, I'll take mine at 240v, 120amps, thanks!! :mrgreen:

 

[edatoakrun]

... We are also working on a small CHAdeMO charger design of our own. It would be built as a small unit from the ground up, and would be compatible with single phase service. We haven't yet finalized on the size or features, but we will definitely keep everyone posted...
-Phil

Great news, Phil.

And I promise not to complain, even if your design is far too efficient to be used to heat up water for my shower...

Isn’t it inherently inefficient to build the charger into the BEV, and lug it around on battery power? Once there is a DC infrastructure, isn’t it logical to assume ALL dedicated charge locations will evolve toward DC, so the charger can be utilized by whatever BEV is plugged in, and the energy of the “waste” heat can be recovered for other uses?

Shouldn't the future we are all looking toward (be) DC public charging, AND DC home charging?

By the time my 2014 Esflow is delivered, why won’t I be able to plug both it and my 2011 Leaf into the same 80 amp wall mount charger, and charge both of them overnight through their CHAdeMo DC receptacles, at near 100% efficiency, as the “waste” inverter heat is pumped into my home's hot water heater tank?

And maybe my 2018 LEAF won’t even have (or need) an AC charger, or the inverter, radiator, coolant pump, etc...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6215&start=110

 

[Ingineer]

I would LOVE to run 240v single phase at 80amps. That would be my first choice, particularly if it's easy to switch back to 480v*100a/3phase in the future......
Do you have a firm enough grasp of the ChaDeMo language to build a circuit to do this?

Yes, I can rather easily build an add-in board that will limit any existing QC to whatever level desired. We are also working on a small CHAdeMO charger design of our own. It would be built as a small unit from the ground up, and would be compatible with single phase service. We haven't yet finalized on the size or features, but we will definitely keep everyone posted.

You can do both; the controller card add-in, and the change to the power supply to 240v single or 208v three phase?

Great news on your next gig. The "shop" ChaDeMo unit sold in Switzerland for 18.3kW charging is very, very expensive for the market it seems that it would appeal to. Plus, a household (residential) unit would not be subject to demand charges !!!! So, I'll take mine at 240v, 120amps, thanks!! :mrgreen:

I can't comment on any particular unit's conversion from 3-phase to single, until I have a look at it, but it shouldn't be too hard on most designs.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

I can't comment on any particular unit's conversion from 3-phase to single, until I have a look at it, but it shouldn't be too hard on most designs.

-Phil

Ok, thanks. I think I've contacted just about every DC charger manufacturer in the world now. Eaton somehow got missed. Does anybody know if their unit is UL listed? Isn't that the unit at Mitsubishi HQ ?

 

[EVDrive]

+1. I think the high amp 240 v option is the most scalable at least until the demand cost issue is resolved in CA and the QC stations come down in price to $5-10k. Even when those two things happen, 240 v power is everywhere while 440 v is not, which is limiting. Best of luck with your project Phil.

But to me this just seems self-defeating. The whole idea of QC is, well, quick charging. If you limit it to a fraction of its capability, increasing charging times accordingly, it loses much of its attraction and usefulness that would have been the main reason for drawing people to it in the first place...

I'm not suggesting we roll out limited (or medium rate) QC's across the state, but there are PLENTY of scenarios where this could be useful. Imagine if you could charge at 10kW over a lunch break, that could add almost 40 miles to your range and make or break the viability of using your LEAF in plenty of scenarios.

We've had requests from companies wanting to use the LEAF for fleet use, such as deliveries, etc, and charging while loading at a depot could make the project work.

There's also the issue of the power draw; As Tony points out, there's no possible way you could install a full 50kW QC in a residential situation or many small businesses, but you could install a smaller unit. This alone is a trump card!

Then we have the issue of battery heating. If you can charge at a lower rate, you have less cell heating and therefore you can do it more often and have less degradation than a full QC.

People that can afford and install a full 50kW QC can still buy one, but if we can offer a smaller unit for substantially less $, then that opens up a lot more possibilities! If you think it's self-defeating, please don't buy one! It's a free market, and the way I see it, more options is always better for us!

-Phil

 

[Phoenix]

You go, Phil! I'm in line for your distributed solutions.

Eaton is related to E-Tec, Ecotality, Blink etc. They and AeroVironment have the only UL-certified models that I am aware of. Eaton installed Vacaville's TEPCO donated unit. Mitsubishi's unit in Cypress, CA is the TEPCO model?

 

[KJD]

Ok, thanks. I think I've contacted just about every DC charger manufacturer in the world now. Eaton somehow got missed. Does anybody know if their unit is UL listed? Isn't that the unit at Mitsubishi HQ ?

Tony did you contact these guys ?

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

...People that can afford and install a full 50kW QC can still buy one, but if we can offer a smaller unit for substantially less $, then that opens up a lot more possibilities! If you think it's self-defeating, please don't buy one! It's a free market, and the way I see it, more options is always better for us!

-Phil

Another application for the "medium level" DC connector you discussed (and maybe the whole unit, depending on the AC/DC generator output?) might be for mobile charging. I assume these trucks must use a multi-thousand $ CHAdeMO connector now, but that would not seem to be required, since they are operated by trained personnel, and only intended to deliver a few kWh in a few minutes.

AAA chose an interesting variety of generator power sources, as reported below, btw.

.“We’ll be rolled out in six cities by the end of the year,” John Nielson, the company’s national director of auto repair, tells us. “These trucks will be out on the road just like any other AAA service vehicle.”

...AAA announced the program in July, one month after Nissan and the Japan Automobile Federation deployed a truck in Tokyo. AAA will deploy one truck in each of the EV-crazy cities you’d expect: Portland, Oregon; Seattle; the San Francisco Bay Area; Los Angeles; Knoxville, Tennessee; and Tampa, Florida.

...“I think we’ll see rapid expansion to other cities with electric vehicles,” Nielson says. “But right now the goal is to make sure the proof of concept is durable.”

Each truck will have a conventional 220-volt Level 2 charger and a 440-volt direct current Level 3 charger — the so-called “quick chargers.” Although quick charging can “fill” a depleted battery in as little as 30 minutes, not all cars are equipped for it. The trucks have 25 kilowatt generators manufactured by Aerovironment and Green Charge Networks.

“Our goal is to provide 15 miles of range in 10 minutes of charging,” Nielson said.

...As for those generators, two will run on compressed natural gas, two will be powered by lithium-ion batteries charged by a dedicated high-amperage alternator and two will use hydraulic power take-off from the truck’s transmission...

http://www.wired.com/autopia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Ingineer]

You go, Phil! I'm in line for your distributed solutions.

Eaton is related to E-Tec, Ecotality, Blink etc. They and AeroVironment have the only UL-certified models that I am aware of. Eaton installed Vacaville's TEPCO donated unit. Mitsubishi's unit in Cypress, CA is the TEPCO model?

Eaton is just distributing the TEPCO units. If you note, all the Eaton units are all identical to the TEPCO installed in Vacaville, they just have more recent software. You can see the Japanese-Standard Color codes in the wiring even.

So the "UL Listed" argument is pretty much bunk, as the same units have been Listed properly.

-Phil

 

[N952JL]

Yes, I can rather easily build an add-in board that will limit any existing QC to whatever level desired. We are also working on a small CHAdeMO charger design of our own. It would be built as a small unit from the ground up, and would be compatible with single phase service. We haven't yet finalized on the size or features, but we will definitely keep everyone posted.

I can tell you that the single most expensive part of a lower-powered system is most definitely the CHAdeMO connector itself, costing well in excess of several thousand dollars. Yazaki is the only supplier at present, and the complex design of this connector is also a limiting factor in possible cost reductions. We are looking at a possible simplification of the connector that would still be 100% compatible with the inlet, yet maybe rated for lower duty use. For instance, it could omit the low insertion force with handle cam-action and electronic locking features the existing Yazaki design sports, while still being safe and easy to use. The Yazaki design was intended for heavy-duty public use where the "little old lady" and/or ADA accessibility may be an issue, but for something a private individual or business might wish to purchase, these features are not required.

-Phil

Phil,
I just found this tread and I often wonder about a few things. One, why build the charger in the car? If the EVSE were a complete charger we could eliminate that part from the car. If all chargers were QC we wouldn't need to build one into the car. We could have a low power small QC to carry in the car that would plug into ether 110 or 220 12A up to 40A/50A. Then at the house have a 220v 40A to 90A charger. Both would use the QC plug. If you limited the QC to 40a/50a you would not need to worry about the battery as that would be about the same as the 6.6kW chargers coming out in MY2013.

That would eliminate the need for the charger to be part of the car. You could upgrade to the higher 6.6kW at any time. just a thought.

Joseph

 

[Ingineer]

Phil,
I just found this tread and I often wonder about a few things. One, why build the charger in the car? If the EVSE were a complete charger we could eliminate that part from the car. If all chargers were QC we wouldn't need to build one into the car. We could have a low power small QC to carry in the car that would plug into ether 110 or 220 12A up to 40A/50A. Then at the house have a 220v 40A to 90A charger. Both would use the QC plug. If you limited the QC to 40a/50a you would not need to worry about the battery as that would be about the same as the 6.6kW chargers coming out in MY2013.

That would eliminate the need for the charger to be part of the car. You could upgrade to the higher 6.6kW at any time. just a thought.

Joseph

Take this up with Nissan as that's the way they are building them, but I can tell you that even a 3.3kW charger is not very "portable". It would also have to have a fan and big heatsink, whereas in the car, it's liquid cooled. If you go 6.6kW it's getting almost too big to handle by one person, so opportunity charging at standard wall outlets, which we need the capability to do, is very cumbersome.

I'm not proposing to build anything I offer into the car. I think you misread my post, I was talking about Tony's request to add in a module to an existing CHAdeMO charger to reduce it's capacity so it would squeeze in under the peak demand rules.

All the benefits you discuss are still possible now, the only barrier to adding small off-board chargers is the current cost of the single-sourced CHAdeMO connector.

-Phil

 

[tbleakne]

I can tell you that the single most expensive part of a lower-powered system is most definitely the CHAdeMO connector itself, costing well in excess of several thousand dollars. Yazaki is the only supplier at present, and the complex design of this connector is also a limiting factor in possible cost reductions. We are looking at a possible simplification of the connector that would still be 100% compatible with the inlet, yet maybe rated for lower duty use. For instance, it could omit the low insertion force with handle cam-action and electronic locking features the existing Yazaki design sports, while still being safe and easy to use. The Yazaki design was intended for heavy-duty public use where the "little old lady" and/or ADA accessibility may be an issue, but for something a private individual or business might wish to purchase, these features are not required.

-Phil

Wow, you are saying that it is not just the single source for the CHAdeMO connector that causes this very high price, but also its complexity as currently configured. I applaud your efforts.

 

[edatoakrun]

I can tell you that the single most expensive part of a lower-powered system is most definitely the CHAdeMO connector itself, costing well in excess of several thousand dollars. Yazaki is the only supplier at present, and the complex design of this connector is also a limiting factor in possible cost reductions. We are looking at a possible simplification of the connector that would still be 100% compatible with the inlet, yet maybe rated for lower duty use. For instance, it could omit the low insertion force with handle cam-action and electronic locking features the existing Yazaki design sports, while still being safe and easy to use. The Yazaki design was intended for heavy-duty public use where the "little old lady" and/or ADA accessibility may be an issue, but for something a private individual or business might wish to purchase, these features are not required.

-Phil

Wow, you are saying that it is not just the single source for the CHAdeMO connector that causes this very high price, but also its complexity as currently configured. I applaud your efforts.

Are there any licensing questions or costs for other producers of CHAdeMO connectors, of other (simpler and cheaper) design, for "medium fast" DC chargers, that CHAdeMO inlet equipped EVs, such as the Leaf and Mitsubishi I, could use?

 

[GeekEV]

Are there any licensing questions or costs for other producers of CHAdeMO connectors, of other (simpler and cheaper) design, for "medium fast" DC chargers, that CHAdeMO inlet equipped EVs, such as the Leaf and Mitsubishi I, could use?

+1
I whole heartedly support Phil's effort for a lower cost DC charger, so I asked a few questions at our last Q&A session with a Nissan Engineer. One take-away from that is that even if you reverse engineered the protocol, plug, etc., he indicated that stuff was patented. Wouldn't such a unit be in violation of the patents and open you up to lawsuits? If you license the patents, that should provide you with all the specs you need to implement it - so... How is this viable?

 

[Ingineer]

Are there any licensing questions or costs for other producers of CHAdeMO connectors, of other (simpler and cheaper) design, for "medium fast" DC chargers, that CHAdeMO inlet equipped EVs, such as the Leaf and Mitsubishi I, could use?

+1
I whole heartedly support Phil's effort for a lower cost DC charger, so I asked a few questions at our last Q&A session with a Nissan Engineer. One take-away from that is that even if you reverse engineered the protocol, plug, etc., he indicated that stuff was patented. Wouldn't such a unit be in violation of the patents and open you up to lawsuits? If you license the patents, that should provide you with all the specs you need to implement it - so... How is this viable?

There is nothing preventing you from using the protocol and making your own, as long as you don't infringe on any patents. According to the CHAdeMO presentation, the connector design is an open standard, precisely so anyone can manufacture it. The protocol is not open, but neither is it patented that I can see.

That's ok if Nissan has "Stuff" Patented, we just will avoid using any of that "Stuff", and instead use "Things". =)

-Phil

 

[KJD]

Phil,

All the benefits you discuss are still possible now, the only barrier to adding small off-board chargers is the current cost of the single-sourced CHAdeMO connector.

-Phil

How much would it cost to buy a single CHAdeMO connector?

How many would a person have to buy to get a decent price?