Traded our LEAF for a week...

[dgpcolorado]

Ya, another example of the "blind leading the blind" here. might as well lump this into TCO of electric verses...well ANY car that burns gas.

if its a "normal" car. TCO is won after 3 years. if its an econo box (hand crank windows, AM radio, etc) it takes 6 years to win the TCO...

even with the odds that lopsided, its still a losing battle. people simply dont understand the difference between a $6,000 higher sticker verses an additional $2500 in fuel costs per year. how can ANYONE not see this?? ...

While I take your point that most people do not buy cars with TCO in mind, consider that just driving a used beater will be vastly less expensive than any new car, even accounting for repairs, and that's the real TCO comparison for the budget-minded. Also, what about the need to replace the battery periodically? A gigantic but unknown cost. TCO for the LEAF is hard to calculate.

The LEAF TCO works better for high miles per year drivers. For low annual miles drivers—about 7200 miles per year for me—there is no way the TCO can come close to just driving the ICE and then replacing it with another used car. For example: just adding my LEAF miles to my ICE car would add about $1150 in fuel costs at today's prices, plus perhaps another $300 in additional maintenance. Call it $1500 in savings a year (and not counting the savings in license and insurance for the LEAF). How on earth can $1500 a year pay for my LEAF? The numbers just don't work (for me, a low annual miles driver).

Same with solar panels: it depends on subsidies and the installation cost. Payback for my original panels is 35 years. Payback for my new panels is 22 years. So, they aren't remotely cost-effective! I bought my LEAF and solar panels to drive on sunpower and avoid using oil. As I've said before: "people buy less useful toys, do they not?"

TCO isn't everything.

 

[hill]

Ya, another example of the "blind leading the blind" here. might as well lump this into TCO of electric verses...well ANY car that burns gas.

if its a "normal" car. TCO is won after 3 years. if its an econo box (hand crank windows, AM radio, etc) it takes 6 years to win the TCO...

even with the odds that lopsided, its still a losing battle. people simply dont understand the difference between a $6,000 higher sticker verses an additional $2500 in fuel costs per year. how can ANYONE not see this?? ...

While I take your point that most people do not buy cars with TCO in mind, consider that just driving a used beater will be vastly less expensive than any new car, even accounting for repairs, and that's the real TCO comparison for the budget-minded. Also, what about the need to replace the battery periodically? A gigantic but unknown cost. . . . . . . . . . . . . . snip

According to the latest spin from Nissan, it won't be a gigantic cost. They're saying that Nissan won't HAVE to replace the pack . . . . only individual modules (ones w/ greatest resistance) . . . and thus, that's why the won't/can't give us a battery price. According to Nissan, it's infathomable that one would need to replace the entire pack. :lol: Think about it . . . . practically free! . . . . that makes me feel better.
.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

sounds great!! but unfortunately. that is not how degradation works IF the cells are matched and balanced at the factory and the BMS maintains that balance.

if mismatched cells are the case, they would have been flagged immediately in one of the SEVERAL tests performed. but since none of that happened and the cells are most likely matched (a few might be bad...but guessing that would be rare) that means each cell has lost capacity meaning to maintain balance, each cell would need to be replaced

 

[GRA]

sounds great!! but unfortunately. that is not how degradation works IF the cells are matched and balanced at the factory and the BMS maintains that balance.

if mismatched cells are the case, they would have been flagged immediately in one of the SEVERAL tests performed. but since none of that happened and the cells are most likely matched (a few might be bad...but guessing that would be rare) that means each cell has lost capacity meaning to maintain balance, each cell would need to be replaced

Dave, you need to dial your sarcasm detection up a couple of numbers (or even to '11').

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Ya o know Gary and i know he was being sarcastic but back to TCO... Since used cars are not part of the estimated 15 million new cars that will be sold in the upcoming year it is sad that several thousand potential EVs won't be in that equation due to the misconceptions perpetuated by the still resistant automobile industry

 

[palmermd]

NOTE TO CHRIS what i would do before picking up your LEAF is contact your local dealer to talk about cash for referrals. my local dealer offered it to me if i send people his way who end up buying and why not? worst they can say is no but nearly ALL dealerships have a referral program of one type or another.

most offer cash of $100-$250... then again, some offer (like where i worked at) $150 gas cards or 5 free oil changes...hopefully that wont be the case for you

That won't work in California. It is an illegal practice called "bird dogging". Any dealer caught doing this will get some serious fines.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/ol/ol_handbooks/ol40.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

NOTE TO CHRIS what i would do before picking up your LEAF is contact your local dealer to talk about cash for referrals. my local dealer offered it to me if i send people his way who end up buying and why not? worst they can say is no but nearly ALL dealerships have a referral program of one type or another.

most offer cash of $100-$250... then again, some offer (like where i worked at) $150 gas cards or 5 free oil changes...hopefully that wont be the case for you

That won't work in California. It is an illegal practice called "bird dogging". Any dealer caught doing this will get some serious fines.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/ol/ol_handbooks/ol40.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

oh well, guess not!

 

[Caracalover]

Just finished reading his entire blog, and I have to try to get him to also do a 180 on Romney.

I know it won't matter much in CA.

Romney has called the investment Obama has made in Tesla a failure. Nissan has also benefitted from the same policies that Tesla has enjoyed from this administration, and without those benefits, his week in a Leaf likely would never have happened.

With the money he is outlaying to drive his old time car with 290 hp, he might be able to afford a Tesla model S. Granted he would need his own financing and the wait would be long, but that car would blow his, his wife's, and his children's minds.

As for other options, wouldn't he agree more should be on the market? So why is Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc. etc. only making compliance vehicles and hoping for a Romney win?

Wouldn't it be a good future for his children if the USA was a leader toward a new future, rather than one mired in an oil burning past?

A belief that the Leaf will still be around in the future is all well and good, but to rely on others to take the money plunge is shortsighted, and could lead to the destruction of an industry that is really needed by this world - not just now, but 20 years ago. It should have happened then, why didn't it? Get him to watch the movie, "Who Killed the Electric Car".

This attitude of I'll wait and see is igorance in action, and sometimes when it feels right, you should make that impulse buy. He has already admitted he has done it before, why not make that leap of faith now? Fear is the only reason, and he has no reason to fear this. Nissan has made it the perfect halloween treat, leaving the tricks for those that need to buy oil.

Finally I have to say that if I had kids that were going to need a car, an electric one would be perfect. Safe, limited range to teach safe driving habits, and a physics lesson when they want to go further than they are telling mom and dad about. Also the reduced cost to operate would appeal to any teen on a limited budget. Stealing money for gasoline is not unheard of in teens, but getting arrested for stealing electricity to power a car is, at this point, unheard of.

The joy ride is back, and it is electric.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The joy ride is back, and it is electric.

Nice tag line! I can see this on a bumper sticker affixed to the rear bumper of a Tesla Roadster.

 

[jackncoke]

Finally I have to say that if I had kids that were going to need a car, an electric one would be perfect. Safe, limited range to teach safe driving habits, and a physics lesson when they want to go further than they are telling mom and dad about. Also the reduced cost to operate would appeal to any teen on a limited budget. Stealing money for gasoline is not unheard of in teens, but getting arrested for stealing electricity to power a car is, at this point, unheard of.

That's a great idea. Although my two little boys are very far away from teenage years, I will definitely come back to this. Seeing as how they're already riding in an EV, they'll already be used to the idea; and maybe by then EV's will be commonplace.

Anyway, I came to this thread today to ask if maybe Mr. Sean McClure exceeded his monthly bandwidth allotment for his blog? I wanted to see his wrap-up post, assuming he wrote one; and found the Web site was down. I, for one, hope he springs for more bandwidth because I've very much enjoyed reading his Leaf entries. Thanks to the person who started this thread for bringing it to my/our attention.

Edit: Never mind, it's back up again. Nice reading! Thanks again.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Finally I have to say that if I had kids that were going to need a car, an electric one would be perfect. Safe, limited range to teach safe driving habits, and a physics lesson when they want to go further than they are telling mom and dad about. Also the reduced cost to operate would appeal to any teen on a limited budget. Stealing money for gasoline is not unheard of in teens, but getting arrested for stealing electricity to power a car is, at this point, unheard of.

That's a great idea. Although my two little boys are very far away from teenage years, I will definitely come back to this. Seeing as how they're already riding in an EV, they'll already be used to the idea; and maybe by then EV's will be commonplace.

Anyway, I came to this thread today to ask if maybe Mr. Sean McClure exceeded his monthly bandwidth allotment for his blog? I wanted to see his wrap-up post, assuming he wrote one; and found the Web site was down. I, for one, hope he springs for more bandwidth because I've very much enjoyed reading his Leaf entries. Thanks to the person who started this thread for bringing it to my/our attention.

Edit: Never mind, it's back up again. Nice reading! Thanks again.

LOL!! ya that is my plan. my Son is only 5, but my long term plan (more likely dream) is to let him drive my 2011. by then, it should only have 30-40 miles of range left and will be PERFECT for a teen-aged boy to drive. just enough to get him around but hopefully not far enough to get him in trouble.

by then, he should be well aware of the fact that the faster he drives the less places he can go!!

 

[eclecticflower]

@ caracalover:
+1

 

[chris1howell]

...Update...

Got an email from my cousin, today he bought a Leaf.

His blogs during his time with our leaf were great and now he has one of his own. I am sure he will be very happy with his new car. Hopefully there will be another post soon. I am excited to learn the details of his decision.

 

[kubel]

I saw that coming.

 

[Boomer23]

You done good, Chris.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Awesome sauce!

 

[chris1howell]

You done good, Chris.

All I did was drop the car off...

 

[mkjayakumar]

yet another proof that, butts on seats works

 

[LEAFfan]

...Update...
Got an email from my cousin, today he bought a Leaf.
His blogs during his time with our leaf were great and now he has one of his own. I am sure he will be very happy with his new car. Hopefully there will be another post soon. I am excited to learn the details of his decision.

...Update...

Got an email from my cousin, today he bought a Leaf.

His blogs during his time with our leaf were great and now he has one of his own. I am sure he will be very happy with his new car. Hopefully there will be another post soon. I am excited to learn the details of his decision.

He really bought or did he lease? I wouldn't recommend buying any BEV because the technology changes so fast. The LEAF has major changes every two years. It will be a different and better battery chemistry in 2015.

 

[Volusiano]

He really bought or did he lease? I wouldn't recommend buying any BEV because the technology changes so fast. The LEAF has major changes every two years. It will be a different and better battery chemistry in 2015.

I wonder why you say the LEAF has major changes every two years? I don't see anything major between the 2011 and 2013 model years.

IF there'll be a better battery chemistry by 2015, that'd be every 4 years. And that's a big IF. Usually batter technology projected schedules that I've seen tend to be optimistic and prematurely announced.

I don't argue that leasing a LEAF seems to be a better option lately due to recent lower lease pricing and uncertainties about the LEAF's battery issue. And if there's frequent major changes. I just don't see any major changes after 2 years on the LEAF so far.