The unofficial Leaf dropout thread

[DaveinOlyWA]

i have to think that cooling off your garage would have other benefits besides the longevity of your battery pack.

then again, its a completely different area along with it associated completely different lifestyle. guessing AZers dont do wat us WA'ers do

 

[vrwl]

All of us signed a disclosure statement when you bought or leased your LEAF that stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity.....

Actually, that's not true. I DID NOT sign any kind of disclosure agreement when I purchased my car. I found a blank disclosure form in my glovebox a few days after I purchased the car. And since the blank form was in there, I can only assume that the original purchaser of the car (Hertz) didn't sign one either. So no, not everyone signed the form and it's incorrect to state that everyone did.

 

[surfingslovak]

All of us signed a disclosure statement when you bought or leased your LEAF that stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity.....

Actually, that's not true. I DID NOT sign any kind of disclosure agreement when I purchased my car. I found a blank disclosure form in my glovebox a few days after I purchased the car. And since the blank form was in there, I can only assume that the original purchaser of the car (Hertz) didn't sign one either. So no, not everyone signed the form and it's incorrect to state that everyone did.

While I was scanning my disclosure form the other day I noticed that I didn't sign it either. It only had the dealer signature on it. If I were to sell the vehicle tomorrow, the buyer won't sing a disclosure form either and if I don't tell them anything about the battery, they won't know any better. Vicki is right, I wouldn't generalize.

 

[SanDust]

I'm mildly surprised that so many people seem to be going for the Volt without (apparently) considering the FFE. Maybe they just find the range too restrictive, or don't want to have to worry about it regardless of what happens down the road?

Maybe after living with a BEV they're not as enamored of the concept as they thought they'd be? When my lease runs out I'm not planning on getting another BEV. There are hassles and it's a limited purpose vehicle.

 

[sub3marathonman]

So, to drive a ATM equipped vehicle in a Phoenix-like climate, you will have reduced BEV range and/or have to plug in to the grid, to run the ATM from peak-demand grid kWh, during summer days.

The life-cycle cost analysis is most dependent on anticipated battery costs per kWh and battery pack size.

If you want a BEV today with a 80 kWh battery, costing ~$500 per kWh, you'd be hard pressed to find any rational argument to omit ATM.

You'd want to slow the depreciation of your ~$40,000 investment, as much as possible.

If you expect to have to replace your BEVs 24 kWh battery pack in the future, the cost analysis will vary greatly, depending on whether you expect to spend $200 or $800 per kWh, at replacement time.

If I had to pay $5000 more towards an ATM system, I wouldn't have bought the LEAF. I don't live in the blazing Arizona heat, and while it is fairly warm here in Florida, I'm hoping that the rate of battery degradation will be slow enough to get me by, following as wishboneash said, babying the batteries. Just as, living here in Florida, I didn't need the extra expense of a battery warmer.

Long ago I researched a BMS for some PbA batteries to possibly use in the Prius I wanted to convert to a PHEV. The BMS would cost almost as much as the batteries themselves. At those prices, the calculations are very complicated, and of course, even though it was a great BMS, it doesn't have many buyers.

At first, the LEAF was going to cost $30k, then it was $35k, now if you're going to add another $5k it is over $40k. I think it is already over the limit as it is.

 

[ALLWATZ]

If one of the traction pack's taxing scenerios is driving in the 'low-battery range" - it stands to reason that you're necessarily performing a taxing scenerio, once you have a couple missing bars. Otherwise, you'd have to really limit your range.

Btw, I'd probably be PO'd if anyone got a new/rebuilt pack, simply because they frequently drove harder, charged to 100% more regularly in 100+ degree heat - etc. What reward is there for those of us who've babied their Leafs, other than better battery life. A reward for one group is a tacit slap in the face to the other group. And THAT's why Nissan will basically going to give early battery killers nothing.

+1
I would be PO'd as well. I remember about a year ago when our cars were pretty new, some Leaf owners bragging about how they would never baby their cars so as to not create an impression that EVs were slow or not mainstream enough. Well that was BS and I didn't care for that argument. Most intelligent EV drivers knew that stressing a battery is going to hurt it. Driving fast and depleting it daily will stress the battery.

I drove in the slow lane, avoided the freeway carpool lane and if others wanted to go faster, they could overtake me any time. I have been given the finger many times by drivers coming up behind me to overtake in the slow lane but I really don't care any more. This is not a popularity contest to prove to ICE owners that EVs are just like other cars. They are not. We use 1/4 to 1/12 the energy (hybrid/SUV) to get from point A to point B. That means some sacrifices in how we drive especially with an undersized battery pack. Many of us who bought the car instead of leasing it, decided to be more conservative in our driving habits trying to not stress the battery, not use the climate control much and tried to maximize range. End rant.

Now if the charging infrastructure were pervasive and ubiquitous, losing 20, 30% of capacity would be no big deal. I could charge and top off anywhere and except for longer trips of more than 50 miles or 60 miles, quick topping off to 80% would make this range issue a non-issue. The useful life of the BEV then surely goes up.

Well bravo for you. As a result of your habits, I assume your car has no capacity loss issues. Once again, for those of us who have had losses, have driven and charged the very same way as you and live in hot climates, the statements you and Hill make sound like the large SUV drivers who pull up to the pump and comaplain about the price of gas. Until you realize that you need to get behind this issue and support the idea of some compensation for hot weather situations (without the whole "it's obviously your fault" comments) the only silver lining for me is that your investment is sinking like the Titanic along with mine.

Now I have been checking the trade in of the car and the price of the car is dropping in AZ and maybe USA like a rock. From $22,000 to Carmax $19,000 and Autonation $16,600. And Midway Nissan AZ $18,800.

If the nay-sayers on this forum have their way, by this time next year, you may be able to get $7000-$10,000 for that car you babied. Verses a $30,000 loss, new batteries (or such) shouldn't sound too bad.

 

[downeykp]

+1 I totally agree. This is not an Arizona versus everyone else issue. We are all in the same boat. Our investments are all dwindling because Nissan sent a faulty product into the marketplace. So we ALL have to be behind this problem and not place blame on anyone for how they have used their vehicle. We all thought that we could just unplug and drive. Well it has not turned out that way.

If one of the traction pack's taxing scenerios
is driving in the 'low-battery range" - it stands to reason that you're necessarily performing a taxing scenerio, once you have a couple missing bars. Otherwise, you'd have to really limit your range.

Btw, I'd probably be PO'd if anyone got a new/rebuilt pack, simply because they frequently drove harder, charged to 100% more regularly in 100+ degree heat - etc. What reward is there for those of us who've babied their Leafs, other than better battery life. A reward for one group is a tacit slap in the face to the other group. And THAT's why Nissan will basically going to give early battery killers nothing.

+1
I would be PO'd as well. I remember about a year ago when our cars were pretty new, some Leaf owners bragging about how they would never baby their cars so as to not create an impression that EVs were slow or not mainstream enough. Well that was BS and I didn't care for that argument. Most intelligent EV drivers knew that stressing a battery is going to hurt it. Driving fast and depleting it daily will stress the battery.

I drove in the slow lane, avoided the freeway carpool lane and if others wanted to go faster, they could overtake me any time. I have been given the finger many times by drivers coming up behind me to overtake in the slow lane but I really don't care any more. This is not a popularity contest to prove to ICE owners that EVs are just like other cars. They are not. We use 1/4 to 1/12 the energy (hybrid/SUV) to get from point A to point B. That means some sacrifices in how we drive especially with an undersized battery pack. Many of us who bought the car instead of leasing it, decided to be more conservative in our driving habits trying to not stress the battery, not use the climate control much and tried to maximize range. End rant.

Now if the charging infrastructure were pervasive and ubiquitous, losing 20, 30% of capacity would be no big deal. I could charge and top off anywhere and except for longer trips of more than 50 miles or 60 miles, quick topping off to 80% would make this range issue a non-issue. The useful life of the BEV then surely goes up.

Well bravo for you. As a result of your habits, I assume your car has no capacity loss issues. Once again, for those of us who have had losses, have driven and charged the very same way as you and live in hot climates, the statements you and Hill make sound like the large SUV drivers who pull up to the pump and comaplain about the price of gas. Until you realize that you need to get behind this issue and support the idea of some compensation for hot weather situations (without the whole "it's obviously your fault" comments) the only silver lining for me is that your investment is sinking like the Titanic along with mine.

Now I have been checking the trade in of the car and the price of the car is dropping in AZ and maybe USA like a rock. From $22,000 to Carmax $19,000 and Autonation $16,600. And Midway Nissan AZ $18,800.

If the nay-sayers on this forum have their way, by this time next year, you may be able to get $7000-$10,000 for that car you babied. Verses a $30,000 loss, new batteries (or such) shouldn't sound too bad.

 

[ALLWATZ]

Thank you, Downeykp, and I still strongly urge anyone with battery issues to report it to Consumer Reports, http://custhelp.consumerreports.org/app/ask" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; on the heels of the news at, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[Herm]

I would be PO'd as well. I remember about a year ago when our cars were pretty new, some Leaf owners bragging about how they would never baby their cars so as to not create an impression that EVs were slow or not mainstream enough. Well that was BS and I didn't care for that argument. Most intelligent EV drivers knew that stressing a battery is going to hurt it. Driving fast and depleting it daily will stress the battery.

Those comments also irritated me... but notice how quiet they are now.

 

[edatoakrun]

All of us signed a disclosure statement when you bought or leased your LEAF that stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity.....

Actually, that's not true. I DID NOT sign any kind of disclosure agreement when I purchased my car. I found a blank disclosure form in my glovebox a few days after I purchased the car. And since the blank form was in there, I can only assume that the original purchaser of the car (Hertz) didn't sign one either. So no, not everyone signed the form and it's incorrect to state that everyone did.

While I was scanning my disclosure form the other day I noticed that I didn't sign it either. It only had the dealer signature on it. If I were to sell the vehicle tomorrow, the buyer won't sing a disclosure form either and if I don't tell them anything about the battery, they won't know any better. Vicki is right, I wouldn't generalize.

So, I should have qualified my original statement, l and now restate it as:

AFAIK, Nissan required all its dealers to have all new LEAF owners and lessees sign the same document,
which stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity....

Happy now?

So surfingslovak, if your dealer failed to get you to sign the disclosure, and you were otherwise ignorant of the information it contained, I suppose you might have a legitimate complaint against the dealer who failed to complete their contractual obligations to both you and Nissan.

And when you vrwl, bought a used leaf, then legal rights and responsibilities of yourself, the seller, and the manufacturer regarding disclosure are clearly very complicated. Who do you feel should be held responsible if Hertz did not disclose its own battery uses that "hasten"ed loss of battery capacity, before you bought it?

The real tough position, I would think, is for a used LEAF buyer whose previous owner actually voided Nissan's warranty by abusing the battery. If you buy a used ICEV/PHEV that has not been maintained properly, the manufacturer will usually consider the warranty void, and the used car buyer is out of luck. The problem is, AFAIK, there is no way for a private-party used BEV buyer to find out if the usage terms of the battery warranty have been complied with.

What kind of warranty assurance and disclosure do you get if buy a used or demo LEAF from a Nissan dealer?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

the FFE is off our list primarily because it lacks a QC port. We have a decent growing QC network in WA and the FFE would be too range limited given what we have become accustom to doing with the Leaf. The Volt is range unlimited, selling well, holding up well and holding it's value... not much of a surprise that it would be the alternative to the Leaf for now.

I'm mildly surprised that so many people seem to be going for the Volt without (apparently) considering the FFE. Maybe they just find the range too restrictive, or don't want to have to worry about it regardless of what happens down the road?

Maybe after living with a BEV they're not as enamored of the concept as they thought they'd be? When my lease runs out I'm not planning on getting another BEV. There are hassles and it's a limited purpose vehicle.

 

[JPWhite]

What kind of warranty assurance and disclosure do you get if buy a used or demo LEAF from a Nissan dealer?

I suppose that depends.

Certified Used Vehicles come with some form of assurance. Extended warranties are available on those vehicles (at a price).

Of course extended warranties do not apply to the battery pack, since it has a manufacturers warranty good for 8 yrs 100,000 miles. But if it is certified, the manufacturer warranty should be in force. Dealers won't certify and sell vehicles they know are junk, they simply auction those vehicles.

 

[vrwl]

I purchased my car from a Toyota dealership, not a Nissan dealership. So I got NO disclosures whatsoever. They didn't even have the car adequately charged for our trip home and we had a VERY tense ride back to the house from the dealership at 12:30am hoping we'd make it home with the available charge on the car. So basically, those folks were clueless. And all I was told about the warranty was that I still had two years left on the 3 year warranty for the car. Nothing about the battery capacity exclusions. And sadly, I would expect that anyone who purchases a used LEAF (within the warranty period of 3 years) from a non-Nissan source is going to get the same information we received, nothing.

One interesting thought though.... places like CarMax (and the Toyota dealership) offer extended warranties on other manufacturer's cars that they sell as used cars. So that begs the question.... is the battery pack covered if it is a non-Nissan brand extended warranty. We bought one, and I don't believe it specifically excludes the battery pack, because all the literature was for an ICE vehicle.

 

[Nubo]

So, I should have qualified my original statement, l and now restate it as:

AFAIK, Nissan required all its dealers to have all new LEAF owners and lessees sign the same document,
which stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity....

Happy now?

So surfingslovak, if your dealer failed to get you to sign the disclosure, and you were otherwise ignorant of the information it contained, I suppose you might have a legitimate complaint against the dealer who failed to complete their contractual obligations to both you and Nissan....

He has a legitimate complaint even if it was signed. The information is of little practical value. What is "very high ambient temperature"? How is the customer to measure this? Max temp? Duration? Degree-days? How are they to compute the effect? "...may hasten..."? How much? The statement tacitly implies it "may not" hasten at all!

There is nothing in that piece of the "disclosure" which is actionable, because it really doesn't say anything other than "We told you 'heat' 'might be' 'bad'. In fact it's one of several things that might be bad for the battery in some fashion".

What is the consumer supposed to do? Hire a team of engineers to quantify the actual effects so that they may make informed decisions on how to use the car?

I'll take the radical stance that Nissan should do that.

 

[JPWhite]

I'll take the radical stance that Nissan should do that.

Now that right there is just CRAZY talk!!!!

 

[WetEV]

It is much more expensive to manufacture, maintain, and repair vehicle AC systems than it is for structure space-cooling AC, per unit of heat moved. Insulating a home garage usually will be a relatively small expense, and any below-grade garage should keep your batteries close to optimum temperature without any AC at all.

And your home AC system probably has its heat exchanger to ambient air outside (mine has a much more efficient geothermal well-sourced heat exchanger) while the vehicle AC system heats the garage air, causing the ATM efficiency to decline further.

Yet the home garage AC system only handles about half of the time that the battery pack needs cooling. What about the rest of the day?

 

[RegGuheert]

Who do you feel should be held responsible if Hertz did not disclose its own battery uses that "hasten"ed loss of battery capacity, before you bought it?

Good question. But I think a better question to ask is the same one with the word "Hertz" replaced by the words "your Nissan dealer". And I mean this for new, used and demo cars. As I have mentioned before, some Nissan dealers start the damage process on LEAF batteries the moment they come onto the lot. I will guess the vast majority do it.

What kind of warranty assurance and disclosure do you get if buy a used or demo LEAF from a Nissan dealer?

We signed the full disclosure form when we purchase our demo LEAF. Unfortunately our dealer probably eliminated 5% or more of the capacity of our LEAF's battery through their ongoing program of abuse. There was no disclosure about the amount of capacity ALREADY lost at the time of purchase.

 

[surfingslovak]

So, I should have qualified my original statement, l and now restate it as:

AFAIK, Nissan required all its dealers to have all new LEAF owners and lessees sign the same document,
which stated that "exposure to very high ambient temperatures" was one of the factors that may "hasten" loss of battery capacity....

Happy now?

So surfingslovak, if your dealer failed to get you to sign the disclosure, and you were otherwise ignorant of the information it contained, I suppose you might have a legitimate complaint against the dealer who failed to complete their contractual obligations to both you and Nissan....

Yes, that's better, thank you. I'm not quite content however. The disclosure says "exposure to very high ambient temperatures for extended periods of time". There is an important semantic difference between your quote and the actual document. I'm sure that someone who as detail-oriented as you are can appreciate that, Ed.

Moreover, not only does the disclosure not quantify that statement further, it fails to assign any priority to the four factors it recounts. Given how quick charging and its effects on battery health was in everyone's mouth last year, you would think that this was the most important factor that will hasten the rate of capacity loss.

 

[edatoakrun]

It is much more expensive to manufacture, maintain, and repair vehicle AC systems than it is for structure space-cooling AC, per unit of heat moved. Insulating a home garage usually will be a relatively small expense, and any below-grade garage should keep your batteries close to optimum temperature without any AC at all.

And your home AC system probably has its heat exchanger to ambient air outside (mine has a much more efficient geothermal well-sourced heat exchanger) while the vehicle AC system heats the garage air, causing the ATM efficiency to decline further.

Yet the home garage AC system only handles about half of the time that the battery pack needs cooling. What about the rest of the day?

Got a below-grade parking lot near your workplace?

...any below-grade garage should keep your batteries close to optimum temperature without any AC at all.

If you have to park long-term in high daily ambient temperatures, you may also have problems with ATM BEVs/PHEVs. As I wrote:

...The larger problem with depending on vehicle ATM for battery cooling may be that, absent a grid connection, the ATM must run off of battery power, increasing cycling and reducing daily battery range. And the ATM will cease to function, once the battery is depleted beyond whatever battery capacity the ATM has set as the capacity minimum.

So, to drive a ATM equipped vehicle in a Phoenix-like climate, you will have reduced BEV range and/or have to plug in to the grid, to run the ATM from peak-demand grid kWh, during summer days...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9529&start=150" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[wishboneash]

Now if the charging infrastructure were pervasive and ubiquitous, losing 20, 30% of capacity would be no big deal. I could charge and top off anywhere and except for longer trips of more than 50 miles or 60 miles, quick topping off to 80% would make this range issue a non-issue. The useful life of the BEV then surely goes up.

<<Well bravo for you. As a result of your habits, I assume your car has no capacity loss issues. Once again, for those of us who have had losses, have driven and charged the very same way as you and live in hot climates, the statements you and Hill make sound like the large SUV drivers who pull up to the pump and comaplain about the price of gas. Until you realize that you need to get behind this issue and support the idea of some compensation for hot weather situations (without the whole "it's obviously your fault" comments) the only silver lining for me is that your investment is sinking like the Titanic along with mine. >>


I certainly didn't intend to lump the EV owners who drive in hot climates along with those who "abused" their batteries deliberately. I should have said something about that in my original msg. Sorry about that. FWIW, I live in a particularly hot micro-climate area of the SF Bay area and we have summer temps that reach 110-115F from time to time and while the coast and bay are at 70 to 80F, we regularly reach the 90s. However, we do get the cooling effect at night time, so I am usually down to 5 bars in the morning if I leave a side door to the garage open. I have seen perhaps 10% degradation in range even though I have not lost any bars yet. It is a matter of time.