The Battery Replacement Thread

[mxp]

Mirko, Thanks for sharing the BMS reset details.

Any advice how to prevent this from happening while at the dealership claiming a battery warranty?
I hate to be in a situation if the dealer says to me: "Oh, a BMS reset is a requirement in order to test the battery for a warranty claim...."

My Leaf was purchased in 7/1/2011 and the last day for me to claim (if I could get down to 4 bars lost) is 7/1/2016. (was it 5yr/60k warr period?)

Thanks for any advice....

It sounds to me like another Leaf that had its BMS reset by the dealer. No Leaf on here has gone from 1 bar lost to 3 bars lost in 6 months of light driving. The good news is that at that rate, you should lose that 4th bar soon. Nissan will never tell you if it was a 3 bar loser 6 months ago, but I wonder if by chance your VIN was one that has been tracked by our database?

Wrong!!! I lost 2 bars in 4 months and 2600 miles, 3 bars in 10 months and 5500 miles.

Lost #12 12/03/13, 17550 miles, 28 months owned. AHr=55.45, SOH=84%
Lost #11 06/15/14, 21493 miles, 34 months owned. AHr=50.70, SOH=77%
Lost #10 10/08/14, 23020 miles, 38 months owned. AHr=47.44, SOH=72%

I actually had my Capacity Loss Data reset (BMS reset) in my LEAF. I lost four capacity bars and took my car in to Autonation Nissan of Delray Beach. They ran the battery report that showed only 8 capacity bars remaining. Then the ran the Consult CLEAR BATTERY GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA command. Then the "Certified LEAF Technician" told me that my car was not eligible for the battery warranty replacement, and that the LEAF now had 14 capacity bars. YES... "Certified LEAF Technician" said 14 capacity bars!!! I asked them to show this to me. They went back to my LEAF and counted only 12. What a surprise. After almost three months of going back and forth with support at 1-877-no-gas-ev and a different Nissan dealer, I FINALLY had my battery replaced under warranty.

Anyway, the reason I started responding to this is that after the capacity loss data was deleted the LEAF lost capacity bars much like memoryisram and keydiver are describing. IMO, dealers should face the same penalties for deleting capacity loss data without having replaced the battery as they would for turning back an odometer.

memoryisram, as keydiver pointed out, you will eventually lose that 4th capacity bar.

 

[mwalsh]

My Leaf was purchased in 7/1/2011 and the last day for me to claim (if I could get down to 4 bars lost) is 7/1/2015.

I think you'll be relieved to be reminded that it'll actually be 7/1/2016.

 

[mxp]

Thanks! I just re-edit that. I re-read and it was indeed 5yr/60k period.

My Leaf was purchased in 7/1/2011 and the last day for me to claim (if I could get down to 4 bars lost) is 7/1/2015.

I think you'll be relieved to be reminded that it'll actually be 7/1/2016.

 

[keydiver]

Any advice how to prevent this from happening while at the dealership claiming a battery warranty?

I think the best thing a person can do is heavily document the battery capacity before you take it in. Get LeafSpy, take screenshots of all the screens, take pictures of the capacity bars on your dash, and call the EV Hotline first to create a record.
I would also warn the technical manager at the dealership NOT to do a BMS reset.

 

[mxp]

Thanks keydiver.

Any advice how to prevent this from happening while at the dealership claiming a battery warranty?

I think the best thing a person can do is heavily document the battery capacity before you take it in. Get LeafSpy, take screenshots of all the screens, take pictures of the capacity bars on your dash, and call the EV Hotline first to create a record.
I would also warn the technical manager at the dealership NOT to do a BMS reset.

 

[mirko]

The thing that helped me was the dealer that erased the Capacity Loss data actually ran a Battery Report first. I made sure to get a copy of that report. It showed only 8 capacity bars remaining, and that is what's needed to show that the battery is eligible for replacement. The thing was that even with that report Autonation Nissan of Delray Beach was saying that I was not eligible, and that the report just indicated normal battery wear!?

I had all of the LEAF DD and Dashboard pics too.

Mirko, Thanks for sharing the BMS reset details.

Any advice how to prevent this from happening while at the dealership claiming a battery warranty?
I hate to be in a situation if the dealer says to me: "Oh, a BMS reset is a requirement in order to test the battery for a warranty claim...."

My Leaf was purchased in 7/1/2011 and the last day for me to claim (if I could get down to 4 bars lost) is 7/1/2016. (was it 5yr/60k warr period?)

Thanks for any advice....

 

[mxp]

Thanks Mirko. Indeed having documentation/photos will be the key here...

The thing that helped me was the dealer that erased the Capacity Loss data actually ran a Battery Report first. I made sure to get a copy of that report. It showed only 8 capacity bars remaining, and that is what's needed to show that the battery is eligible for replacement. The thing was that even with that report Autonation Nissan of Delray Beach was saying that I was not eligible, and that the report just indicated normal battery wear!?

I had all of the LEAF DD and Dashboard pics too.

Mirko, Thanks for sharing the BMS reset details.

Any advice how to prevent this from happening while at the dealership claiming a battery warranty?
I hate to be in a situation if the dealer says to me: "Oh, a BMS reset is a requirement in order to test the battery for a warranty claim...."

My Leaf was purchased in 7/1/2011 and the last day for me to claim (if I could get down to 4 bars lost) is 7/1/2016. (was it 5yr/60k warr period?)

Thanks for any advice....

 

[mwalsh]

I just found out today that there is a IC type "security" card that comes with your new battery pack, used to program the new pack (BMS) ID into your car's VCM. Warranty repair or no, you should insist on receiving this card after you have a new pack installed. Especially if it's a pack you're purchasing on your own dime.

While it's no good to you as an owner under most circumstances, a scenario where I can see you wanting to have it is one where you have a new pack installed and your car gets totalled out shortly thereafter (but the pack remains undamaged). While the insurance company is happy to pay out, you can only find a replacement car with a couple capacity bars already gone (and maybe it's out of warranty too), so you purchase your old car back as salvage and have it's battery pack swapped out to the new aquisition. Without the IC card you're in a world of hurt for the swap, especially if the packs are not alike (eg: 2013 and up style pack into a 2011/12).

 

[zack]

Mine never did better than 80 miles and finally (when it was more like 65 miles), degraded to the 9 bar level and was replaced under warranty with no hassle at 37,500 miles, 38 months (May 2014). Civilized and efficient service. Brakes at low speed are the worst I've ever experienced (it's not just glitchy, grabby or any other description, it's unacceptable and dangerous, and an embarrassment compared to 99.5% of cars being built today). Though regarding another commenter here, lately I've been experimenting driving without the TCS.

Net of MSRP was $25k along with the tax and reg fees at the full MSRP. Given the upfront cost to purchase, relative to a similar ICE, say a Versa or Mazda2, (that would have been $15k), the massive depreciation (at 4 years 43k miles mine is rated at $11,000, at that rate in two more years it'll be worth $5k) and future looming cost ($6000?) of the next set of batteries, the car is quickly on it's way to zero value for resale before 7 years.

No doubt it could be kept going for years, but who would invest in it? Using a true cost to own metric, these are very expensive cars given the miles of transport they provide. Can't see how it's better for the planet to build cars that require replacing more than a third of the original weight just to get past 80,000 miles.

Purchased 4/2011

 

[abasile]

Can't see how it's better for the planet to build cars that require replacing more than a third of the original weight just to get past 80,000 miles.

I'm not saying it's a good thing for an EV battery pack to degrade quickly. But at 80K miles, you should still be coming out ahead in terms of environment impact. Even at 50mpg in a Prius, 80K miles would be 1600 gallons of gasoline. LEAF batteries aren't THAT intensive to manufacture. (If I had more time, I'd find stats to back this up, but this is consistent with all of the reading I've done.)

 

[TimLee]

... degraded to the 9 bar level and was replaced under warranty with no hassle at 37,500 miles, 38 months (May 2014). Civilized and efficient service.
...
Purchased 4/2011

You mean lost four capacity bars to the eight capacity bar level, Right :?:

Agree with you on the brake grabbiness.
One of the worst things about the car.

Also aree with you that Total Cost of Ownership on LEAF is getting to be abysmal.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Net of MSRP was $25k along with the tax and reg fees at the full MSRP. Given the upfront cost to purchase, relative to a similar ICE, say a Versa or Mazda2, (that would have been $15k), the massive depreciation (at 4 years 43k miles mine is rated at $11,000, at that rate in two more years it'll be worth $5k) and future looming cost ($6000?) of the next set of batteries, the car is quickly on it's way to zero value for resale before 7 years.

There are a couple of things I disagree with here.

First and foremost is the statement that a Versa or Mazda2 is an similar car. The Leaf is larger than either of these cars. The Leaf is a midsized car, the Versa/Mazda2 are compacts. The Leaf also drives significantly better (smoother, quicker off the line). Finally, it has more features.

Second is your evaluation of depreciation. The problem is not that it's an EV. The problem is that a 2015 Leaf can be had for several thousand dollars less than you paid for your 2011. And the 2015 has more features. This is going to continue to be an issue as long as EV technology keeps improving quickly.

Finally, the current cost of the batteries is about $6000 installed. That may or may not go down in the future, but it probably will. And even if it doesn't, and the car is useless to you with a degraded battery, it can still have value for someone. There are retirees who want a reliable car to get them to the grocery store and church. There are parents of teenagers who want their child's first car to be reliable (and for whom a short range is a bonus!). And there are people with very short commutes (mine is just 2 1/4 miles each way).

I just don't how a 2011 Leaf will have zero value in 2018, assuming the battery isn't just completely dead.

 

[Moof]

I just don't how a 2011 Leaf will have zero value in 2018, assuming the battery isn't just completely dead.

I think the point is that if a MY2018 S model Leaf is out for ~$30K with a 200 mile EPA range (big "if" I know) the value for a 40-50 mile range 6-7 bar 2011 will be pretty darn low. Even a totally dead car has value greater than zero thanks to the scrap metal, but I could easily see 2011's down to 50% capacity dropping to $5k or less in 2017. Most ICE cars go to the junkyard if the engine or the tranny dies, and I expect that EV's at <50% are more likely to get scrapped than to have their battery upgraded.

For folks who paid roughly $35k to be new adopters, $5k is pretty much zero. Most ICE used cars have a price half life of more like 6-8 years, while the 2011 Leaf has been more like 2-3 years.

I have yet to hear of anyone paying for a new battery even though there are a fair number well degraded ones out of warranty already.

The wild card will be the battery. If Nissan did something truly wild like offer the new double capacity battery to older Leaf's for a similar $6-10k price, the used market would find a floor. I seriously doubt that is going to occur however. Even then the ceiling on a used Leaf will be set by the after incentives price of a low end Leaf minus the new pack price, minus another 25-50% for being used, out of warranty, and not being the new shiny piece of must-have.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

For folks who paid roughly $35k to be new adopters, $5k is pretty much zero. Most ICE used cars have a price half life of more like 6-8 years, while the 2011 Leaf has been more like 2-3 years.

First, no one paid $35k for a 2011 Leaf, unless they bought, and didn't pay any taxes that year. By leasing and buying later, the $7500 tax credit is available to everyone.

Second, I'm not debating the fact that the early Leafs have a shorter "price half life" than an ICEV. That's part of the price of being an early adopter.

I too doubt that Nissan will offer a battery upgrade for old Leafs. But it seems like an opportunity for someone to do so. Who knows, Tesla could even offer an option (I can dream, can't I? ).

I still believe that there will be a reasonable floor on the price of used Leafs. The car still performs like new. It still has low maintenance and low fuel costs. The only difference from new is the range and cosmetic wear-and-tear. Of course, that could just be wishful thinking. But so could be a 200 mile Leaf in 2018!

 

[TomT]

deleted

 

[mwalsh]

Interesting. I just lost my fourth bar today, which is earlier than I expected... It will be interesting to see how Nissan handles this since I have less than two months left on my lease and I opted out of the settlement... I've already reported it to them and they "will get back to me..."

What were your numbers?

 

[Valdemar]

Interesting. I just lost my fourth bar today, which is earlier than I expected... It will be interesting to see how Nissan handles this since I have less than two months left on my lease and I opted out of the settlement... I've already reported it to them and they "will get back to me..."

 

[Deleted member 770]

Interesting. I just lost my fourth bar today, which is earlier than I expected... It will be interesting to see how Nissan handles this since I have less than two months left on my lease and I opted out of the settlement... I've already reported it to them and they "will get back to me..."

Wow, maybe there's hope for me yet. I didn't think anybody would lose a bar in this mild weather.

Can you post what your current AHr and GID values are at a 100% charge?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Interesting. I just lost my fourth bar today, which is earlier than I expected... It will be interesting to see how Nissan handles this since I have less than two months left on my lease and I opted out of the settlement... I've already reported it to them and they "will get back to me..."

Funny I wondered what would happen had we lost the fourth bar within a few weeks of the lease ending... will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Valdemar]

Interesting. I just lost my fourth bar today, which is earlier than I expected... It will be interesting to see how Nissan handles this since I have less than two months left on my lease and I opted out of the settlement... I've already reported it to them and they "will get back to me..."

Funny I wondered what would happen had we lost the fourth bar within a few weeks of the lease ending... will be interesting to see what happens.

There may be a B0133 at play here too.