Surprise: No Level-2 High charging for LEAF? 15A maximum!

[Coffee_Slurry]

It seems that the on-board charger is limited to 3.3kW, which means only the "Low" Level 2 charge rate is supported.
This was a surprise to me, since Nissan has been quoting:

Level One Charging uses 110V - 15 A, The Charge Power is 1.4kW and would take about 18 hours to charge.
Level 2 (low) Charging uses 220 V -15A, The Charge Power is 3.3kW and will charge in about 8 hours
Level 2 (high) Charging uses 220 V - 30A, The Charge Power is 6.6kW and will charge in about 4 hours
Level 3 Charging uses 480V - 167A, The Charge Power is 70 - 50 kW and will charge in 20 -50 minutes.

Of these, only Level 2 (low) is supported. It won't do any good to run a 40A or 30A circuit to your Blink charger at all!

I asked Nissan this directly, and their response confirms it:

"Unfortunately the 2011 Nissan LEAF will not be able to charge at the "level 2 high" setting. The LEAF's onboard charger will be able to pull a maximum of 3.3kw."

Is this already known, or surprising to others as well?

 

[JasonT]

Is this already known, or surprising to others as well?

I can't speak for the collective, but there are definitely people here that are aware of this. I'm sure I'm going to miss some, but this has been one of a few 'surprises' - things that at one point we thought/hoped were coming with the car but then found out it wasn't.

• No 6.6kW charging, 3.3kW only
• Level 3/DC/Quick charging not only doesn't come on all cars but is an additional charge available only on the SL model
• Heated seats/steering wheel not available

 

[smkettner]

Anyone reading this board should be well aware of the 3.3Kw limit.
Gripes me that Nissan's chosen AV is selling the EVSE for a 6.6Kw charger with no lower cost option.

 

[mwalsh]

No surprise here.

 

[garygid]

Paying a few dollars extra to be prepared for a future 4-hour charging capability seems reasonable to me.

Paying $1000 or more to upgrade a service panel that will take a 240v 20-amp breaker, but would not allow a 40-amp breaker, ... is probably not worth the extra $$ at this point ... except perhaps for the 50% tax credit.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The charger spec has been know and posted officially for some time, there is no reason 3.3kw would be more than 3.3kw. This is a bit of a redundant thread and almost everyone is aware of this that cares.

 

[cdub]

Heated seats/steering wheel not available

Huh? That's all they talk about in those test drive videos. They're not avail?

EDIT - and by "they" I mean the Nissan guy

 

[mitch672]

Heated seats/steering wheel not available

Huh? That's all they talk about in those test drive videos. They're not avail?

EDIT - and by "they" I mean the Nissan guy

probably comming in the "cold weather" version being released the end of 2011,
which is also going to have a battery heater as well, most likely.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I'm still soaking up the information from this forum.

I suppose the reason I'm surprised is that the EV Project estimator was saying they need to add a 30A or 40A breaker to my panel, and how there's little room.
It seems like adding a 15A or 20A load is simpler, especially since there's already one for the Solar Panels that's backfeed only. I'd rather sort out a subpanel for the *next* electric car if the LEAF isn't going to tap more than 15A.

It's also a bit misleading that Nissan sends out the Level info above when anyone asks "how long does it take to charge". If Level2 High is not an option (ever), then that might be nice to point out.

But yeah, 3.3kW is what it is, and I should have known.

 

[walterbays]

I'm still soaking up the information from this forum.

I suppose the reason I'm surprised is that the EV Project estimator was saying they need to add a 30A or 40A breaker to my panel, and how there's little room.
It seems like adding a 15A or 20A load is simpler, especially since there's already one for the Solar Panels that's backfeed only. I'd rather sort out a subpanel for the *next* electric car if the LEAF isn't going to tap more than 15A.

It's also a bit misleading that Nissan sends out the Level info above when anyone asks "how long does it take to charge". If Level2 High is not an option (ever), then that might be nice to point out.

But yeah, 3.3kW is what it is, and I should have known.

Just guessing... They probably want to get a charger in your garage that will be able to charge the 2012 Leaf with 6.6 kW, and the 2013 Leaf with 6.6 kW and a 50% higher capacity battery, etc. Think how annoyed people would be if they tore up their garages once for this car and then were told that they'd have to replace their charger to charge the next car at maximum rate, or rewire their garage again.

So do you want to give up your place in line to me so I can get your 2011 Leaf sooner, and you can wait for 2012 or 2013? No? Well it was worth a try...

 

[garygid]

If you actually add any wires, it would be wise (and not cost much more) to make them 40-amp "capable", even if they are only used on a 20-amp circuit right now.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm still soaking up the information from this forum.

I suppose the reason I'm surprised is that the EV Project estimator was saying they need to add a 30A or 40A breaker to my panel, and how there's little room.
It seems like adding a 15A or 20A load is simpler, especially since there's already one for the Solar Panels that's backfeed only. I'd rather sort out a subpanel for the *next* electric car if the LEAF isn't going to tap more than 15A.

It's also a bit misleading that Nissan sends out the Level info above when anyone asks "how long does it take to charge". If Level2 High is not an option (ever), then that might be nice to point out.

But yeah, 3.3kW is what it is, and I should have known.

Just guessing... They probably want to get a charger in your garage that will be able to charge the 2012 Leaf with 6.6 kW, and the 2013 Leaf with 6.6 kW and a 50% higher capacity battery, etc. Think how annoyed people would be if they tore up their garages once for this car and then were told that they'd have to replace their charger to charge the next car at maximum rate, or rewire their garage again.

So do you want to give up your place in line to me so I can get your 2011 Leaf sooner, and you can wait for 2012 or 2013? No? Well it was worth a try...

There is no charger outside the car it's an EVSE and it supports 6.6kw charging.

 

[planet4ever]

Nissan hasn't committed to ever providing a 6.6kW charger in the LEAF, but I think most people on this board believe that it will come in "Gen 2" whenever and whatever that is. I also think that most 240v EVSEs for home use will be designed to support 6.6kW, though they may have a switch or jumper or programmable setting for a lower amperage circuit. Note that the EVSE must tell the vehicle the maximum amperage it can pull, and if it is not on a 40A circuit that will work out to less than 6.6kW. It is possible that the AeroVironment EVSE does not have such a setting option, so that it cannot legally be connected to anything less than a 40A circuit, even though the present LEAF would never pull enough current to be a problem.

Incidentally, I am a rather lonely voice in saying I don't believe Nissan has decided whether it will ever provide a 6.6kW charger in the car. They are aware of this board, and they know our feelings, but I doubt if they are giving them much credence for now, because we don't actually have the car yet with its 3.3kW charger. I imagine voices in the company saying, "Just wait. Once they've used the 3.3kW charger for a while they'll find out it is all they need." I'd almost be willing to bet we will be getting a Research Panel Survey on the subject next spring.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Nissan hasn't committed to ever providing a 6.6kW charger in the LEAF, but I think most people on this board believe that it will come in "Gen 2" whenever and whatever that is. I also think that most 240v EVSEs for home use will be designed to support 6.6kW, though they may have a switch or jumper or programmable setting for a lower amperage circuit. Note that the EVSE must tell the vehicle the maximum amperage it can pull, and if it is not on a 40A circuit that will work out to less than 6.6kW. It is possible that the AeroVironment EVSE does not have such a setting option, so that it cannot legally be connected to anything less than a 40A circuit, even though the present LEAF would never pull enough current to be a problem.

Incidentally, I am a rather lonely voice in saying I don't believe Nissan has decided whether it will ever provide a 6.6kW charger in the car. They are aware of this board, and they know our feelings, but I doubt if they are giving them much credence for now, because we don't actually have the car yet with its 3.3kW charger. I imagine voices in the company saying, "Just wait. Once they've used the 3.3kW charger for a while they'll find out it is all they need." I'd almost be willing to bet we will be getting a Research Panel Survey on the subject next spring.

There is no need for any jumpers because the charger is the unit that varies draw base on the EVSE.

This board is not a driving force for Nissan, believe it or not they get feedback form powerful EV advocacy groups regarding like Plug in America regarding this issue and the entire AV EVSE pricing and procedures. For those that do not know these guys see these cars far before the press even views them. If you want to truly support EVs then join Plug in America and make a donation of some size. There are many people in the EV world that find the 3.3kw charger as a bit silly on the Leaf and it won't be changed anytime soon per some feedback I heard. Some will be more than fine with this charger but setting aside even the usefulness debate MFGs will soon see advertising pinning L2 charging speeds against each other, "chargers 2X faster than a Leaf". I think its's laughable relative to the pack size and so do many seasoned EV drivers but I'm sure once people start driving they will find out what they works for them.

 

[planet4ever]

There is no need for any jumpers because the charger is the unit that varies draw base on the EVSE.

Can you explain that statement, please? Yes the charger varies its draw based on what the EVSE tells it. How does the EVSE know the breaker rating or wire size of the circuit it is connected to?

 

[LEAFer]

There is no need for any jumpers because the charger is the unit that varies draw base on the EVSE.

Can you explain that statement, please? Yes the charger varies its draw based on what the EVSE tells it. How does the EVSE know the breaker rating or wire size of the circuit it is connected to?

When the EVSE is (professionally) installed its pilot signal is matched to the wiring it is installed to.

This could mean several things ... either the EVSE's maximum capability (current draw) is limited via jumpers (or other means of configuring it) to 80% (or less, but not more) of the rating of the breaker and wiring (gauge) that feeds it; or the (non-programmable) EVSE's maximum capability is installed to a breaker and wiring gauge rated to at least (or more than) 125% of the EVSE's capability.

(Note that 80% = 4/5; and 125% = 5/4.)

The result is that the EVSE outputs a pilot signal to the car's charger of how much amperage the car may draw (but never more) based on the safety factors allowed by the NEC for the installed EVSE and the premises.

(Note: the "at least (or more than)" and "(or less, but not more)" are due to round-off or convenience factors of commonly available breaker and wire ratings. So, for example, if the EVSE is rated for 30A, 125%*30A = 37.5A, would be rounded up to a 40A breaker.)

 

[garygid]

Some EVSEs will be designed to be connected to only one size breaker/circuit.

It might tell the car "32 amps" (or 30) and must be installed on (at least) a 40-amp breaker.

Other EVSEs will be designed to that they can be installed on more than one size
breaker, like 20, 30, and 40. These will have a "setting".

These EVSEs will have a setting, jumper, or some such to match them to the
breaker that they are connected to, telling the car (at most) 16, 24, or 32 amps.

 

[pgrovetom]

Has anyone seen Nissan documents that discuss the 3.3KW restriction on the Leaf?

All of the Nissan documents have shown both the 3.3KW and 6.6KW and 4 and 8 hours respectively. Seems a bit like a bait and switch given it's in their presentations plus there was all the pressure to use the AV which was specified at 30A 240V and 6.6KW. Of course the Leaf can choose to draw only 15A off the 240V irrespective of what the pilot indicates is available.

If one buys the L3 DC option and the onboard charger can handle it's 50KW, why is level 2 so limited? Anybody know or seen any documents on this?

Has anyone seen a spec for the Leaf L3 DC interface?

It is still possible to build your own EVSE. Level 2 or Level 3.

 

[garygid]

Yes, it is possible to build your own L2 EVSE, not even too difficult if you have a good design and the right skills.

Currently, there seems to be no "public" designs available, so one would need to find sufficient EE skills to create a good, safe design (non-trivial job).

But, it would still be illegal to use it for residential charging, since the NEC says it must be "listed". Presumably that means tested by a lab like UL.

The design of a L3 "charger" system is much more difficult, since a LOT of power is involved. It is not even clear to me if the complete "communication" protocol is in the public domain.

My suggestion, unless you have considerable skills in the "power supply" area: do not even consider trying a L3 BIY project.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

The Blink charger installed by Ecotality is programmable:
http://www.blinknetwork.com/media/kit/Blink%20L2%20Wall%20Mount%20Charger.pdf

Input Current: 30A max , 12A, 16A, 24A available
Breaker size: 40A with settings for 15A/20A/30A

I will certainly get the heavier wiring sorted out to have 30A to the Blink charger, but I'm still disappointed in the 3.3kW L2 charge limit. I'd rather have faster charge than longer range.

I do wonder if an L3 DC charger would be possible with direct solar panel (PV) connection. It's pretty easy to get 250v DC or more from a series of panels. Probably not worth the hassle and variability considering you can convert to AC at 95%+ efficiency and back down to DC at about the same.

I would trade range (capacity) for faster charge time, as I tend to make more short/medium trips than long trips.