Some people will never get it...

[kikngas]

So I've been trying to think of how to leave the conversation with someone that "will never get it" so that they do assimilate some useful information that nudges them one small step closer to understanding. They reject "research", because "you can make numbers say anything that suites your purpose". They discount "estimates", even for things for which no better data exists. They don't see how a study done in another country or state could ever have any relevance in their own life. And they firmly believe their politicians that voted for the tax credits are selling out to someone and giving away money that they personally paid in taxes. Here is what I've come up with so far...

You're right (always a good way to start a rebuttal). Some of this stuff remains to be seen. And the car is certainly not for everyone in it's current state of development, in fact what car *IS* for everyone? There are reasons we have 100 choices of car models to buy. The public charging infrastructure simply is not there in most areas to support general use. It is early days with some elements of the technology, and, because some people are buying now and trying it out, in the future there will be better data on predicting battery life and maintenance costs. But it's only a small number of cars. We're exploring the idea for you. And over the coming 10 years I have no doubt the production of my electricity will get cleaner and cleaner, and that advances will be made in battery tech. and charging infrastructure deployment. So look at it this way, *IF* 10 years from now, gasoline is $10/gal. and *IF* this electric stuff does work out, you will have a solid, tested, well-understood alternative available to you. And if it does not work out, then you will know for certain that some other course is needed because this one has been shown to not be viable. That's why *OUR* tax dollars are being *INVESTED* in this technology. The same way they were invested in nuclear, ethanol, fusion reactors, solar, and numerous other industries. Meanwhile, it is good for the economy to build new auto and battery assembly plants, and charging stations, and to be buying a tiny amount less oil from overseas.

Does that help to show our interests are not counter to theirs? And reduce their tendency to cling to existing ideas? I'm not asking *YOU* to buy a car like this. But there is no need to criticize *ME* for doing so. There are very tangible reasons that your elected officials thought it was worth investing in. You elected them to make exactly this sort of strategic decision on your behalf. And it is far too soon to try and define if the decision was a good one.

 

[Nubo]

Resvd: 4/20/10 23:43 CDT
Ordered: 11/19/10
Ordered Date (Entry into Fab): 02/05/11
Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011 (within 2 days of DB)
Blue Ocean, eTec

why do we care??

When people report issues or are asking for advice, that type of information is helpful for people responding and trying to help. Early on, reservation dates were important for people trying to figure out when they might get the car delivered.

 

[RegGuheert]

Speaking of which, does anyone know why they chose to use an AC motor?

It is primarily because they are more reliable. It is also likely more powerful, smoother and more efficient.

BTW, once the synchronous motor in the LEAF is combined with its electronic commutator, it is commonly known as a "Brushless DC Motor".

In any case, you *must* produce a rotating magnetic field in order to produce a non-zero torque when the motor is turning. In a DC motor, this field is produced by switching between different windings in the rotor using brushes and a segmented slip ring (known as a commutator). In a brushless DC motor, permanent magnets are used on the rotor and the rotating magnetic field is produced on the stator using an electronic commutator.

While that may sound complex and inefficient, in a DC-motor-based application you find that you need an advanced electronic controller anyway to adjust the voltage of the DC in order to control the torque of the motor. And to adjust a DC voltage efficiently from one value to another requires a conversion to AC and then back to DC. The result is that overall, the cost to make the brushless DC drivetrain is not that different from an equivalent one with a DC motor, but the reliability is.

It seems odd to take DC solar (on my wish list), invert to AC to match the plugs, charge the car with AC through an inverter to a DC battery and then, I presume, the DC battery must be inverted again to drive an AC motor.

I agree that it does seem odd. The first conversion to AC is largely due to the fact that the AC power grid which Nikola Tesla invented proved to have major benefits over the DC power grid which Thomas Edison was developing.

But many LEAFs DO have a DC charging port, and some have asked why not charge through that port with solar: Just a question for you guys with panels and an EV.... Simply put, the first conversion of the PV solar power from DC to AC maximizes the amount of solar energy harvested by the PV panel to be maximized by treating the grid as an "infinite-sized" battery. That savings (in how much PV panel size must be manufactured and bought) is much greater than the small saving in efficiency which would occur when the car was actually charging.

Does an AC motor deliver more power in the footprint?

Yes.

or longer life?

Yes.

Why wouldn't you use a DC motor and skip the energy loss of another power conversion?

The commutator in the DC motor represents a type of conversion from DC to AC. In actuality, efficiency of the drivetrain in the LEAF is extremely high, at least at low-to-moderate speeds.

The only benefit of a DC motor over the brushless DC motor in the LEAF would likely be the elimination of the rare-earth magnets, which are costly and in limited supply largely controlled by China. Tesla Motors avoids this problem by using another invention of Nikola Tesla: the induction motor. Those are also very reliable and they have a much broader power curve, but peak efficiency is lower.

 

[RegGuheert]

You're right (always a good way to start a rebuttal). Some of this stuff remains to be seen. And the car is certainly not for everyone in it's current state of development, in fact what car *IS* for everyone? There are reasons we have 100 choices of car models to buy. The public charging infrastructure simply is not there in most areas to support general use. It is early days with some elements of the technology, and, because some people are buying now and trying it out, in the future there will be better data on predicting battery life and maintenance costs. But it's only a small number of cars. We're exploring the idea for you. And over the coming 10 years I have no doubt the production of my electricity will get cleaner and cleaner, and that advances will be made in battery tech. and charging infrastructure deployment. So look at it this way, *IF* 10 years from now, gasoline is $10/gal. and *IF* this electric stuff does work out, you will have a solid, tested, well-understood alternative available to you. And if it does not work out, then you will know for certain that some other course is needed because this one has been shown to not be viable. That's why *OUR* tax dollars are being *INVESTED* in this technology. The same way they were invested in nuclear, ethanol, fusion reactors, solar, and numerous other industries. Meanwhile, it is good for the economy to build new auto and battery assembly plants, and charging stations, and to be buying a tiny amount less oil from overseas.

With the exception of not trying to justify subsidies, which I largely do not favor, that is essentially what I tell people. Here is a brief synopsis:

1) Current EVs are the best choice for some applications today.
2) Even though the current EVs do not meet your needs, this will not always be true. (Most people around here have long commutes.)
3) In the future, improvements in battery technology will improve both range and durability of the EVs. This work is being done today and will continue for the foreseeable future. I often employ the analogy of the Boeing 737 useable range which has tripled in the 50 years of its existence.
4) In the future, fossil fuels are likely to become even more expensive than they are today.
5) In the future, even though grid electricity costs are going up, PV solar generation costs are going down, so you will have the option to greatly reduce your transportation fuel costs if you purchase an EV. (For those who own a home and plan to stay put for a while.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A VOLT has NO range limit.

period.

how many Volt owners do YOU know that feel that way?

I am familiar with 3 and all of them feel that they have a range limit...

 

[hill]

I assume you make more than minimum wage, so wasting 20 minutes of your time waiting at Costco to save a few cents/gallon hardly seems like a good exchange.

On those infrequent occasions when I need to fill a gas tank when returning from a long trip, I use our "neighborhood" gas station and never wait. I don't mind paying an extra $0.20/gallon just to be in a nicer environment that's as convenient as can be. I'm pretty sure I spend more time plugging/unplugging the LEAF and messing with charging timers than if I just filled the Prius with gas a couple of times per month instead. It's well worth charging the LEAF, and I don't like smelling gasoline fumes, but I can sort of understand the mass-market objections to plugging in.

I guess everyone's setup is different. For our LEAF, the EVSE is right next to the garage door. I park, get out of the car, walk towards the garage door, grab the charging plug off its hook, turn and click it in. There's no walking and it's a one-hand job since you can flip the cover with the end of the j-plug. No more than 5 seconds of my time, and in the privacy and comfort of my own garage. No inclement weather, no waiting, no fumes, no traffic noises whizzing past. No advertisements blaring at me (the captive audience). No recalcitrant pumps or card-readers. No displays that are unreadable from vandalism or boneheaded employees scrubbing them with steel wool. No broken receipt printers, no entering of zip codes, no "card declined see attendant". No $60 admission to this pageant. . . . . . . . . . . snip . . . . . .

With enough (amortized) PV to run the car AND the house ... it's not just the $60 admission you save avoiding the weekly gas pump. $60 x 50 weeks = $3,000. You then have to earn an additional $1,000 for state/fed/ss taxes. How much time does one count having to waste earning $$$ just so you can waste time pouring gasoline? even so - to each his/her own.
.

 

[johnrhansen]

A VOLT has NO range limit.

period.

how many Volt owners do YOU know that feel that way?

I am familiar with 3 and all of them feel that they have a range limit...

what happens in a volt if you drive too far? Is it just that your butt gets sore?