Six miles, Low Battery Warning to Turtle (Sans Effect)

[N1ghtrider]

Just got my Leaf on 12/15. I live in flat south Florida. I put 93 miles on the first charge from the dealership. I wanted to make sure that I could run the gauge down to 5 miles without stalling out, so when I had 10 miles left and was 5 miles from home, I headed to my house. That (10 miles left) is when the low battery warnings started. I never saw "very low battery." The last couple of miles I just drove around the blocks in my neighborhood so I could borrow a 110 charge or push the car home if necessary.

Roy Wasson

 

[derkraut]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. And if for some bizarre reason I felt I needed to plan such a trip, I'd at least plan for contingencies such as possible places I might charge in an emergency.

I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. I have been in so many arguments with people about electric cars (Remember I live in Texas, the idea isn't all that accepted here) and one of the many negative things I always hear from the haters is "I bet I'll see these Leafs all over the side of the roads, out of power, assuming anyone even buys them. what a bunch of morons." So by letting myself run out of power on the side of the highway I would be giving them the very ammunition they are looking for.

Agree with the above completely.

As a Prius owner (adric22 has/had one too), I've seen and heard so much anti-hybrid hate and misinformation, I'd hate to give those haters and EV haters more ammunition. Some of the anti-hybrid hate/FUD carries over to BEVs.

I agree 100% with the above. What is to be gained by running the battery down to "turtle"? :?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I wonder if Tony is starting to see the effect of all the deep discharges he's done. He's sort of done beta testing for everyone, torturing the battery so the rest don't have to.

While certainly possible, I really hope that this is not the case. Tony had his Leaf for less than a year, and although he might be stressing the pack more than the average owner, let's hope that it's robust enough to sail through the first 2-3 years of ownership.

I completed my weekend trip, 323.9 miles over 10.6 hours during 3 days. 77kWh total, plus what I pump in tonight, say 24.8kWh, total from the wall, 101.8kWh. 85% efficiency into the battery is 86.53kWh. I didn't start with a completely full battery, so it's not possible to get an accurate miles/kWh average, but it's about 4 miles/kWh. Here's the charge schedule:

Fri, Dec 16 - 7:19pm - 8:56pm 	5.871  	Forest Ave, Laguna Beach (VLB)
Fri, Dec 16 - 9:18pm - 10:40pm 	4.934     Newport Center Dr, Newport Beach
Sat, Dec 17 - 00:24am - 8:53am  24.824     Copley Dr, Diamond Bar (Turtle)
Sat, Dec 17 -  1:00pm - 4:30pm    3.231     Chino, California (trickle; kWh estimated)
Sat, Dec 17 - 7:27pm - 8:15am 	22.763 	Copley Dr, Diamond Bar (2 miles into VLB)
Sun, Dec 18 - 10:17am - 11:55am  6.068 	Bear St, Costa Mesa
Sun, Dec 18 - 1:07pm - 3:42pm 	9.309 	Newport Center Dr, Newport Beach 
Sun, Dec 18 - 6:00pm-ish - now   24.824     My house (Turtle)

I got home and had a repeat of the previous turtle performance on Friday night. About 4.7 miles in LBW, and about 2 in VLB to Turtle. Of course, I compensated for it this time, and successfully drove in the garage. I was able to turn the car off, and then on, and it was no longer in Turtle (again).

So, it appears there may be an issue that is not resolved. I sincerely hope it's just balancing, however, I am cognizant that 14 full cycles of the battery may have already impacted it. Sad, if true.

I went to the Tesla store in Newport, and they had the Model S in the showroom. I didn't fit so well in the back seat, and it seems like it should have a knob for radio volume at least. Other than those two quick observations, I think they'll sell plenty.

 

[cwerdna]

What is to be gained by running the battery down to "turtle"? :?

Builds character? :?

Actually, the more I think about it, if more people (not just EV haters) see BEVs "broken down"/out of juice/needing a tow by the side of the road, that'll hurt their adoption rate. More people who know nothing about them will think negatively about them, have doubts and possibly even spread the word.

There are numerous threads on Priuschat all the time about the anti-hybrid FUD. Here's a carryover from http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-main-forum/96286-sometimes-i-feel-ashamed-my-prius.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that was directed at the Prius:

When I was entering the building at work one morning a girl said "Oh, those battery-cars are so unreliable. I would hate to be stuck somewhere when the battery died."

:roll:

 

[TonyWilliams]

To be fair - let's just say that any distance beyond VLBW is at best a gamble - one that you may win 9/10 times, but still a gamble that most will want to avoid. And using your experience, let's just shave 6 miles off the expected range - that's only 30 minutes of charging, not hours.

Actually, after LBW has it's own issues, but for pragmatic, simplistic planning, obviously, we can't count on that 100%. I'm actually surprised that it was, and has been for me, as stable and predictable past the battery voltage "knee" at VLB. But, again, it appears the problems actually start before that.

PS - still curious as to what your mi / kWh was over the last 32 miles of your trip... and where exactly on 57 did you hit turtle? There aren't that many spots in the middle of nowhere on it...

I didn't reset the meter before that leg of the trip, so I don't know. Turtle was right at the county line between OC and LA county. Hills, cows, and oil wells. When I drove it today in the day time, I realized that it's a bit of a hill... about 650 feet. So, I started thinking the hill had a lot to do with it. But, as I mentioned in my previous post, the car did exactly the same effect tonight; My new name for it, "Sans Effect".

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just got my Leaf on 12/15. I live in flat south Florida. I put 93 miles on the first charge from the dealership.

That's quite a first day!! Congrats on your new car; we hope to hear your great travel stories in the future!

Tony

 

[Herm]

Just got my Leaf on 12/15. I live in flat south Florida. I put 93 miles on the first charge from the dealership.
Roy Wasson

Congratulations Roy.. you may notice a range increase after about 3 full charge/discharge cycles. How fast were you driving and where?

 

[N1ghtrider]

My 93 miles was over 3 days, mostly commuting from Coral Gables to my office in downtown Miami, but with about 10 miles on I-95 making sure I could handle highway speeds. I ran the AC about half the time, and was in ECO mode 95% of the time. I have 6 years experience maximizing mileage in a Civic Hybrid.

 

[abasile]

Turtle was right at the county line between OC and LA county. Hills, cows, and oil wells. When I drove it today in the day time, I realized that it's a bit of a hill... about 650 feet. So, I started thinking the hill had a lot to do with it. But, as I mentioned in my previous post, the car did exactly the same effect tonight; My new name for it, "Sans Effect".

That uphill between Brea, CA and Diamond Bar, CA on the 57 freeway does involve a few hundred feet of elevation gain, quite significant especially if one is traveling at 60 mph. Nonetheless, it does sound as if something is out of balance in Tony's pack.

I can certainly understand Tony's desire to own a Tesla, with its substantially greater range. Stretching the range of the LEAF to the absolute maximum is not going to be optimal for the battery pack in the long run. Based on a voltage vs. SOC plot that somebody posted months ago (I can't remember where), the pack voltage starts to drop off more significantly shortly after the "low battery" warning. This suggests that is not ideal to make a regular habit of discharging very far below "low battery", especially if one desires to use this car for a long time as I do. Personally, I consider myself successful in planning my charging and driving if I can avoid low battery warnings. Dropping a bit lower than one full bar of charge seems perfectly fine, though.

Incidentally, we just charged at the Air Quality Management District office in Diamond Bar yesterday. (Our family was impressed at the number of plug-in hybrids that can be seen there, under a sizable solar array.) We left our mountain home with seven bars of charge, and a cold battery (four bars), and arrived in Diamond Bar, where we spent the day, with two bars. We charged to 100% before departing (brought the battery temp up to five bars), picked up 20 min. of L2 at the Kohl's in Ontario, and less than an hour of additional charging at Fontana Nissan, then completed the 60 mile drive home, with 5300' of net elevation gain. We pulled into the driveway with barely two bars of charge indicated, which dropped to one bar after power cycling the car. Drove 125 miles total with a 4.6 mile/kWh average. Everything worked out exactly as planned.

Actually, truth be told, I ended the drive with a bit more charge than needed (and drove faster up the mountain than usual) because of the extra time I spent chatting with the owner of Fontana Nissan while the car was plugged in. I was sharing my opinion that dealers installing DC Fast Chargers would increase the size of the market for LEAFs. (Then Tony might not need a Tesla.)

 

[Herm]

My 93 miles was over 3 days, mostly commuting from Coral Gables to my office in downtown Miami, but with about 10 miles on I-95 making sure I could handle highway speeds. I ran the AC about half the time, and was in ECO mode 95% of the time. I have 6 years experience maximizing mileage in a Civic Hybrid.

How did you like the remaining range estimator?.. the GOM.. my theory is that it will work well in flat Florida.

GOM stands for Guess-O-Meter.

 

[Herm]

This suggests that is not ideal to make a regular habit of discharging very far below "low battery", especially if one desires to use this car for a long time as I do. Personally, I consider myself successful in planning my charging and driving if I can avoid low battery warnings.

It could be potentially dangerous if the BMS glitches at that point and allows a cell to be reverse charged below 0V.. but I'm sure the warranty would cover the damage... until Nissan pulls Tony's battery report and sees his history :shock:

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I completed my weekend trip, 323.9 miles over 10.6 hours during 3 days. ...snip... I got home and had a repeat of the previous turtle performance on Friday night. About 4.7 miles in LBW, and about 2 in VLB to Turtle. Of course, I compensated for it this time, and successfully drove in the garage. I was able to turn the car off, and then on, and it was no longer in Turtle (again).

Glad to read of another successful, if eventful, trip and return home. Speaking for myself, I may not plan to run to the bottom of the charge, but I do want to know what happens there, and I am thankful you are willing to judiciously press the limits so that we may all learn.

Another data point for your knowledgebase: Based primarily on your reports, I have recently left the heat running as we neared home, hoping to get some experience a the low end. Twice we have received the first low battery warning as the GOM passed 8 miles within a couple miles of home. We confidently pressed ahead (turning the heat off), knowing there were at least 10 more miles "hidden" below zero, and each time we we arrived safely. On a recent cold night, however, we again got the LB caution about 1.5 miles of the house, but pulled into the garage on turtle with only four power bubbles. I've tried not to think it out too deeply, but at least for this colder season, I'll be a bit more conservative.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

How did you like the remaining range estimator?.. the GOM.. my theory is that it will work well in flat Florida. GOM stands for Guess-O-Meter.

I love it, depart from home 93 miles, 7 miles into trip 100 miles. OK is flat. I am very comfortable with GOM and is helpful.

 

[abasile]

On a recent cold night, however, we again got the LB caution about 1.5 miles of the house, but pulled into the garage on turtle with only four power bubbles. I've tried not to think it out too deeply, but at least for this colder season, I'll be a bit more conservative.

Glad you made it home! This reminds me of another battery depletion event back in February. It wasn't long after this that Nissan revised the car's firmware to change the mapping of the charge bars on the display. This re-mapping didn't change the usable capacity, but "hid" more of the low end so as to discourage people from counting on it. In all truth, the current LEAF cannot be reliably driven as a 100 mile car. A very nice vehicle it is, and we really appreciate ours, but it's best to be realistic about its limitations.

 

[gbarry42]

Twice we have received the first low battery warning as the GOM passed 8 miles within a couple miles of home [...] On a recent cold night, however, we again got the LB caution about 1.5 miles of the house, but pulled into the garage on turtle with only four power bubbles.

If I read that right, you got LB warning with 8 miles on the GOM, but only were able to go 1.5 ? That's scary.

 

[gbarry42]

In all truth, the current LEAF cannot be reliably driven as a 100 mile car.

I'm claiming "partial truth". It appears that where we live has a lot to do with the range. Folks in the warm, flat places really do get 5 miles per kW, and can reach 100 miles. Those of us who have to contend with hills every day are looking at 4 MPK and about a 75 mile range. And of course, we each believe that everyone else's experience is similar to our own

 

[davewill]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. ...
I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. ...

20 miles!! That's 20-30% of the total range and WAY too much to just give away. Seems way to self-conscious an attitude for me. I'm not in Tony's league, but I don't mind hitting LBW close to getting home.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It could be potentially dangerous if the BMS glitches at that point and allows a cell to be reverse charged below 0V.. but I'm sure the warranty would cover the damage... until Nissan pulls Tony's battery report and sees his history :shock:

I've already had a battery report done at the dealer, and got 5 stars on everything.

So, exactly what usage do you suggest I'm doing that is contrary to the terms of the warranty ?

Let me suggest, "none".

 

[TomT]

My feeling is that if it was a problem, Nissan would not allow the BMS to regularly allow it.

It could be potentially dangerous if the BMS glitches at that point and allows a cell to be reverse charged below 0V.. but I'm sure the warranty would cover the damage... until Nissan pulls Tony's battery report and sees his history :shock:

I've already had a battery report done at the dealer, and got 5 stars on everything.
So, exactly what usage do you suggest I'm doing that is contrary to the terms of the warranty ?
Let me suggest, "none".

 

[DaveEV]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. ...
I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. ...

20 miles!! That's 20-30% of the total range and WAY too much to just give away. Seems way to self-conscious an attitude for me. I'm not in Tony's league, but I don't mind hitting LBW close to getting home.

+1. 20 miles is too much to give away - might as well be driving a Volt. 10 mile buffer (planning to get home around LBW) is much more reasonable. This is actually one of Toyota's arguments against BEVs and using a smaller battery in the plug-in Prius - regularly using 100% of the battery maximizes one's return on investment and "range anxiety" keeps most people from using the bottom of the pack regularly.

I still wish the LEAF had another 30% battery capacity (~31 kWh battery) - going from 60 mile worst case range to 80 mile worst case and would allow most people to get in to the 100 mile club without issue. I suspect that Tony would like the same thing and am curious as to what Model S he will be ordering (40 / 60 / 85 kWh?).