Six miles, Low Battery Warning to Turtle (Sans Effect)

[TonyWilliams]

While you may feel that you need to hide from Hummer and "Dually" drivers, that doesn't, and will not, enter into my thoughts. Actually, it seems kind of childish.

You know they are going to take pictures with their phones.. at least carry a tarp so you can cover up your shame.

Except I've got nothing to be ashamed of. I even posted MY picture of the event in the first post.

We live in different worlds; I don't hide

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just like in airplanes... There are those who have and there are those who will....

Let's hope nobody does a gear-up in a LEAF !!!

Or, were you referring to the mile high club?

;-)

 

[DaveEV]

Hitting the 12 mile to go mark at LBW was perfect. Any speed below 60mph should have been possible. The heater is not a factor, as I turned it off at 12 miles, AND lowered the speed.

The bottom line; something is SIGNIFICANTLY different from every other time. Hopefully, most folks can understand a variation, but this was 50%+ reduction in range historically from LBW.

That is the issue.

IMHO - the real issue is depending on a black box for reliable range information - and then relying on it to get you within spitting distance of your planned destination. At a minimum using the gid-meter should provide some additional insight into what's going on at the lower ranges of SOC. But without knowing actual voltages of each cell-pair in real time, we're always going to be in the dark.

Going back to the last 2 charges: 183 minutes and 38 miles to go but only went 32 miles before turtle do you have any idea what your mi/kWh was over those last 32 miles? Assuming that you got 9.7 kWh into the pack, that would imply that you were only getting around 3.3 mi / kWh on the dash which seems pretty low for 60 mph on the freeway unless you were really sucking down the heat or going up hill. Hard to say without seeing your route...

Since the car was no longer in turtle after you turned it back on - I do have to wonder if the car just made an error in estimating how much energy was left in the pack as others have suggested - and if simply waiting some time before continuing would have gotten you there - or at least a bit closer to your destination!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just getting closer still meant a tow. I don't plan for "close enough"!

We're saying the same basic stuff, otherwise. Cell voltages, with a monitor to warn of imbalance, should that prove to ultimately be the problem.

As to planning to "spitting distance", it's necessary for the way I operate the car. I ordered believing in 100 mile range, and the reality is significantly less. For me to arbitrarily pad a reserve some have suggested would add HOURS of charging... Hours I don't have. This trip arrived after midnight, and it had to be 100% charged for today (where I only hit LBW after many hours of trickle charge).

Charging just an extra hour or two yesterday would not have allowed today's travel plan.

The first Apollo mission to the moon landed with less 60 seconds of extra fuel; planned with slide rules to a place no man had ever been, further away than any man had ever been. They had a few black boxes, and some charts of data to guide them.

 

[Caracalover]

I have to wonder if the 12 volt battery took a charge from the main pack after you hit LBW. You were using the lights, so it would stand to reason that could be a factor perahaps not in previous results. If you used the defroster this also pulls from the 12 volt system I believe. What I don't know is how many watts it takes to charge the 12 Volt battery, and what it might do to the sensors that trigger turtle mode. This may also be why turtle went away, after that power draw was finished. Read "jump starting your Leaf" in the owner's manual for the answer to "How do I start the car and get it in N if it won't start?"

On a semi related journey, I left my house to go get cats from a shelter 19 miles away with 5 bars showing. It was raining and I often can go this distance with only 1 bar loss, so I was not frugal, using the heat and driving fast. After adopting the cats got in the car and with cycling had only 2 bars showing, not good since I have never gotten home with that few bars and running out of power with two cats in the car is not an option, nor is a stop to charge. Took the freeway anyway, but it was crawling for the first few miles, and when the carpool lane started I used it to go 35 instead of the 15 every one else was going. When traffic started to move again, I exited the carpool lane (I was being followed by another Leaf BTW) and moved to the right, but kept my speed with traffic, around 45 -50. Net elevation loss/gain is 1000', the last 500 all within the last few miles to my home. Saw my first VLBW, but no turtle. The wife was very confident we would make it, and I am happy to say we did. I did take a little bit shorter route home, using a different freeway to shave a couple miles so count it as 16 miles on two bars in the rain with some defroster, but no heat.

To say: "If I can't plan to use the (very limited) predicted range 100% of the time, it's just another issue that the car isn't quite ready for prime time." is not accurate, since there is no "predicted range". It is not ready for your use perhaps Tony, but for many of us, it works just fine as long as we are reasonable. As Nissan has said repeatedly range varies depending on many factors. I am sure you are planning a bigger cushion now, rather than playing devil's advocate to squeeze every mile out of it. Then again maybe not, since you wanted to see how far it would go after you were towed and it restarted - I mean really WTF is that? Try that with an ICE - you can use the starter motor to move the car until the battery/starter motor gives out after you run out of fuel, but the repair cost is going to be a factor and you won't go very far. I just don't understand why you feel the need to do this, even if many of us gain some small amount of knowledge from your experiences.

I am happy to hear you planned this trip for 60MPH on the freeway, so all in all good job and happy holidays.

 

[cwerdna]

First, let me say that I don't care what Hummer drivers think or do, I don't have a spare Prius to drive. I don't care whether others do or do not use the full potential of the car (with the extremely benign consequences of it not working). Based on the predictable nature of the previous 12 Turtle events, this 13th event is atypical.
...
Yes, I have known about other cases of this similar to this event. My impetus for sharing is so that we can learn and understand how we can be warned of a similar instance happening again.

For me, it's an issue of time, value, money, anxiety and aggravation (waiting for car to charge while on a journey, hunting for working charging stations, tow, etc.). I'm sure you weren't jumping for joy at your charge situation before flying to the Bay Area, where we spoke for awhile...

If I do finally get a Leaf, I'm still keeping a gasser (my Prius). Some of my driving exceeds the range of the Leaf or goes beyond the amount of padding I'd give it. In some cases, I'd hate to cut short a trip because I don't have enough juice left and don't have time to stop to charge and wait wherever the heck it is. If we only had extensive CHAdeMo infrastructure instead of 0 (for all intents and purposes) in Nor Cal.

I sometimes visit SF and sometimes certain individuals there. There's no way to make the roundtrip (>120 miles) from my house on a single charge. It's enough of a challenge just to find parking for the duration needed, let alone anything w/charging.

If you're doing this as a exercise to learn and/or inform Leafers, more power to you. But for me, I wouldn't have the patience nor motivation to. I also fear that you will find things becoming even more tight as the battery degrades... Let's see what happens next winter.

 

[DaveEV]

As to planning to "spitting distance", it's necessary for the way I operate the car. I ordered believing in 100 mile range, and the reality is significantly less. For me to arbitrarily pad a reserve some have suggested would add HOURS of charging... Hours I don't have. This trip arrived after midnight, and it had to be 100% charged for today (where I only hit LBW after many hours of trickle charge).

To be fair - let's just say that any distance beyond VLBW is at best a gamble - one that you may win 9/10 times, but still a gamble that most will want to avoid. And using your experience, let's just shave 6 miles off the expected range - that's only 30 minutes of charging, not hours.

PS - still curious as to what your mi / kWh was over the last 32 miles of your trip... and where exactly on 57 did you hit turtle? There aren't that many spots in the middle of nowhere on it...

PPS - looking forward to reading about your next adventure...

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

One of the first things I did after buying my Leaf was to deliberately run it down to turtle to understand how much warning I got and what it could do in that mode. I live on a ridge, and barely made it up the hill once the car turtled... it almost wouldn't go at all up a steep hill even at the beginning of turtle. That, combined with what I've seen with rechargables being variable in a wide variety of other applications lead me to conclude that the Leaf's system is designed to predict zero with enough fudge factor to give certainty and anything below zero is variable and not worthy of relying on if the stakes are high... that's a system that is ready for prime time, IMHO. I have seen bars hold more than they "should" as well as less than they "should", especially after multiple partial charges, but it's also hard to know if you are at the beginning of a bar or not unless you watched carefully while charging, with lots of updates through an app so you can see when the next bar showed up and began "filling". I've decided to go with assuming zero is actually zero, giving enough wiggle room for variations and it does seems logical that that is why they chose to put it where they did. Since you can get just as far aiming for DTZ, assuming zero is actually zero by just driving less aggressively, but do so with confidence, why not simply use zero for the destination rather than turtle?

I do admire those willing to push the envelope and share the results and take the heat, so thank you for that.

 

[planet4ever]

Oh, I forgot. How do you put the car in neutral to get towed without turning the car on?

Off topic, but you asked the question. When I had to be towed due to a flat tire I opted for AAA, and the dispatcher sent a truck that could only lift the front wheels and pull the car behind. The manuals say that is OK, and with that procedure there is no need for neutral. Why all the emphasis on flat-bed towing?

Ray

 

[edatoakrun]

One of the first things I did after buying my Leaf was to deliberately run it down to turtle to understand how much warning I got and what it could do in that mode. I live on a ridge, and barely made it up the hill once the car turtled... it almost wouldn't go at all up a steep hill even at the beginning of turtle...

Anyone know how steep a hill you can climb in turtle?

 

[adric22]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. And if for some bizarre reason I felt I needed to plan such a trip, I'd at least plan for contingencies such as possible places I might charge in an emergency.

I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. I have been in so many arguments with people about electric cars (Remember I live in Texas, the idea isn't all that accepted here) and one of the many negative things I always hear from the haters is "I bet I'll see these Leafs all over the side of the roads, out of power, assuming anyone even buys them. what a bunch of morons." So by letting myself run out of power on the side of the highway I would be giving them the very ammunition they are looking for.

 

[ebill3]

Oh, I forgot. How do you put the car in neutral to get towed without turning the car on?

Off topic, but you asked the question. When I had to be towed due to a flat tire I opted for AAA, and the dispatcher sent a truck that could only lift the front wheels and pull the car behind. The manuals say that is OK, and with that procedure there is no need for neutral. Why all the emphasis on flat-bed towing?

Ray

But, how do you put the car in neutral without turning it on?

I can't address the emphasis on flat-bed towing, but it certainly seems to be the norm where I live. Can't remember the last time I saw a vehicle being "towed".

Bill

 

[thankyouOB]

my stop gap is an oppty-charging station 11 miles from my house.
going streets, I can cover the 11 miles doing 35 or get back on the hiway and do 55-60.

what is a reasonable charge time at those speeds to make a trip of 11 miles?

Is this the right calculation?
45 minutes is 2.1 kWh available to the wheels
and that equals about 10.5 miles at 35
or
about 8.5 at 60

peter

 

[GRA]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. And if for some bizarre reason I felt I needed to plan such a trip, I'd at least plan for contingencies such as possible places I might charge in an emergency.

I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. I have been in so many arguments with people about electric cars (Remember I live in Texas, the idea isn't all that accepted here) and one of the many negative things I always hear from the haters is "I bet I'll see these Leafs all over the side of the roads, out of power, assuming anyone even buys them. what a bunch of morons." So by letting myself run out of power on the side of the highway I would be giving them the very ammunition they are looking for.

I'm with you. It's not that I'd be embarrassed by needing a tow; it's that this is a 'new' technology with advantages and limitations, the most serious of which both actually and perceptually to the mainstream is the lack of range allied with the lack of charging infrastructure. Aside from the general public who are ideologically neutral about their cars, there are many people at the opposite end of the philosophic spectrum from BEV buyers who are determined to emphasize the limitations and ignore the advantages. Apart from the very real limitations currently, the depth of resistance is probably due to the fact that such a vehicle transition implicitly threatens their chosen lifestyle. This is no more than human.

EVs are a 'new' technology that need nurturing if they are going to 'cross the chasm' to the mainstream. As such, while 'we' on the inside may know about the limitations, its important for the moment (when there are so few BEVs on the road) to limit the amount of negative PR, so as not to contribute to the stereotype. After all, the first Leaf that most people see right now is likely to be the _only_ Leaf they'll see for some time; if it's being towed in because it ran out of charge, their perceptions of EVs are likely to be permanently damaged.

Guy

 

[thankyouOB]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. And if for some bizarre reason I felt I needed to plan such a trip, I'd at least plan for contingencies such as possible places I might charge in an emergency.

I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. I have been in so many arguments with people about electric cars (Remember I live in Texas, the idea isn't all that accepted here) and one of the many negative things I always hear from the haters is "I bet I'll see these Leafs all over the side of the roads, out of power, assuming anyone even buys them. what a bunch of morons." So by letting myself run out of power on the side of the highway I would be giving them the very ammunition they are looking for.

I'm with you. It's not that I'd be embarrassed by needing a tow; it's that this is a 'new' technology with advantages and limitations, the most serious of which both actually and perceptually to the mainstream is the lack of range allied with the lack of charging infrastructure. Aside from the general public who are ideologically neutral about their cars, there are many people at the opposite end of the philosophic structure from BEV buyers who are determined to emphasize the limitations and ignore the advantages. Aside from the very real limitations currently, the depth of resistance is probably due to the fact that such a vehicle transition implicitly threatens their chosen lifestyle. This is no more than human.

EVs are a 'new' technology that needs nurturing if it is going to 'cross the chasm' to the mainstream. as such, while 'we' on the inside may know about the limitations, its important for the moment (when there are so few BEVs on the road) to limit the amount of negative PR, so as not to contribute to the stereotype. After all, the first Leaf that most pople see right now is likely to be the _only_ Leaf they've ever seen; if it's being towed in because it ran out of charge, their perceptions of EVs are likely to be permanently damaged.

Guy

I am sorry you guys feel this way and that either of you carry such a burden. but dont put it on me.

as to the haters, half of what republicans say is more about pissing off liberals than making rational decisions or logical arguments.

 

[cwerdna]

I can see quite a few different opinions here. I guess we each have our own philosophy. But my philosophy is that I won't plan to take a trip in the Leaf unless I know I have a good 20+ extra driving miles. I would never plan a journey knowing that I would be flirting with turtle mode in order to make it there. And if for some bizarre reason I felt I needed to plan such a trip, I'd at least plan for contingencies such as possible places I might charge in an emergency.

I would feel very embarrassed to have my Leaf towed away from the side of a highway. I have been in so many arguments with people about electric cars (Remember I live in Texas, the idea isn't all that accepted here) and one of the many negative things I always hear from the haters is "I bet I'll see these Leafs all over the side of the roads, out of power, assuming anyone even buys them. what a bunch of morons." So by letting myself run out of power on the side of the highway I would be giving them the very ammunition they are looking for.

Agree with the above completely.

As a Prius owner (adric22 has/had one too), I've seen and heard so much anti-hybrid hate and misinformation, I'd hate to give those haters and EV haters more ammunition. Some of the anti-hybrid hate/FUD carries over to BEVs.

 

[rumpole]

My question is what would happen if, before the car completely dies, you pulled over and shut it off for, say, 15 minutes, then turned it on and kept going. My hypothesis is that you would gain at least a few miles over driving it to the bitter end. Or, after it did die, and sit for 15 minutes, would you suddenly have a few miles?

The reason I suggest this is that several times, I've drained the lead-acid battery in my ICE car, by leaving a light on overnight, for example, so it wouldn't turn over. When you turn off the light and let the car sit for 10, 15, 20 minutes, you suddenly have enough charge to turn it over a couple of times. Also, with my electric lawn mower, which has two lead acid batteries, when it runs out (always with just a few more feet of lawn to cut ) I'll let it sit for 10 minutes, and presto, I've got a few more minutes of run time.

Both of these examples are with lead-acid batteries, so maybe Li-ion doesn't behave like this, but I think the effect is just due to the internal chemical reactions in the battery, and if you give the battery some time not under load, it seems to recover a bit of charge.

Has anybody tried this with their Leaf?

BTW, I'm picking mine up tomorrow in Rockville, MD

 

[TomT]

Nope, Li batteries are not like lead-acid. Letting them rest does not gain you anything... And once it is dead and has shut down, nothing but some time on the charger will revive it.

My question is what would happen if, before the car completely dies, you pulled over and shut it off for, say, 15 minutes, then turned it on and kept going. My hypothesis is that you would gain at least a few miles over driving it to the bitter end. Or, after it did die, and sit for 15 minutes, would you suddenly have a few miles?

 

[planet4ever]

My question is what would happen if, before the car completely dies, you pulled over and shut it off for, say, 15 minutes, then turned it on and kept going. My hypothesis is that you would gain at least a few miles over driving it to the bitter end. Or, after it did die, and sit for 15 minutes, would you suddenly have a few miles?

Nope, Li batteries are not like lead-acid. Letting them rest does not gain you anything... And once it is dead, nothing but sometime on the charger will revive it.

However we have been told by Nissan engineers that they are not able to determine the exact state of charge while the car is running, but that they can do better when it is shut down. So it is possible that if you shut down after turtle comes on but before the car shuts itself down, then you might be able to restart and end up with a little extra range. Or not.

But that wouldn't take a 15 minute shutdown, and I would be surprised if it gave you even one more mile of range, at best.

My advice remains, if you ever see the turtle, pull over at the first safe opportunity and shut the car off. Before calling for help I suppose you could try starting it again just to see if you got lucky.

Ray

 

[TonyWilliams]

As Nissan has said repeatedly range varies depending on many factors. I am sure you are planning a bigger cushion now, rather than playing devil's advocate to squeeze every mile out of it.

I wasn't planning ANY cushion. Not planning to significantly change that, however, I need to adjust my car's range.