Said goodbye to the Leaf yesterday

[klapauzius]

Volt fires were not really a problem, so GM was able to aggressively counter that immediately and came out high in the end.

These problems in the Leaf are real solid problems for which there is no defined solutIion yet. Hence the conundrum for Nissan. Converting AZ and TX Leafs to leases and such, are just band-aids. There should be a real technical/scientific solution if Nissan has to come out of the other side a winner.

I am afraid that there will be no short-term solution and the current situation can
only be solved by acknowledging that current battery technology does not work
at high ambient temperatures.

Seeing the rapid decay, I am starting to wonder, if even thermal management will not make a huge
difference. With the heat in Phoenix, the battery cooling system would have to run
all the time,presumably off battery power.
Maybe we should watch the volt forums closer for similar stories next year.

 

[kubel]

I don't think he's overreacting. I think he's getting out while the getting is good. This generation of battery technology is not suitable for extreme conditions without thermal management. I'm not saying everyone should have known this- but I did well before the LEAF was released. I laughed at the LEAF as a Volt fanboy because it didn't have a TMS and then subsequently bought one.

People need to own and care for this car as if it's not a battery under the seats- it's a pack filled with a hundred hamsters on wheels powering the LEAF. If it gets too hot, they start to die off. If it gets too cold, they start to freeze. I'm willing to bet the tolerances for hamsters is probably similar to lithium ion. 100 and they start to croak. Under 50 and they start slowing down a bit as they get closer to hypothermia. Ford and GM did well providing a comfort zone for their hamsters. Nissan just doesn't give a ****. SAVE THE HAMSTERS, NISSAN! Those evil hamster slaving bastages.

I knew this when I got the car. I'm surprised Nissan didn't do more to explain this to their customers.

With that said, Nissan can't afford to have the LEAF go down in history as a flop. They will replace hamsters for people who suffer premature hamster degradation. I'm confident of this. Of course, if they don't, I (and hundreds of others) will never buy another Nissan again. I hear Ford makes a nice EV.

 

[thankyouOB]

I don't think he's overreacting. I think he's getting out while the getting is good. This generation of battery technology is not suitable for extreme conditions without thermal management. I'm not saying everyone should have known this- but I did well before the LEAF was released. I laughed at the LEAF as a Volt fanboy because it didn't have a TMS and then subsequently bought one.

People need to own and care for this car as if it's not a battery under the seats- it's a pack filled with a hundred hamsters on wheels powering the LEAF. If it gets too hot, they start to die off. If it gets too cold, they start to freeze. I'm willing to bet the tolerances for hamsters is probably similar to lithium ion. 100 and they start to croak. Under 50 and they start slowing down a bit as they get closer to hypothermia. Ford and GM did well providing a comfort zone for their hamsters. Nissan just doesn't give a ****. SAVE THE HAMSTERS, NISSAN! Those evil hamster slaving bastages.

I knew this when I got the car. I'm surprised Nissan didn't do more to explain this to their customers.

With that said, Nissan can't afford to have the LEAF go down in history as a flop. They will replace hamsters for people who suffer premature hamster degradation. I'm confident of this. Of course, if they don't, I (and hundreds of others) will never buy another Nissan again. I hear Ford makes a nice EV.

very well put.
there is an evil hamster that keeps saying to me:
maybe they dont deserve the Leaf in TX and AZ.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Why? I am really taking care of my hamsters by running AC in my garage and let them rest, waiting for Nissan to tell me what is max temp that is OK to put hamsters to work. I think is lower than 100F. Other hamster breeders sound very load alarm when temp is 90 and provide cold air for their hamsters.

 

[derkraut]

Enough about hamsters already. I can't stand the little buggers. The only good hamster is a dead hamster. :x :x :x :x :x :x

 

[LEAFfan]

I hear Ford makes a nice EV.

Yes, it's probably a very nice EV, but it will only be available in a few Western states and on the East Coast for compliance. And IF someone decides to lease one, here are the lease facts quoted from Electric Vehicle News:
"On its face, the least-desirable deal is on the Ford Focus Electric, which is $439 a month, and also adds a $2490 down payment, $595 acquisition fee, and $3524 due at signing."

 

[GRA]

I hear Ford makes a nice EV.

Yes, it's probably a very nice EV, but it will only be available in a few Western states and on the East Coast for compliance. And IF someone decides to lease one, here are the lease facts quoted from Electric Vehicle News:
"On its face, the least-desirable deal is on the Ford Focus Electric, which is $439 a month, and also adds a $2490 down payment, $595 acquisition fee, and $3524 due at signing."

To which should be appended, "but is unlikely to suffer 20+ % capacity loss in as little as 15 months in hot temps, and will probably last out the lease period with no more than 20% total loss, thus changing the economics."

 

[dlich18]

This discussion makes me feel vindicated in my decision to lease rather than buy. I still have 12 bars after 12 mos and 13K miles, but we are all early adopters, and Nissan's reaction to the capacity loss issue would irk me even more if the ultimate financial issue (i.e. residual) was mine instead of Nissan's.

 

[Deleted member 3147]

People need to own and care for this car as if it's not a battery under the seats- it's a pack filled with a hundred hamsters on wheels powering the LEAF. If it gets too hot, they start to die off. If it gets too cold, they start to freeze. I'm willing to bet the tolerances for hamsters is probably similar to lithium ion. 100 and they start to croak. Under 50 and they start slowing down a bit as they get closer to hypothermia. Ford and GM did well providing a comfort zone for their hamsters. Nissan just doesn't give a ****. SAVE THE HAMSTERS, NISSAN! Those evil hamster slaving bastages.

Hamsters are a heck of a lot cheaper than LIon modules! :lol:

 

[davewill]

... Hamsters are a heck of a lot cheaper than LIon modules! :lol:

Maybe not if you think about how many hamsters it would actually take to power a car...

 

[nosuchthing]

If this happened to me I'd just take it to the dealer and have them find the faulty cells and replace them at, I presume, 50-70 bucks a piece. Hopefully less.

 

[TomT]

Around $600 each I believe... Plus labor.

If this happened to me I'd just take it to the dealer and have them find the faulty cells and replace them at, I presume, 50-70 bucks a piece. Hopefully less.

 

[dlich18]

If it was a bad cell, it would be replaced under warranty - no? The factor that is not warrantied is "capacity loss" which shouldn't have anything to do with a "bad" cell. At least that's my understanding.

 

[SanDust]

If it was a bad cell, it would be replaced under warranty - no? The factor that is not warrantied is "capacity loss" which shouldn't have anything to do with a "bad" cell. At least that's my understanding.

Replacing individual cells isn't realistic. The cells have to be balanced and sticking a new cell in with old cells unbalances the module.

 

[IBELEAF]

Around $600 each I believe... Plus labor.

If this happened to me I'd just take it to the dealer and have them find the faulty cells and replace them at, I presume, 50-70 bucks a piece. Hopefully less.

Isn't there a 48 cells making this $28,800 for the battery?

 

[Volusiano]

Around $600 each I believe... Plus labor.

If this happened to me I'd just take it to the dealer and have them find the faulty cells and replace them at, I presume, 50-70 bucks a piece. Hopefully less.

Isn't there a 48 cells making this $28,800 for the battery?

Individual cells may list for a high price but you can't just take that price and multiply them by 48 to come up with the price for the whole battery. Just like you can't add individual prices of parts of a car together to arrive at its final price. You're looking at retail vs wholesale pricing.

 

[thankyouOB]

dont forget that the install and removal are extra.
that costs about $3900 at today's flat rate.

 

[Volusiano]

dont forget that the install and removal are extra.
that costs about $3900 at today's flat rate.

I think that's an outrageous price. Have you ever quizzed them to see how they come up with that number? It should just be pure labor and even at dealership flat rate labor (let's say $150/hour), that's about 26 hours to remove and install a battery pack? If I had to pay for this out of pocket instead of through insurance, I'd tell them I want to hang around to see how they need 26 hours to complete the job.

 

[DaveEV]

If it was a bad cell, it would be replaced under warranty - no? The factor that is not warrantied is "capacity loss" which shouldn't have anything to do with a "bad" cell. At least that's my understanding.

Replacing individual cells isn't realistic. The cells have to be balanced and sticking a new cell in with old cells unbalances the module.

Technically, only modules (the big sardine looking cans) will be replaced when required. I don't think the modules can be opened to get at one of the individual cells inside without destroying the case. The service manual outlines procedures to bring the pack back into balance when replacing a module. The BMS will be able to manage any small imbalances in the cell that occur due to modules being slightly different. Having a weak module is actually more difficult to keep balanced than having a strong module...

 

[RegGuheert]

dont forget that the install and removal are extra.
that costs about $3900 at today's flat rate.

I think that's an outrageous price. Have you ever quizzed them to see how they come up with that number? It should just be pure labor and even at dealership flat rate labor (let's say $150/hour), that's about 26 hours to remove and install a battery pack? If I had to pay for this out of pocket instead of through insurance, I'd tell them I want to hang around to see how they need 26 hours to complete the job.

I agree that is a lot of money, but it seems there are quite a few steps involved to get it out safely at the proper state-of-charge and without completely disrupting the other systems in the car. After reinsertion there should be a battery of tests to ensure all is in order and to reacquaint the car with the battery. Only LEAF-certified technicians can do this type of removal/replacement.

To me, another issue would seem to be storing that huge, heavy thing while the car is in the body shop..