SAE combo plug/Frankenplug EV/PHEV car list

[smkettner]

I will believe GM when I see the vehicle on the road.
For some time I was set on the "other EV".... the Volt :roll:

 

[scottf200]

The rest are supposedly all in development, with even more unknowns. It'll be interesting to see how much this picture changes when we hit the end of 2012.

This is actually one of reasons I want the LEAF sales to pick up and look promising. I'm afraid if they do not then it may scare away some of other manufacturer or make them scale back their plans. They may interpret poor sales to the "masses" or general public not comfortable with a BEV yet or at least with the 100* miles range. Cost issues to if 40+ MPG cars keep being made an improved. I'm guessing Nissan has some 40+ MPG cars as well currently. (Well I see some 30-40 MPG cars but none over 40 - http://www.intellichoice.com/10-14-420-2/nissan-30-40-mpg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

 

[cwerdna]

Cost issues to if 40+ MPG cars keep being made an improved. I'm guessing Nissan has some 40+ MPG cars as well currently. (Well I see some 30-40 MPG cars but none over 40 - http://www.intellichoice.com/10-14-420-2/nissan-30-40-mpg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

I'm still irked by the so-called "40+ mpg" cars. The only ICEVs that are "40+ mpg" COMBINED on the EPA test currently are all hybrids (see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2012&year2=2013&rdomsrp01=85000_0&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&cbftreggasoline=Regular+Gasoline&cbftmidgasoline=Midgrade+Gasoline&cbftprmgasoline=Premium+Gasoline&cbftdiesel=Diesel&cbfte85=E85&city=0&combined=40&highway=0&mpgType=0&minMPGSel=&maxMPGSel=&rowLimit=50&YearSel=2012-2013&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=Regular+Gasoline%2C+Midgrade+Gasoline%2C+Premium+Gasoline%2C+Diesel%2C+E85&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=0400&sortBy=City&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. The other so-called "40 mpg" (highway) cars are low 30 mpg combined vehicles. Not everyone lives and works on a highway or is able to do (free-flowing) highway speeds on their commute.

On this note, CR recently tested 3 "40 mpg" sedans (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/05/video-are-the-high-mpg-versions-of-the-chevrolet-cruze-ford-focus-and-honda-civic-worth-the-money.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a summary). In overall mileage, they got 31, 33 and 27 mpg.

In comparison, Prius liftback gets 44 mpg and Prius c gets 43 mpg (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/02/the-most-fuel-efficient-cars/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. Even though CR didn't like the c, the Prius c Two they tested was cheaper than the as tested price of the 2 of the 3 "40 mpg" sedans.

 

[cwerdna]

Frankenplug Cast Members:

1. Audi - nothing announced

On the note of Audi, there's this:
Audi Cans Electric A2 City Car, A1 E-Tron: Report
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Even though CR didn't like the c, the Prius c Two they tested was cheaper than the as tested price of the 2 of the 3 "40 mpg" sedans.

I had an opportunity to drive the c and I have to agree with them on most of what they wrote about it. As a vehicle it was pretty much unimpressive and also looked very cheap inside...

 

[scottf200]

Frankenplug Cast Members:

1. Audi - nothing announced

On the note of Audi, there's this:
Audi Cans Electric A2 City Car, A1 E-Tron: Report
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think we will see more of this because of the low LEAF sales? (370 Apr, 510 May) That has to scare a lot of these car companies when they are making real world business decisions doing data analysis. Nissan may be scaring off the competition ... very clever tactic.

 

[cwerdna]

Frankenplug Cast Members:

1. Audi - nothing announced

On the note of Audi, there's this:
Audi Cans Electric A2 City Car, A1 E-Tron: Report
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076657_audi-cans-electric-a2-city-car-a1-e-tron-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think we will see more of this because of the low LEAF sales? (370 Apr, 510 May) That has to scare a lot of these car companies when they are making real world business decisions doing data analysis. Nissan may be scaring off the competition ... very clever tactic.

Don't know, but I can't see Audi selling many EVs in the US given (per http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/04/2011-onward-and-upward-edition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false they sold ~11% of the vehicles in the US that Nissan (+ Infiniti) did. I can't speak to the Audi brand's worldwide sales though.

But, the VW group (which has MANY brands) has HUGE worldwide sales, despite low US sales.

 

[edatoakrun]

...Nissan may be scaring off the competition ... very clever tactic.

I think that statement is correct, though unintentionally so.

Only Nissan (and to a lesser extent, Mitsubishi) have committed to large scale BEV production.

When Nissan's American and European BEV factories open next year, economies of scale mean Nissan will likely be able to maintain full output of close to 200,000 BEVs a year, sell them at close to current LEAF prices, and begin to make a profit on BEV sales.

Other manufactures previous plans for ICEV conversions are not only technically inferior to Nissan's BEV designs, but low production numbers and high-cost outsourcing of batteries and other EV specific components, means they will have much higher costs of production.

For example, GM will probably have considerably higher production costs for the Spark EVs, but will have to price them well below the LEAF, just to move a few thousand of these ...things... a year. GM undoubtedly has other objectives, rather than profit, in continuing the Spark EV program.

Yes, Nissan has scared away most of the real competition in the BEV mass-market, at least for the next year or two.

The majority of BEVs sold in 2013 worldwide, will probably from Nissan-Renault, and this market share may even reach over 75%, if the large high-end BEV market Tesla is projecting, does not appear.

Unfortunately, the lack of competitiveness of these other potential BEV market participants, seems to have led to efforts, like the SAE DC "standard", to slow the growth of the BEV market overall.

I hope that these "SAE" manufactures are planning future BEV production that could be competitive with Nissan's BEVs.
But so far, the BEV models have not been announced, and the factories to build them, are even further in the future.

Three years ago, I thought that, by this time, American BEV buyers would have five or six competitive BEV's to choose from for under $30,000 (including incentives) and unfortunately, there are really only two worthy of consideration, IMO.

I hope that that is not still the case in another few years, and that other manufactures are making plans to produce competitive mass-market BEVs, that have not yet been announced.

 

[scottf200]

I think Nissan is less concerned about BEV competition as they are about EREV/PHEV competition. There are several of the latter vehicles out and more to come. Buyers are comfortable with these and HOV-related sales boost will continue for several months. That certainly won't make 200,000 BEVs a year if they cannot sell 15,000+/month.

The joint ACEA/SAE solution for the evolution Combo QC plug beyond the previous generation CHAdeMO QC plug and EVS26 announcement happened after sub-1000 sales of the LEAF started. To this point some are going to suggest in the future that the ACEA/SAE Combo hurt the LEAF sales but they suffered before it.

Submitted by Ashley Abraham (not verified) on Sat, 05/26/2012 - 08:36.

The work done by the SAE and ACEA and the progress made in TEC (Trans-Atlantic Economic Cooperation) is focussed on the vehicle inlet side involving an "envelope" solution capable of supporting single phase AC, three phase AC and D[C] charging. It is recognised that the electricity system between Europe and the US is quite different, but the joint ACEA/SAE solution caters for both. There are a number of advantages of the Combo plug over CHAdeMO with the most obvious being AC support up to 43kW and ultra fast DC charging. ]But there is also the introduction of advanced communication functionality including smart grid integration plus the opportunity to implement additional IP based services.

The Combo plug (without any spin) simply integrates AC and DC charging using one combined inlet, one charge protocol, one implementation of charging communication and one electric architecture for charging. I do not oppose CHAdeMO, but Combo is clearly the evolution of EV charging with broader support by way of AC, DC fast AC, ultra fast DC etc and economies by hosting just one vehicle inlet.

Finally, in addition to the announcement from vehicle manufacturers at EVS26, there are many more supporting Combo which did not participate in that announcement. Those include DAF, Fiat, Jaguar Land Rover, MAN, PSA, Renault, Scania, Volvo, AB Volvo and perhaps somewhat surprisingly Toyota Motor Europe (a member of the CHAdeMO alliance). I recognise that we are not yet in nirvana, with Japan, China and Korea all pursuing different charging protocols and connectors, but significantly from the European side, the ACEA supports IEC standardisation in search of a global standard, which at this time admittedly looks somewhat elusive.

As for Mennekes, this plus will be replaced on the vehicle inlet side but will continue for the foreseeable future as the plug for AC charging on the side of AC charging stations, so there is no contradiction with this. Unlike CHAdeMO it will work with Combo.

 

[RegGuheert]

Nice post, Ed! Thanks!

When Nissan's American and European BEV factories open next year, economies of scale mean Nissan will likely be able to maintain full output of close to 200,000 BEVs a year, sell them at close to current LEAF prices, and begin to make a profit on BEV sales.

One question I've had in mind about these factories: Will they be manufacturing other Nissan vehicles besides the LEAF like the factory in Japan does?

 

[ztanos]

The Tennessee plant will be producing other cars. I want to say the Titan, but don't quote me on that. I am 100% certain it will be another vehicle though.

 

[walterbays]

Excellent summary Ed!

I just hope that some car makers, GM and Ford in particular, are hedging their bets and producing not just CARB compliance cars but also the capability to quickly bring to market serious BEV models if conditions warrant. That is, if Leaf and other BEV sales skyrocket then GM might quickly ramp up Spark production and push ahead with a ground up BEV design we haven't yet heard of. No evidence, just hope.

Unfortunately, the lack of competitiveness of these other potential BEV market participants, seems to have led to efforts, like the SAE DC "standard", to slow the growth of the BEV market overall.

Unfortunately even if that is one part of their strategy, the other part - stall the BEV market with things like AB475 and the Frankenplug - makes it less likely they'll ever need to execute on the first part. Whereas if there were a good network of Chademo stations at the time GM and Ford began flooding the market with SAE combo cars, those stations would add new plugs faster than gas stations added diesel and E85 nozzles.

 

[RegGuheert]

The Tennessee plant will be producing other cars. I want to say the Titan, but don't quote me on that. I am 100% certain it will be another vehicle though.

Thanks! Makes sense.

 

[TomT]

That would be both funny and ironic. One of the most environmentally friendly cars and one of the most unfriendly trucks! :lol:

The Tennessee plant will be producing other cars. I want to say the Titan, but don't quote me on that.

 

[evnow]

Since GM Spark is a compliance car - people outside CA can't buy it.

That leaves us with i3. Sad - I was considering buying it. No CHAdeMO - No Sale. Same for Model S.

 

[palmermd]

That would be both funny and ironic. One of the most environmentally friendly cars and one of the most unfriendly trucks! :lol:

The Tennessee plant will be producing other cars. I want to say the Titan, but don't quote me on that.

From the Nissan website....

Production at Nissan's Smyrna Plant began in June 1983. The vehicle assembly plant has an annual production capacity of 550,000 vehicles and represents a capital investment of $2.5 billion. The plant produces the Nissan Altima, Nissan Maxima, Nissan Xterra, Nissan Frontier and Nissan Pathfinder.

 

[lne937s]

That would be both funny and ironic. One of the most environmentally friendly cars and one of the most unfriendly trucks! :lol:

The Tennessee plant will be producing other cars. I want to say the Titan, but don't quote me on that.

Nissan's expanded Smyrna plant is now the largest automotive manufacturing plant in America and makes a number of vehicles, primarily the Altima, but also the Maxima, Infiniti JX, new Pathfinder crossover, next Rogue, and the LEAF. BTW, it would be great if they added some of the tech to the LEAF from the new Altima (new backup camera, lane departure, as well as an aluminum hood and bumper beams) as they are to be assembled on the same line.

The Titan, Armada, and NV are made in Canton, Mississippi. Frontier and Xterra production is moving from Smyrna to Canton.

 

[TonyWilliams]

"Volkswagen, a major promoter of the Combo system, plans to put EVs on the market around the world from 2013 by converting some of its Golf and other popular models.

While Volkswagen will use the Combo system as the charging system for its EVs, the company will modify relevant units to accommodate the CHAdeMo system for the Japanese market."

I would guess that the not specifically mentioned USA that will have beau coup ChadeMo's compared to perhaps zero Frankenplugs might also get those "modified / accommodated" VW cars here in the USA.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html#storylink=cpy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

I think Nissan is less concerned about BEV competition as they are about EREV/PHEV competition. There are several of the latter vehicles out and more to come. Buyers are comfortable with these and HOV-related sales boost will continue for several months. That certainly won't make 200,000 BEVs a year if they cannot sell 15,000+/month.

I don't think Nissan's bothered by hybrids - especially considering that the marketing effort for BEVs is directed toward current hybrid owners - and most EVers come from the hybrid ranks.

Hybrids aren't competition - they're the primary customer pool.

 

[cwerdna]

ABG rumormill: BMW getting cold feet with i3 and i8 electric vehicle plans
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/06/12/bmw-getting-cold-feet-with-i3-and-i8-electric-vehicle-plans/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;