Replacement LEAF battery cheap compared to i3

[desiv]

With a big battery, high charge rates primarily would be of use on road trips, or in the cases of serious road warriors who drive all day for a living. And I think DC charging would still be much better suited for that. If the Leaf's battery capacity doubles, I'd be fine at the current charging rate. In fact, I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.

I'm reminded of the study around Tokyo Electric.
Where they found that installing more quick charges was a huge success for making people feel comfortable with their range with EVs.. Even tho they found those people rarely used the extra infrastructure.. ;-)
I've seen people read this as tho people aren't thining rationally about this (yes, I'm looking at you greencarreports), but that's silly. It is what it is and it's a very valid way to think...

I think the "need" for an extended battery, even if people don't really "need" it is valid, just like the "need" for more fast chargers is valid.

One thing to consider is whether or not the newer / larger battery will actually cost more to replace.
Nissan has stated they they will lose money on the battery replacement.
Yes, there will be cost savings over time, but will a larger battery pack mean the $6500 battery replacement for the current battery will be much more, closer to the i3? (See how I brought that back to the original topic!!! Wow! )?

Just something to think about..

desiv

 

[Deleted member 14724]

With a big battery, high charge rates primarily would be of use on road trips, or in the cases of serious road warriors who drive all day for a living. And I think DC charging would still be much better suited for that. If the Leaf's battery capacity doubles, I'd be fine at the current charging rate. In fact, I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.

I'm reminded of the study around Tokyo Electric.
Where they found that installing more quick charges was a huge success for making people feel comfortable with their range with EVs.. Even tho they found those people rarely used the extra infrastructure.. ;-)
I've seen people read this as tho people aren't thining rationally about this (yes, I'm looking at you greencarreports), but that's silly. It is what it is and it's a very valid way to think...

I think the "need" for an extended battery, even if people don't really "need" it is valid, just like the "need" for more fast chargers is valid.

One thing to consider is whether or not the newer / larger battery will actually cost more to replace.
Nissan has stated they they will lose money on the battery replacement.
Yes, there will be cost savings over time, but will a larger battery pack mean the $6500 battery replacement for the current battery will be much more, closer to the i3? (See how I brought that back to the original topic!!! Wow! )?

Just something to think about..

desiv

Yeah, but I bet the commutes are a lot shorter in Tokyo than in Atlanta. As it stands, I don't drive the Leaf when my daughter has a soccer match or other extracurricular activity which is 40+ miles away, which happens a dozen or so times a year. Once we get into that many cases where a car is just no workable, you have a bad fit. I think the Leaf is a fine commuter car. And while commuting is most of my driving, it is by no means all of the important, fairly regular driving that I do. That's why increasing the range is important. There are metropolitan areas like Atlanta or Houston, where travel outside of work can be just too long for an EV.

 

[desiv]

That's why increasing the range is important. There are metropolitan areas like Atlanta or Houston, where travel outside of work can be just too long for an EV.

While I agree that increasing the range is important (being an atypical EV owner (120 mile round trip commute) myself, I could use it..), that gets more to the concept of is the EV the right car for every situation.

That's a different discussion, especially with so many 2 car households...

When (if) the EV gets to a point that it can be the single car for all people in all (virtually) situations, that will be great.
But I don't think that it not being there is a major issue.

The Hummer isn't practical for a large number of people, but that doesn't mean it wasn't successful.

Or more likely, will we get to a point where there are several EVs that fit several markets. (kind of like the lower end cars now and the Tesla)
Will we still have the lower end commuters, and the longer range (more expensive) cars for people who want/need that extra range?

In 4 years, I see myself getting an EV with a range closer to 200 (160 even) miles. But would I pay more to have one that would go 400? Probably not (unless it's not much more money)... Doesn't mean that car shouldn't exist. But is also doesn't mean that all EVs need to be 400 mile cars.

There's a point where the range is "enough" for most people. Obviously 100 (80ish) isn't that range. ;-) Will 200 (160ish) be enough? Not sure.. Will be interesting to see.

In combination with the addition of DCQC stations, there will hopefully be that happy medium and the general public will relax.

But who knows where that balance will end up and when...

And at some point, it's likely that battery tech will be cheap enough that most EVs will have MUCH more range than needed.
Then, none of this matters.. ;-) I might not be still driving when that happens tho... If only Moore's Law applied to batteries.

desiv

 

[johnrhansen]

What I like about a bigger battery is two things. It doesn't need to be charged as often, and It can charge faster, because it's bigger! Not in terms of percent, but in terms of miles. That is if you have a bigger charger too!

 

[Deleted member 14724]

What I like about a bigger battery is two things. It doesn't need to be charged as often, and It can charge faster, because it's bigger! Not in terms of percent, but in terms of miles. That is if you have a bigger charger too!

But as others have pointed out, the necessity for the faster charger decreases for most people as the battery gets larger. I suspect that if battery advances outstrip charger technology, high speed onboard charging will be a pricey option, just because it would be more expensive (due to advances being slower than in batteries) and in low demand. Now, if charging technology advances at the same pace as batteries, they will probably get faster as batteries grow.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

What I like about a bigger battery is two things. It doesn't need to be charged as often, and It can charge faster, because it's bigger! Not in terms of percent, but in terms of miles. That is if you have a bigger charger too!

But as others have pointed out, the necessity for the faster charger decreases for most people as the battery gets larger. I suspect that if battery advances outstrip charger technology, high speed onboard charging will be a pricey option, just because it would be more expensive (due to advances being slower than in batteries) and in low demand. Now, if charging technology advances at the same pace as batteries, they will probably get faster as batteries grow.

I agree that the need for a faster onboard charger decreases with a bigger battery. However, the need for a faster offboard DC Quick Charger increases. This is because the car starts becoming useful for more and more trips. And a longer trip with a single QC approaches the convenience of a ICEV.

 

[Deleted member 14724]

What I like about a bigger battery is two things. It doesn't need to be charged as often, and It can charge faster, because it's bigger! Not in terms of percent, but in terms of miles. That is if you have a bigger charger too!

But as others have pointed out, the necessity for the faster charger decreases for most people as the battery gets larger. I suspect that if battery advances outstrip charger technology, high speed onboard charging will be a pricey option, just because it would be more expensive (due to advances being slower than in batteries) and in low demand. Now, if charging technology advances at the same pace as batteries, they will probably get faster as batteries grow.

I agree that the need for a faster onboard charger decreases with a bigger battery. However, the need for a faster offboard DC Quick Charger increases. This is because the car starts becoming useful for more and more trips. And a longer trip with a single QC approaches the convenience of a ICEV.

Agreed. Long range cars will need to have much faster DC charging. Even Tesla is too slow for mass adoption by a public accustomed to gas stations, and not accustomed to waiting for much of anything to finish processing.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Paradoxically a small battery needs a faster charger than a big battery since you are in more need to frequent top-ups to finish trips, while a big battery has extra reserve to get you home where the car is likely to have a good 10-12 hours to sit on the charger. A battery needs to be sized for your longest trip days, while a charger needs to support your average mileage. A fair number of people get by on level 1 charging at home already.

Well said. I have been trying to explain this to people for a long time now.

I was glad I found this forum a couple of months ago, because I had never thought about how battery capacity and charge rate would be related. The speed of DC charging is somewhat overrated. With a big battery, high charge rates primarily would be of use on road trips, or in the cases of serious road warriors who drive all day for a living. And I think DC charging would still be much better suited for that. If the Leaf's battery capacity doubles, I'd be fine at the current charging rate. In fact, I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.

BUT... if you were not willing to pay that extra $$ for the occasional need or better yet; looking for an affordable way to utilize that extra plug


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2015/02/long-term-ev-views.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 14724]

I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.

BUT... if you were not willing to pay that extra $$ for the occasional need or better yet; looking for an affordable way to utilize that extra plug

I don't understand what you are saying here. I'm saying that with a double capacity battery, I'd only ever need to charge once per day. As it stands now, I need to charge twice on many days, so the extra speed comes in handy. But if I only charged at night, the overnight charge would give me all I need.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I really only got the QC package on my S for the 6.6, since I do need to charge between trips. If I had a 48kwh batter, I'd not have bothered.

BUT... if you were not willing to pay that extra $$ for the occasional need or better yet; looking for an affordable way to utilize that extra plug

I don't understand what you are saying here. I'm saying that with a double capacity battery, I'd only ever need to charge once per day. As it stands now, I need to charge twice on many days, so the extra speed comes in handy. But if I only charged at night, the overnight charge would give me all I need.

what I am saying is the future needs the variety of EVs to allow a 2 EV household. get an 85 mile EV that is smaller, cheaper whose primary use is single occupant commuting. get another EV that is bigger, longer range and more expensive for the family outings, etc.

this "one size fits all" ideology is a major major FAIL

we aint talking about another 60-70 lbs of gasoline, we are talking several hundred more lbs of battery for thousands of dollars that "might" be used a half dozen times a year. there will be a lot of people who simply are unable to do that math.

 

[Deleted member 14724]

what I am saying is the future needs the variety of EVs to allow a 2 EV household. get an 85 mile EV that is smaller, cheaper whose primary use is single occupant commuting. get another EV that is bigger, longer range and more expensive for the family outings, etc.

this "one size fits all" ideology is a major major FAIL

we aint talking about another 60-70 lbs of gasoline, we are talking several hundred more lbs of battery for thousands of dollars that "might" be used a half dozen times a year. there will be a lot of people who simply are unable to do that math.

I agree with all this. There will never be a one size fits all model, any more than such things exist in ICE vehicles. Similar to the early days of ICE vehicles, however, multiple choices will come out of high profits for early providers signaling entrepreneurs that they should enter the market with new offerings. We won't get a lot of diversity so long as EVs depend heavily on government subsidies.

 

[Levenkay]

this "one size fits all" ideology is a major major FAIL

we aint talking about another 60-70 lbs of gasoline, we are talking several hundred more lbs of battery for thousands of dollars that "might" be used a half dozen times a year. there will be a lot of people who simply are unable to do that math.

Hear, hear! (or, "Read, read!", I suppose...)

 

[surfingslovak]

The i3’s battery is another area of innovation, Munro added. Unlike conventional prismatic EV battery packs, which are constructed in a sandwich fashion, the i3’s cells are designed to be wrapped into an arrangement of multiple modules. The “wrapped” configuration makes the battery pack faster and cheaper to manufacture. It also enables individual modules to be easily pulled from the pack and replaced if a cell is damaged.

”We’ve torn apart at least 15 different batteries for electric vehicles and plug-ins, and this one is totally different,” Munro said. “It’s light years ahead of everyone else’s from a cost standpoint.” Munro declined to discuss what the estimated cost-per-kilowatt hour might be, however.”

Click to open

 

[eloder]

Why, what is GMs approach for replacing batteries?

Not needing to replace them due to limiting the depth of discharge and liquid cooling of the batteries (and they may be more rugged due to construction with ceramic separator).

Just about every other EV out there (not Leaf/Mitsu) does this. Gen II smart EVs have been around longer than Leafs and degrade maybe 1-2% a year, if that, and Gen III extended warranty program replaces batteries once they hit 80% capacity and lasts for 10 years.

I like Leaf for mass-producing the first consumer EV, but I hate Nissan for making people believe EV batteries degrade exactly like cellphone batteries.

 

[minispeed]

Came to this post a little late so maybe someone else mentioned it already.

We can't get bent out of shape about this price now since every single i3 on the road now is still under warrantee so who are they going to sell this to? Collision shops are the only customer I can think of.

They have invested a lot in this battery, they provide replacement batteries through the parts division to support their customers and to make a profit. I would imagine that price is also an out the door at the dealer price, no freight on top. It's not exactly cheap to ship those. BMW also probably doesn't want to sell these batteries to non i3 owners.

All automakers do this. In the first few years of any new model the auto maker has a monopoly on car parts since the aftermarket hasn't had time to catch up. Headlights, fenders, bumpers etc... they'll get cheaper as the car gets older. I remember when HID lights first came out, $1500 for 1 single BMW headlight sold as a package, full lights with bulb and ballast pre installed and it was the only way to get it. I was at BMW parts then and we got a ton of old bulbs and ballasts from the wrecked cars, all the parts guys had xenon lights in their cars (mostly Hondas and my classic mini with xenon) before there was a single aftermarket kit out there.

I just read a post in our local paper about a person who thinks their mini cooper s was a lemon and the cost for a new engine was $10,500 so this battery cost isn't that much higher. Only thing is no one ever asks about the replacement engine cost when buying a car.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Only thing is no one ever asks about the replacement engine cost when buying a car.

Well, that's because an engine is expected to last the life the of car. I know we all wish/hope that these batteries will last, but no one knows yet. Unfortunately many of the early Leaf batteries didn't even come close, and were useless after a few hot summers. In the long run, with a proper solution, the batteries will last the life of the car. In these still early days, we're all just learning.

Regarding said solution, I'm not one to dictate a particular solution. I don't care whether the car has TMS or the battery chemistry is tweaked to be much more resilient. I just care about the end result. I suspect in the near term we will have cars both with TMS (Tesla, Chevy, Ford, etc) and without (Nissan, VW, Mitsubishi, etc).

 

[TomT]

In all the years I have been driving and with all the cars I have owned, I have yet had to replace or overhaul an engine... The worst I have ever had to do was a valve job on a 4 banger many years ago at about 200K...

Only thing is no one ever asks about the replacement engine cost when buying a car.

 

[tkdbrusco]

In all the years I have been driving and with all the cars I have owned, I have yet had to replace or overhaul an engine... The worst I have ever had to do was a valve job on a 4 banger many years ago at about 200K...

Only thing is no one ever asks about the replacement engine cost when buying a car.

Yep same here. Never had to replace an engine. Transmission once. I don't think anyone buying a new car ever considers a replacement engine because they assume that with proper maintenance they can get 200K+ out of it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have not replaced an engine either but why is that? simply because I get rid of it before that time happens just like most of us...

 

[minispeed]

I have not replaced an engine either but why is that? simply because I get rid of it before that time happens just like most of us...

Well said

Go look at used adds for 90s VW's or Honda civics. There are many of them out there on a second engine or even third.