Range & Refueling needs for a trip EV

[mkjayakumar]

Sorry I 100% disagree. I do demand something that is ABSOLUTELY needed.

What if you have a range of 400 miles EPA that drops to 300 miles during cold weather ?

Do you still need TMS ? Not at all. Because that is exactly what happens to a ICE car anyway.

 

[CRLeafSL]

Sorry I 100% disagree. I do demand something that is ABSOLUTELY needed.

What if you have a range of 400 miles EPA that drops to 300 miles during cold weather ?

Do you still need TMS ? Not at all. Because that is exactly what happens to a ICE car anyway.

I would say Yes you do. Same scenario 400 miles EPA drops to 300 with no TMS during cold weather. Now I know TPS takes power, I'll still take it. 400 miles could be 325 to 340 even with having to Power a TMS. Still better than without. Also your ICE comparison isn't very good since ICE motors heat up even in the cold. So should your batteries. Also another benefit of having a TMS is you could Quick Charge alot more without negative effects because you would be controlling the temp of the battery. Elon Musk even said that the Nissan Leaf battery is actually better than the battery he is using in the Model S, if it was Liquid cooled. He even said it was a mistake NOT to control the temp of the battery. I tend to believe him over Nissan. I still say Yes it's needed.

 

[mctom987]

Sorry I 100% disagree. I do demand something that is ABSOLUTELY needed.

What if you have a range of 400 miles EPA that drops to 300 miles during cold weather ?

Do you still need TMS ? Not at all. Because that is exactly what happens to a ICE car anyway.

I would say Yes you do. Same scenario 400 miles EPA drops to 300 with no TMS during cold weather. Now I know TPS takes power, I'll still take it. 400 miles could be 325 to 340 even with having to Power a TMS. Still better than without. Also your ICE comparison isn't very good since ICE motors heat up even in the cold. So should your batteries. Also another benefit of having a TMS is you could Quick Charge alot more without negative effects because you would be controlling the temp of the battery. Elon Musk even said that the Nissan Leaf battery is actually better than the battery he is using in the Model S, if it was Liquid cooled. He even said it was a mistake NOT to control the temp of the battery. I tend to believe him over Nissan. I still say Yes it's needed.

Honest question: Do you drive 15MPH to get 300mi range in your Leaf?

 

[CRLeafSL]

Honest answer no I don't drive 15 mph to get 300 miles range out of my leaf. I shouldn't have to for a $25,000-$30,000 car. This isn't a golf cart. It's a car so if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive it as far as I could an ICE counterpart that costs the same which I can in my gas car. That's why I'm saying battery technology needs to advance very rapidly.

 

[mctom987]

I make similar complaints to ICE cars. The only difference is there is no advancement needed. Tuning an engine for 15:1 compression can boost power by 200%!

Why does a 600cc motorcycle engine output more power than a 2.4L engine?

I definitely agree that battery tech needs to advance. But, the more pressing matter is the fact that companies don't do what's best for the environment. There's no money in that. They do what's best for the company; selling stuff.

Why doesn't the Leaf have a 48kWh battery? Why not 100kWh? It's profit margins. Nissan could have easily engineered a 100kWh battery into the leaf. It would have added 1200lbs, but could easily achieve 300mi+ range. The problem is the costs associated with having a 24kWh design, and a 100kWh design, and volume of sale for each.

Battery tech is certainly one challenge that needs to be overcome for EVs to proliferate the market as much as ICE has, but it's certainly not the only issue.

FWIW: That 100kWh battery pack would probably cost Nissan ~$5000 to manufacture.

Edit: the 24kWh pack contains about 4.4 pounds of Lithium. At $4500/ton, that comes out to $10 in Lithium. This is just an estimate of Lithium content, but it's not off by orders of magnitude, just highlighting the feasibility of a $5000 manufacturing cost.

 

[Levenkay]

Edit: the 24kWh pack contains about 4.4 pounds of Lithium. At $4500/ton, that comes out to $10 in Lithium. This is just an estimate of Lithium content, but it's not off by orders of magnitude, just highlighting the feasibility of a $5000 manufacturing cost.

This is like weighing the paint on a Ferrari to prove that the car ought to cost only a couple grand to build.

 

[mctom987]

Edit: the 24kWh pack contains about 4.4 pounds of Lithium. At $4500/ton, that comes out to $10 in Lithium. This is just an estimate of Lithium content, but it's not off by orders of magnitude, just highlighting the feasibility of a $5000 manufacturing cost.

This is like weighing the paint on a Ferrari to prove that the car ought to cost only a couple grand to build.

I have absolutely no doubt that it does. But you're also discounting the design costs, facility costs, crash testing, dealer profits, and much more.
Surely it doesn't cost Ferrari $50,000 to paint a car. The paint probably cost them <$1.

This is just furthering the point I was trying to prove. Businesses make money. They don't want what's best for the environment, or even what's best for the customer. They want what the customer will pay for. There are also lots of non-building costs that have to be paid for. Like the website. Someone has to design it.

Just because something costs $10 to build doesn't mean it's worth $10.

 

[davidcary]

If you really believe Nissan could build a 100kwh battery for $5000, then why wouldn't they make a Model S competitor. They could make money selling it for $40k and capture 50% market share of all cars in the US. That would make them a lot of money.

I think the paint <$1 is pure hyperbole.

Sure manufacturing costs are sometimes shockingly low but not that low...

 

[2k1Toaster]

Honest answer no I don't drive 15 mph to get 300 miles range out of my leaf. I shouldn't have to for a $25,000-$30,000 car. This isn't a golf cart. It's a car so if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive it as far as I could an ICE counterpart that costs the same which I can in my gas car. That's why I'm saying battery technology needs to advance very rapidly.

$25K to $30K for a car is a steal... Exactly what I expect from an econo-box.

As of last year, the average price for a car was $31.5K. Golf carts are $10K up to past $50K. So you are buying an average priced car, or a higher end golf cart.

No reason to keep shouting that you think the Leaf is expensive. It is very reasonably priced and a third of the cost of some of the other vehicles in our fleet.

 

[GRA]

Honest answer no I don't drive 15 mph to get 300 miles range out of my leaf. I shouldn't have to for a $25,000-$30,000 car. This isn't a golf cart. It's a car so if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive it as far as I could an ICE counterpart that costs the same which I can in my gas car. That's why I'm saying battery technology needs to advance very rapidly.

$25K to $30K for a car is a steal... Exactly what I expect from an econo-box.

As of last year, the average price for a car was $31.5K. Golf carts are $10K up to past $50K. So you are buying an average priced car, or a higher end golf cart.

No reason to keep shouting that you think the Leaf is expensive. It is very reasonably priced and a third of the cost of some of the other vehicles in our fleet.

OK, I'll bite: How many drivers do you have for your fleet?

 

[2k1Toaster]

Honest answer no I don't drive 15 mph to get 300 miles range out of my leaf. I shouldn't have to for a $25,000-$30,000 car. This isn't a golf cart. It's a car so if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive it as far as I could an ICE counterpart that costs the same which I can in my gas car. That's why I'm saying battery technology needs to advance very rapidly.

$25K to $30K for a car is a steal... Exactly what I expect from an econo-box.

As of last year, the average price for a car was $31.5K. Golf carts are $10K up to past $50K. So you are buying an average priced car, or a higher end golf cart.

No reason to keep shouting that you think the Leaf is expensive. It is very reasonably priced and a third of the cost of some of the other vehicles in our fleet.

OK, I'll bite: How many drivers do you have for your fleet?

Generally 3.

 

[evnow]

Honest answer no I don't drive 15 mph to get 300 miles range out of my leaf. I shouldn't have to for a $25,000-$30,000 car. This isn't a golf cart. It's a car so if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive it as far as I could an ICE counterpart that costs the same which I can in my gas car. That's why I'm saying battery technology needs to advance very rapidly.

That is like saying "if I'm paying that much for a car I should be able to drive with as little emissions as an EV counterpart that costs the same. That's why I'm saying ICE technology needs to advance very rapidly."

Zero emissions is a feature that doesn't come free.

 

[GRA]

$25K to $30K for a car is a steal... Exactly what I expect from an econo-box.

As of last year, the average price for a car was $31.5K. Golf carts are $10K up to past $50K. So you are buying an average priced car, or a higher end golf cart.

No reason to keep shouting that you think the Leaf is expensive. It is very reasonably priced and a third of the cost of some of the other vehicles in our fleet.

OK, I'll bite: How many drivers do you have for your fleet?

Generally 3.

Perhaps some pruning is in order?

 

[2k1Toaster]

Perhaps some pruning is in order?

Why? It is nice to choose what car you want to drive. Some get driven more often than others. They all have their reasons for being. The Prius and Leaf are the 2 main vehicles essentially. Cheap to own and operate and when people smack them with shopping carts, it doesn't hurt as bad. And when others need a car for a bit for whatever reason, we have them available to give out. Leaf has been in the shop for just over a month now getting a new door and bumper because some yahoos scraped and dented it. Glad we have a pool of cars to drive and not have to worry about rentals or bumming rides. We have no public transport here. (Well the buses run 10 routes across the entire city, once an hour).

I'm actively looking for a couple other vehicles to add too. We did just acquire a new-ish Jeep SUV as a gift but that has sat parked in the garage because nobody wants to drive a Jeep... Reminds me I should probably start it up one of these days.

 

[CRLeafSL]

How many of the other cars in your fleet get 70 to 80 miles to a tank of gas? Exactly my point. Our Ice car that my wife drives was right around $22,000 out the door cost. Brand new car with about 300 miles on it at delivery since we opted to have them drive it from another dealer since we wanted a particular trim level in particular colors. That $22,000 car can travel roughly 350 miles to a tank of gas. My $25,000 to $30,000 Leaf can only get 70 miles to a charge? Pathetic is putting it politely. I still think the Leaf is way overpriced for the EXTREME limited range the vehicle offers.

 

[johnrhansen]

How many of the other cars in your fleet get 70 to 80 miles to a tank of gas? Exactly my point. Our Ice car that my wife drives was right around $22,000 out the door cost. Brand new car with about 300 miles on it at delivery since we opted to have them drive it from another dealer since we wanted a particular trim level in particular colors. That $22,000 car can travel roughly 350 miles to a tank of gas. My $25,000 to $30,000 Leaf can only get 70 miles to a charge? Pathetic is putting it politely. I still think the Leaf is way overpriced for the EXTREME limited range the vehicle offers.

People always focus on the negative. Worry about low range when 90 percent of the time, 75 miles is plenty. How about the positives? I pay 2.5 cents per mile to drive my leaf vs at least 6 times that for an ice car. My leaf is smooth, roomy, quiet and comfortable. I love it. Yeah it costs more, but it's a better car, and most of the extra money I paid I will get back in fuel savings.

 

[GRA]

Perhaps some pruning is in order?

Why? It is nice to choose what car you want to drive. Some get driven more often than others. They all have their reasons for being. The Prius and Leaf are the 2 main vehicles essentially. Cheap to own and operate and when people smack them with shopping carts, it doesn't hurt as bad. And when others need a car for a bit for whatever reason, we have them available to give out. Leaf has been in the shop for just over a month now getting a new door and bumper because some yahoos scraped and dented it. Glad we have a pool of cars to drive and not have to worry about rentals or bumming rides. We have no public transport here. (Well the buses run 10 routes across the entire city, once an hour).

I'm actively looking for a couple other vehicles to add too. We did just acquire a new-ish Jeep SUV as a gift but that has sat parked in the garage because nobody wants to drive a Jeep... Reminds me I should probably start it up one of these days.

Your money is yours to do with however you wish, but I'd hate to be paying insurance on all those cars if most of them are getting little use. And why do you need to keep cars in your fleet just to loan to other people? If my friends tried to freeload off me to that extent, they wouldn't stay my friends. If they need a car, let them buy one of your extras, or rent (I'm not talking about an occasional emergency need, here). Well, as I said above, it's your money.

 

[davidcary]

Of course in some areas of the country, the added insurance cost can be as low as $100 a year for an additional car. What would that be, 1 day of increased housing expense by living in the SF bay area? Or 2 weeks of increased electric bills. Not at all trying to be hostile but just making a point. The majority of the US thinks living in the Bay area is not worth the money.

3 cars for 2 drivers is far from excessive - I mean that is what we are talking about right? We are thinking of adding to our fleet also. We have a Leaf and an Accord. The ideal garage would probably be 2 Leafs and a ICE minivan. Or would it be a Tesla, a Leaf and a pickup truck?

 

[johnrhansen]

It cost me a thousand a year to keep my truck. I kept it 10 months after I commissioned my leaf. I drove it 10 times. That means with maintenance every time I used the truck, it cost me about a hundred bucks. Plus I had to look at tye thing all that time. Plus it went down in value in that time. I could have rented for half that.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Your money is yours to do with however you wish, but I'd hate to be paying insurance on all those cars if most of them are getting little use. And why do you need to keep cars in your fleet just to loan to other people? If my friends tried to freeload off me to that extent, they wouldn't stay my friends. If they need a car, let them buy one of your extras, or rent (I'm not talking about an occasional emergency need, here). Well, as I said above, it's your money.

You can have insurance policies where the car is fully covered all the time, but you just have to tell them when you are going to drive each car. The insurance goes from almost nothing to "normal" for the day that vehicle is being driven. So the sports cars get that coverage and the rest are just normal full coverage. And in my world, if you have the means, you should help others that don't. I don't see them as "freeloaders".

Drove the Honda Accord in the morning, DeLorean this-afternoon to go get some California Pizza Kitchen lunch, and in the Prius now until tomorrow morning.