Purchased a used LEAF :(

[bwatl]

I previously leased a 2013 SV which I turned back in upon conclusion of the lease about a year ago. I recently have been looking for another one and I ended up purchasing a 2013 SL with 10,500 (Certified Pre-Owned) from a dealer in Alabama. The car was originally in Oklahoma.

Unfortunately, I was not able to get Leaf Spy working prior to purchase yesterday. The cluster was showing no capacity loss, but soon after leaving the dealer I observed that there's some definite degradation with the battery. I ran the car all the way to "turtle mode", which happened at 72 miles while driving extremely gently. In my previous leased Leaf, I got 108 miles and had not hit turtle mode using similar driving habits (approximately 4.4 m/kw in both cases) and with similar outdoor temps (70'ish degrees). Once the cold hits, the current capacity will likely not be enough to make the 60 mile round trip commute based off my experience with my previous Leaf. Also, after running it down to turtle mode, I plugged it in with no charge timers set. When I got in the car today, the charge level was only at 56%. I'm not sure when it stopped, but it continued to 100% after I unplugged it and plugged it back in. That is very distressing. So I get that in all likelihood, I just screwed myself royally, but I still want to ask what my options are?


I finally got Leaf Spy working today.

Bat Sts: AHr=56.80
SOH=86% 511.5V
Hx=83.56%
odo=10,798 mi
2 QCs & 1799 L1/L2s

Looks like most of the cells are showing shunts, but I've only checked when it was close to full charge. Admittedly I don't understand all of the data.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Others can help with the cell graphs. Looks like you have a barely-12-bar Leaf, unless the BMS was reset and it's going to drop more. The charge seemed to be tapering off before it stopped at that low SOC. Maybe you have a bad onboard charger? If I were you I'd hope for a defect like that or a BMS reset that would let you return the car. Otherwise we can't really blame the dealer, although 10.5k miles miles is pretty low to be nearing a bar loss...

 

[TimLee]

... Once the cold hits, the current capacity will likely not be enough to make the 60 mile round trip commute based off my experience with my previous Leaf. Also, after running it down to turtle mode, I plugged it in with no charge timers set. When I got in the car today, the charge level was only at 56%. I'm not sure when it stopped, but it continued to 100% after I unplugged it and plugged it back in. That is very distressing. ...

First, I do not consider LEAFs with 24 kWh battery suitable for 60 mile roundtrips in the winter.
You do have the heat pump, but even with that on a very cold day the LEAF will be a 30 to 40 mile range vehicle if you want heat and defrost.

The early charging stop is very troubling.

Most everything else seems pretty normal.

Although it is possible someone may have Cleared Long Term Capacity data.

If so will be weeks before you know for sure.

 

[bwatl]

Others can help with the cell graphs. Looks like you have a barely-12-bar Leaf, unless the BMS was reset and it's going to drop more. The charge seemed to be tapering off before it stopped at that low SOC. Maybe you have a bad onboard charger? If I were you I'd hope for a defect like that or a BMS reset that would let you return the car. Otherwise we can't really blame the dealer, although 10.5k miles miles is pretty low to be nearing a bar loss...

How could I validate if the BMS had been reset?

 

[cwerdna]

Was your car in READY mode when you took those readings? I'm guessing it it wasn't since the 511.5 V pack voltage makes no sense. That's way too high (about 100+ volts too high). When the car's not in READY mode, many values will be wrong.

From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=455984#p455984, it looks like you're nearing losing your 12th CB.

FWIW, my '13 SV built 5/2013 that I bought used over a year ago still has all 12 bars and has these stats taken less than 2 hours ago.
Ahr: 57.73
SOH: 88%
Hx: 87.07%
odo: 38,067

I reach between ~250 and ~252 gids on a full charge.

When you talk about 72 vs. 108 miles, this is on the exact same route? There could be elevation changes (e.g. net elevation gain in your 72 mile drive).

When you says "4.4 m/kw", you meant to say 4.4 miles/kWh. Is that what you achieve upon resetting the trip computer and driving the 108 miles in your old car? And, you also reset it on the replacement car and achieved 4.4 miles/kWh to do 72 miles to turtle?

(kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

1 hp = ~0.746 kW and 1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh.)

 

[bwatl]

First, I do not consider LEAFs with 34 kWh battery suitable for 60 mile roundtrips in the winter.
You do have the heat pump, but even with that on a very cold day the LEAF will be a 30 to 40 mile range vehicle if you want heat and defrost.

I did two winters in Atlanta with the 2013 SV that I leased and it was never and issue. In the winter the GoM would say about 75 miles (I'd preheat the car before leaving) and I was always able to go 60 miles easily. Pretty much any other time the GoM would show 90-100 mile range and it was always pretty close.

The early charging stop is very troubling.

Most everything else seems pretty normal.

Although it is possible someone may have Cleared Long Term Capacity data.

If so will be weeks before you know for sure.

Thanks for your input. I'll call the dealer tomorrow, although I'm not very hopeful.

 

[bwatl]

This was after a 55 mile trip driven conservatively.

 

[bwatl]

Then I romped on it for 14 miles to get it back to turtle mode.

 

[cwerdna]

This was after a 55 mile trip driven conservatively.

Assuming you reset the miles/kWh dash display or the one on the nav system, how many miles/kWh did you achieve on the above trip per those displays?

 

[rosier9]

I don't know what to think about that stop in charging at 56%, hopefully a fluke.

I think everything else looks fairly typical. Doesn't look anything like a BMS reset to me, the AHr would be up around 66 had that been done... A 55 mile gentle trip with 35% soc left seems pretty good. Would have likely been able to get 80-90 miles outta that charge. What more do you expect?

 

[cwerdna]

When the charging stopped abnormally, upon putting the car to READY, was there a yellow ! triangle warning that persisted power off? If you turn on the service menu on Leaf Spy, does it show any DTCs?

The car might need a PDM service campaign applied. I think it was http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=15655.

My former leased car hit a premature charging stoppage issue ~2200 miles into leasing at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=329929#p329929. It needed NTB13-069 applied. There might've been one more PDM/OBC TSB before NTB13-098.

 

[LeftieBiker]

What more do you expect?

I assume he wasn't expecting a charging issue, and that he was hoping for something more like 12 bars than 11 - more like the 88% capacity Cwerdna and I have left (although 86% isn't that much less). He can't blame the dealer for the car having just a little more than 11 bars, but if the car isn't charging properly, and the issue is with the car, then he has has a valid reason to either return it (depending on state law) or have it fixed under warranty so it charges properly. Hopefully the PDM recall work is all it needs if it can't be returned. As for expecting 60 miles of range in Winter, if he preheats and then uses minimal heat and modest speed, it's still possible in that region, but I wouldn't want to have to commute with that car, for that distance, for more than a weeks...

This, BTW, is exactly why I tell people who look to buy a used Leaf without LeafSpy to assume one less capacity bar than is showing, especially when 12 are showing. There are very few 2013 Leafs now with near 100% capacity left.

 

[bwatl]

This was after a 55 mile trip driven conservatively.

Assuming you reset the miles/kWh dash display or the one on the nav system, how many miles/kWh did you achieve on the above trip per those displays?

4.9 on that trip. I was a borderline nuisance on the roadway at times. Prior to resetting for that trip, my average was 4.4, which included the 135 mile trip from Alabama.

 

[bwatl]

I don't know what to think about that stop in charging at 56%, hopefully a fluke.

I think everything else looks fairly typical. Doesn't look anything like a BMS reset to me, the AHr would be up around 66 had that been done... A 55 mile gentle trip with 35% soc left seems pretty good. Would have likely been able to get 80-90 miles outta that charge. What more do you expect?

No way it would have gone 80. Conditions couldn't be any better than they were the previous day, and it went into turtle mode at 72 miles. Mind you I was a complete nuisance on the freeway going below the speed limits. It falls off very quickly at the lower percentages. I was hoping for an experience like I had with my previous lease, which was markedly better even with 24k miles on the car than this one is at 10k miles.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Usually by now one of us would have asked this, but we didn't, that I see. What is the build date on the driver's side door jamb sticker? It's not likely to be an early (Jan-March) build with 12 bars showing, but maybe it got baked on a dealer lot before being sold.

 

[TimLee]

...
I did two winters in Atlanta with the 2013 SV that I leased and it was never and issue. In the winter the GoM would say about 75 miles (I'd preheat the car before leaving) and I was always able to go 60 miles easily. Pretty much any other time the GoM would show 90-100 mile range and it was always pretty close.

But that was the first two years of a new LEAF.
Once you are close to losing first capacity bar and have probably lost 15% to 18% capacity then range impact becomes a lot more obvious.

Experience the first two years is not very relevant.

Not sure what in LEAF Spy Pro would prove BMS reset.
Does seem like SOH would be higher if reset recently.

The charger stop could be a glitch.
I have new capacity warranty pack.
Had DCQC at dealer trip once in the six or so times I have used it since pack was replaced.

No apparent cause.
Has not recurred.

 

[rosier9]

Maybe you wouldn't get 30 miles back out of that 35% capacity. I typically see 1 mile per % remaining from about 40% and below, that's my only reference. That's on an 89% capacity 2013...

I understand the charging glitch would be an issue if it persists.
What I don't see is a BMS reset or any battery issue (assuming the charging issue was one of, rather than persistent) that would require a dealer to accept return of the car.

Hopefully by actually driving this car, rather than it sitting on a dealer lot, the battery livens up and gives you the experience you remember.

 

[bwatl]

Maybe you wouldn't get 30 miles back out of that 35% capacity. I typically see 1 mile per % remaining from about 40% and below, that's my only reference. That's on an 89% capacity 2013...

I understand the charging glitch would be an issue if it persists.
What I don't see is a BMS reset or any battery issue (assuming the charging issue was one of, rather than persistent) that would require a dealer to accept return of the car.

Hopefully by actually driving this car, rather than it sitting on a dealer lot, the battery livens up and gives you the experience you remember.

No issues with charging this morning, so hopefully that was an isolated event. Cluster is showing 66% after the first half of the trip while averaging 5.1 miles/kWh. It will be close when it's colder. I need to find somewhere to add a slight charge during the day. The dealer didn't have the L1 charger so they are ordering one. I know the car has been sitting for a while which certainly doesn't help battery performance. Hopefully it does improve a bit now that it's being driven daily. I need to get some L1 charging as well as it seems to do better with the batteries. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You should check the wiring to your L-2 charging station, to make sure the charging glitch wasn't a circuit fault. What make and model is the station itself?

 

[bwatl]

You should check the wiring to your L-2 charging station, to make sure the charging glitch wasn't a circuit fault. What make and model is the station itself?

Clipper Creek CS-60 Never had any issues with it and it wasn't showing a fault, but I'll check it out when I get home.