Poll : Would you buy Leaf with a Range Extender option ?

[philipscoggins]

Agreed, my range extender would be a slightly larger battery pack (probably just enough to get true 100 miles at freeway speeds with climate control on)

Philip

 

[Shaka]

... although more range would be nice. And more utility. What I want: a Tesla X!

Yes, my LEAF range extender was a Toyota Rav4 EV; about 140 miles at moderate freeway speeds, and limited issues with cold weather with a climate controlled battery. The worst part is the heater is the same as the LEAF, so it sucks the power!

Yes but Tony, it says you live in gorgeous SD! Here in Ohio we've had over a foot of snow in less than a week. In some parts I have family/friends who have a measurable 14" in their yards right now. We have about 6-8" in my hard right now, but obviously my driveway is plowed. Right now the Rav4-EV is really a "Rav2-EV" ... only 2WD option. If Toyota made a Rav4-EV that was AWD and 100% BEV style, for under $40k, we would have gotten that instead of the LEAF for sure!

The price of the Tesla X is going to probably make it hard for us to swallow ... we need two cars in our house. We need a car that is AWD for the winter time on those REALLY bad days -- earlier this week we had to drive my VW the roads were that bad -- could we have made it with FWD? Sure .. but it was easier and safer and more enjoyable in an AWD vehicle...

Check these guys out: http://ampelectricvehicles.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; --- makes me want one of their ML Mercedes... but again I am sure that is $$$!!

 

[mikeEmike]

I'd go for an extra battery pack on a small trailer that could be towed as a range extender. If it could be used as backup power for my house when not being towed, even better (like LEAF-to-Home). The assumption here is that it's not too expensive as the OP mentioned. Unfortunately, that assumption here won't be true in this case for a while.

 

[WetEV]

I answered "probably not". However, if I owned only a Leaf, I would be more likely to want a range extender option. I do have the option of "Just take the Prius".

 

[edatoakrun]

Yes I certainly would, if it were engineered correctly, meeting all three of the objectives below.

Unfortunately, IMO none of the PHEVs or BEVxs currently planned for production come even close to meeting these goals.

...In fact, a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. (You would start the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept a charge.) Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extension for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient.

I think this could be integrated into the design of BEVs (and maybe even as a portable unit, and available for rent, as many have fantasized) at lower cost, and lower weight, than the huge battery packs some BEV manufactures seem to think are advisable...

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 am

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[gbarry42]

It's a tough question. A lot depends on alternatives. If I couldn't get a BEV anywhere, what would I do? Principles have a lot to do with it. I'm rather glad there's no active temperature management in the LEAF; it yields the simplest design. It's unfortunate that doesn't work for everyone. I just can't get on board with the idea of carrying an ICE around all the time and hardly ever using it. BMW seems to understand--their ICE is a 2-cylinder. They are shooting for a minimum amount of added hardware.

 

[Herm]

The Mahle 30kW range extender is 13" tall.. will it fit beneath the trunk of the Leaf?.. what is the clearance back there?

http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/C1257126002DFC22/vwContentByUNID/A708E950D66EA44BC12578860027969B/$FILE/Range_Extender_Engine_EN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

I'd like to see a vehicle, not necessarily the Leaf, but something similar that has a range extender that runs from a canister of propane. I can store those in my garage without ever worrying about it going bad. It also burns much cleaner and doesn't gum up an engine if it isn't used for a long time. i would also want it to have the smallest, quietest, and most fuel-efficient I.C.E. possible. A 2 cylinder would be fine with me, or heck even a 1 cylinder. Even if that meant top speed in range-extending mode was 55 mph.

 

[Reddy]

Wait, I voted wrong and said "never". Actually, I bought the Leaf with two range extenders, one CHAdeMO and one J1772 plug. :lol:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Check these guys out: http://ampelectricvehicles.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; --- makes me want one of their ML Mercedes... but again I am sure that is $$$!!

I checked those out, and they are not AWD. The specs on the Mercedes aren't as good as the Tesla drivetrain in my Rav4:

Final assembly location: Loveland, OH. (Rav4 EV- Woodstock, Ontario)
Range: Approximately 100 miles per charge (Rav4 EV- 142 miles at 65mph)
Battery System: Custom lithium iron phosphate batteries; safe, non-combustible, and UL and CE certified (Rav4 EV- LiFePO4 batteries are great, but FAR lower energy density than Tesla pack in Rav4)
Total battery capacity: 40 kWh (Rav4 EV- 50kWh, 41.8kWh usable... Temperature Management System)
Motors: Two rear-mounted Remy AC motors; 164 kW/220 horsepower and 640 Nm/472 lb-ft of torque (Rav4 EV- one motor, but I question this Mercedes hp output with 10 second 0-60mph... the usual fishy snake oil)
Transmission: None; electric motors are direct drive (Rav4 EV- same)
Estimated cost to fully charge vehicle: $3 to $4 (based on nationwide average cost of $0.10 per kWh) (Rav4 EV- yada, yada)
Acceleration: 0 to 60 mph in under 10 seconds (Rav4 EV- 7 seconds... yep!)
Speed: Electronically controlled 90 mph top speed (Rav4 EV- 104mph)
Passenger room and cargo room: Unchanged; no compromise from gas model (Rav4 EV- same)
All the original factory accessories maintained (Rav4 EV- enhanced features )

 

[essaunders]

The Mahle 30kW range extender is 13" tall.. will it fit beneath the trunk of the Leaf?.. what is the clearance back there?

http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/C1257126002DFC22/vwContentByUNID/A708E950D66EA44BC12578860027969B/$FILE/Range_Extender_Engine_EN.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Put that in a tray that fits in the empty space behind the bumper and swings down and out under the rear bumper for service or fueling. Tony probably has the best idea of how much space is available down there...

I think that for a true 'backup' range extender than fuel stability is more important than fuel efficiency or storage density. As such, I'd favor a propane or CNG solution. Also, a 'backup' is best if it is small and always on the car.
If the use was to be more often as a long trip enabler, then gas might be more useful and a larger fuel and power capacity would be desirable.

This kind of discussion makes me appreciate the challenges that PHEV (EREV) engineers have. Also, it emphasizes how important the design brief / knowing the end use is...

 

[adric22]

This kind of discussion makes me appreciate the challenges that PHEV (EREV) engineers have. Also, it emphasizes how important the design brief / knowing the end use is...

Indeed.. There are many different ways to look at a range extender. With the Chevy Volt, the engine is large enough and designed to handle day-to-day driving of the car. You could essentially never charge the car and drive it as a gasoline vehicle 100% of the time, if you wanted to. I suppose that is one of the selling points of the car.

I think the application in the Leaf would be somewhat different. The main thing being that the car has more range on EV mode. And having that backup generator would allow people to more freely use ALL of that range without worrying about being stuck. I suspect the range extender would be used far less often on the Leaf than it would be in the Volt. I had actually hoped when we bought our Volt last year that we'd almost never put gas in it. However, that has not panned out. In fact, it seems we're putting gas in it at least once per month. The I.C.E. is used almost every day since my wife goes past the EV range by about 2 miles every day, at minimum. The weekend trips even more so. But when I look at the data for our Volt, it occurs to me that if the Volt had about 20-30 miles more range on battery, the I.C.E. would probably not get used for months at a time.

 

[SalisburySam]

So far, the LEAF as is meets most of my local needs. However, like most other posters, my desire for a range extender depends entirely on the definition of that range extender. I would absolute want one, and so voted, but I would want it to meet one of the following criteria, in order of desirability:

• 1- option for greater capacity battery (probably this is not a retrofit but a new LEAF)
  2- battery trailer, easily connected/disconnected (some retrofit but at least do-able on existing LEAF)
  3- tiny, tiny generator, and CNG appears cheaper than propane in my area (major retrofit but do-able, or new LEAF)

Failing any of the above, my REx is to leave the LEAF at home and take my ICE vehicle.

 

[Herm]

It would be nice if Nissan offered something like the Mahle, dealer installed, perhaps a bit lighter (and 20kW) so it could be easily installed/removed/stored by the owner with a specialized cradle on wheels, as an extra cost option add 120V and 240V outlets to it, inverter driven. Would you pay $4k for this at the dealership?

The EPA would probably demand you put a catalytic converter on it.

 

[Deleted member 770]

The poll needs to have an option of "I'd rent one from Nissan when I needed it". Based on Ingineer's experience, I think a range extender (assuming you mean a trailer rather than making a Volt-like LEAF with an onboard range extender) would be prohibitively expensive for most.

For the < 10 times a year I'd need it, I'd rent one from Nissan in a heartbeat...

 

[TRONZ]

I am going to go with Bancon on this one.

"That would be a different car." - FB

 

[evnow]

I am going to go with Bancon on this one.

"That would be a different car." - FB

If BMW can offer one, so can Nissan.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Seriously! This again. Buy a Volt.

 

[TRONZ]

Seriously! This again. Buy a Volt.

EXACTLY!

 

[eclecticflower]

Seriously! This again. Buy a Volt.

+1!!!! :lol: