Petition for Tesla battery packs for LEAF's

[Zythryn]

Take the active cooling away and package the TSLA cells in a leaf pack.

They are VERY much more fragile used in this way!

What an odd suggestion? The battery pack would also be worse if you didn't include Lithium :lol:

As for Tesla making battery packs for the Leaf, it won't happen anytime soon, if ever.
Tesla has is selling as many cars and PowerWall/PowerPacks as they have battery packs.

Perhaps when they open a second gigafactory?

 

[edatoakrun]

With the exception of flammability - which I consider to be statistically a non-issue...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc9LMY4UcPc

 

[cwerdna]

WOW! The Tesla trolls really came out of hiding on this one! :lol: I bet there's even some liberal hurt Mirai owners in this thread cursing now that Toyota is going back to EVs and the Hydrogen dreams are all over :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sweet dreams!!

P.S. My Tesla based Rav4 just finished an AWESOME drive back from Julian,CA in the freezing cold and I have 48k miles, tremendous amounts of QC'ing on it, tow all the time and only have 8 miles of degradation from the 152 original!

Yeah.. those (Panasonic/Tesla/Medtronic designed) batteries are soooooo bad :roll:

Meanwhile my 2012 Leaf sits in the driveway with only 1/2 the millage and almost 4 bars now :roll:

FWIW, I'm not a Tesla troll. The Rav4 EV clearly has far superior range due to its battery capacity over the Leaf, but good luck w/the drive units and other Tesla supplied components (e.g. heater and DC to DC converter). It's unfortunate the Rav4 EV is such an unreliable vehicle, which isn't typical of Toyotas.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The premise of this thread is amusing, if not flat out telling of the mind set of an alarmingly large number of people. Tesla is a private company, they are interested in doing things that inure to the benefit of shareholders either in something that is profitable in the near term or supportive of their strategy and vision. Building a better battery pack for their competitors vehicles is neither, and wouldn't be undertaken just because some number of people want it. They aren't a democracy.

 

[kieranmullen]

Yes one would say that but at the same time they have released patents for many of their technologies.

The premise of this thread is amusing, if not flat out telling of the mind set of an alarmingly large number of people. Tesla is a private company, they are interested in doing things that inure to the benefit of shareholders either in something that is profitable in the near term or supportive of their strategy and vision. Building a better battery pack for their competitors vehicles is neither, and wouldn't be undertaken just because some number of people want it. They aren't a democracy.

 

[arnis]

And I'm very grateful for that. Tesla did patent many basic technologies for EV-s. And released them.
This is important for our future so car companies will not do what Apple is doing - patent everything
they can think about and never let others use that. Sometimes they don't use that themselves.
Magsafe connector is an example - how the f**k can they patent magnet :evil:

Tesla will not make batteries for Nissan because Nissan doesn't want those.
They have totally different approach. We can see it in everything Nissan does: be it connectivity,
upgrade-ability, customer service, customer feedback, looks, performance... etc.

 

[kieranmullen]

With the number of leafs out there it would be good business for a third party company to make after market upgrades. Not Nissan and it probably will not be Nissan, but someone will do it.

And I'm very grateful for that. Tesla did patent many basic technologies for EV-s. And released them.
This is important for our future so car companies will not do what Apple is doing - patent everything
they can think about and never let others use that. Sometimes they don't use that themselves.
Magsafe connector is an example - how the f**k can they patent magnet :evil:

Tesla will not make batteries for Nissan because Nissan doesn't want those.
They have totally different approach. We can see it in everything Nissan does: be it connectivity,
upgrade-ability, customer service, customer feedback, looks, performance... etc.

 

[GlennD]

It requires 650 to 750 degrees surface temperature to ignite coolant so it was highly unlikely in your scenario...

When my Mercedes B was in an accident coolant leaked out of the Tesla battery pack. Fortunately it did not catch on fire but I was worried about that happening. It was still totaled due to the repair expense but if it had caught on fire it would be for sure totaled.

[/qu
I am just a user. You hear about Tesla's catching on fire. My Mercedes had a Tesla Drive train. It is now totaled but I was worried about fire.

 

[cwerdna]

With the number of leafs out there it would be good business for a third party company to make after market upgrades. Not Nissan and it probably will not be Nissan, but someone will do it.

It's not that many. http://insideevs.com/renault-nissan-alliance-passes-350000-evs-sold-all-time/ refers to about 237K Leafs worldwide since Leaf first went on sale. http://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/01/nissan-leaf-100k-sales-us-report/ mentions 100K units in the US cumulative.

In comparison, per http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/11/october-2016-usa-vehicle-sales-by-model-rankings.html, it takes about 4 months for Ford to sell 250K F-Series trucks in the US only.

The resale value on Leafs is terrible. The overall demand for EVs in the US is low (BEVs has a 0.4% take rate in the US in Oct 2016 per http://www.hybridcars.com/october-2016-dashboard/). From MNL, not many people have paid $5,500 + tax and labor to install a new pack. The potential customer base is likely going to be too small for any company to justify producing cells and/or packs for Leafs given the engineering, development, tooling, validation, certification (including crash safety), etc. costs.

 

[JasonA]

FWIW, I'm not a Tesla troll. The Rav4 EV clearly has far superior range due to its battery capacity over the Leaf, but good luck w/the drive units and other Tesla supplied components (e.g. heater and DC to DC converter). It's unfortunate the Rav4 EV is such an unreliable vehicle, which isn't typical of Toyotas.

REALLY??? :roll:

Good luck with it huh?? My Rav (SupaRav) has had ZERO issues, been the beta test platform for Tony's CHAdeMO unit (I still have the beta unit on there) :lol: and have had zero issues except a noisy motor and replacement... which they did with no issues.

You're making it sound like the car is a junker... "Unreliable Vehicle" ?? Really??

Let's compare it to an i3/BMW EV :lol:

Besides a MS... I'll take my Rav over any other EV...

And Toyota has no issues with service.. again.. try to troll again.

 

[cwerdna]

FWIW, I'm not a Tesla troll. The Rav4 EV clearly has far superior range due to its battery capacity over the Leaf, but good luck w/the drive units and other Tesla supplied components (e.g. heater and DC to DC converter). It's unfortunate the Rav4 EV is such an unreliable vehicle, which isn't typical of Toyotas.

REALLY??? :roll:

Good luck with it huh?? My Rav (SupaRav) has had ZERO issues, been the beta test platform for Tony's CHAdeMO unit (I still have the beta unit on there) :lol: and have had zero issues except a noisy motor and replacement... which they did with no issues.

You're making it sound like the car is a junker... "Unreliable Vehicle" ?? Really??

Let's compare it to an i3/BMW EV :lol:

Look. I'm not a troll, but I used to hang out enough on myrav4ev.com to see a litany of drive unit replacements, mostly due to noise. And, the Model S has plenty of DU problems of its own, also mainly for noise. I don't have much time for "TMC" anymore, but the worst I can remember is https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1653580 on his 8th DU on his Model S. Edmunds had 3 replacements within 30K miles (noise, complete failure, then noise again, poiners at http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html). Many folks have had at least 1 DU replacement, some multiple, just like Rav4 EV folks.

Don't just look at me, look at others like http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21490#p21490 for the other common problem areas. The heater failing often takes out the DC to DC converter in the process. Take a look at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics but selecting 3 months. http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=338 was another infamous problem.

I know what pretty reliable looks like since I used to hang out on Priuschat and saw what new and relatively new Gen 2 Priuses would experience in addition to Gen 3 (2010-2015) model year, Prius c, Prius v wagon and PiP (all began w/model year 2012, IIRC). And, I've seen what Leafs would typically experience here. And, I've seen Consumer Reports reliability ratings for these The Rav4 EV is clearly inferior in reliability to all of these.

For context, http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm has a table of average problem rates by system for a given model year over a 12 month period (less for the latest model year). Priuses do well (almost always doing better than average if not well above average). 1st model year of Prius c even got http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/01/consumer-reports-says-prius-c-most-reliable/.

I doubt many Rav4 EVs will hold up as well at these: http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs. I suspect once Rav4 EV powertrain warranties and their extended warranties expire (if any), once the flawed Tesla-supplied DUs get noisy, the owner will only be able to tolerate it to a certain point before either ponying up big bucks for another short-lived (staying quiet) replacement or dumping the vehicle.

As for the BMW i3, yes the i3 REx is also very unreliable.

 

[Zythryn]

FWIW, I'm not a Tesla troll. The Rav4 EV clearly has far superior range due to its battery capacity over the Leaf, but good luck w/the drive units and other Tesla supplied components (e.g. heater and DC to DC converter). It's unfortunate the Rav4 EV is such an unreliable vehicle, which isn't typical of Toyotas.

REALLY??? :roll:

Good luck with it huh?? My Rav (SupaRav) has had ZERO issues, been the beta test platform for Tony's CHAdeMO unit (I still have the beta unit on there) :lol: and have had zero issues except a noisy motor and replacement... which they did with no issues.

You're making it sound like the car is a junker... "Unreliable Vehicle" ?? Really??

Let's compare it to an i3/BMW EV :lol:

Look. I'm not a troll, but I used to hang out enough on myrav4ev.com to see a litany of drive unit replacements, mostly due to noise. And, the Model S has plenty of DU problems of its own, also mainly for noise. I don't have much time for "TMC" anymore, but the worst I can remember is https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit-replacement-poll.29834/page-27#post-1653580 on his 8th DU on his Model S. Edmunds had 3 replacements within 30K miles (noise, complete failure, then noise again, poiners at http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html). Many folks have had at least 1 DU replacement, some multiple, just like Rav4 EV folks.

Don't just look at me, look at others like http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21490#p21490 for the other common problem areas. The heater failing often takes out the DC to DC converter in the process. Take a look at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics but selecting 3 months. http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=338 was another infamous problem.

I know what pretty reliable looks like since I used to hang out on Priuschat and saw what new and relatively new Gen 2 Priuses would experience in addition to Gen 3 (2010-2015) model year, Prius c, Prius v wagon and PiP (all began w/model year 2012, IIRC). And, I've seen what Leafs would typically experience here. And, I've seen Consumer Reports reliability ratings for these The Rav4 EV is clearly inferior in reliability to all of these.

For context, http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm has a table of average problem rates by system for a given model year over a 12 month period (less for the latest model year). Priuses do well (almost always doing better than average if not well above average). 1st model year of Prius c even got http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/01/consumer-reports-says-prius-c-most-reliable/.

I doubt many Rav4 EVs will hold up as well at these: http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs. I suspect once Rav4 EV powertrain warranties and their extended warranties expire (if any), once the flawed Tesla-supplied DUs get noisy, the owner will only be able to tolerate it to a certain point before either ponying up big bucks for another short-lived (staying quiet) replacement or dumping the vehicle.

As for the BMW i3, yes the i3 REx is also very unreliable.

You are not taking the bias of your source into account, nor the improvements Tesla has made over time.

You should well know by now, that people are far more likely to complain than compliment on an internet forum.
You can't take the extremes and make the leap to assuming that extreme is commonplace.

My 2012 had 2 DU replacements, one at 18k miles and another at 32k miles, and then none until 70k.
My 2013 had one at 20k.
My 2015 has had none, and is past 29k so far.

Yes, the rate of failure early on was high.
It has come down dramatically since then, and as the first DU won't leave warranty coverge for another 4 years, I don't see it being an issue.

Is it possible? Sure, but no more likely than the average vehicle..

 

[Durandal]

From MNL, not many people have paid $5,500 + tax and labor to install a new pack. The potential customer base is likely going to be too small for any company to justify producing cells and/or packs for Leafs given the engineering, development, tooling, validation, certification (including crash safety), etc. costs.

I would tend to agree with you on that. Since I paid $6,000 for my 2012 Leaf with 10 bars, dropping another $6k to replace the battery doesn't make much sense. I'm hoping for a warranty battery replacement before my warranty expires in October of 2017, and if so I'll get a good 7 or so years out of this Leaf. If I don't get a warranty replacement, I suspect I'll get 3-4 years assuming I can continue to reliably charge at work, then when the battery is not very useful I will likely use it as a DIY PowerWall at my home, and part out the rest of the car.

 

[cwerdna]

You are not taking the bias of your source into account, nor the improvements Tesla has made over time.

You should well know by now, that people are far more likely to complain than compliment on an internet forum.
You can't take the extremes and make the leap to assuming that extreme is commonplace.

They're not extreme. By extension, you should see a ton of similar reliability complaints here on MNL and on Priuschat (which you were active on) for similar mileage and age Leafs and Priuses. Motor/transaxle replacements on Leafs are almost unheard of. It's no 0, but VERY few have gotten them replaced here.

My 2012 had 2 DU replacements, one at 18k miles and another at 32k miles, and then none until 70k.
My 2013 had one at 20k.
My 2015 has had none, and is past 29k so far.

Yes, the rate of failure early on was high.
It has come down dramatically since then, and as the first DU won't leave warranty coverge for another 4 years, I don't see it being an issue.

I pointed to some PIA survey data and guys with 7+ DU replacements at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1809&p=24502#p24502. As for coming down dramatically, I have little time for "TMC" anymore but it does seems like it has come down, yet there still are recent complete failures I've seen reports of.

Is it possible? Sure, but no more likely than the average vehicle..

In the above thread, I also point to CR's average problem rate table.

As for "warranty coverge for another 4 years", that's not too helpful for Rav4 EV drivers. The powertrain warranty is only 5 years/60K miles. Sure, people can pay for extended warranties, but shouldn't motors be one of Tesla's core competencies?