Official Southern California Edison thread

[Valdemar]

Is net metering going away?

No, I didn't mean to imply that. But when rates are flattened, the payback times for solar can lengthen because the credits produced for solar power generated during Peak periods are reduced.

Ok, this makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

 

[evchels]

Chelsea, thanks for this update. It's the first I've seen of proposed new TOU-EV rates and proposed timing. Can you link to some source documentation in public domain?

I was on a recent call w SCE about the rate change and pulled the numbers from their pre-read deck (and implementation date from SCE folks on the call). But, all of the documents from the PUC proceeding are on the cpuc.ca.gov site. Search for proceeding #A1312015 (not linkable, sorry.)

A couple of comments: you probably want to change that upper left box to read Peak rather than Off-Peak. Also, is that Option B truly a monthly charge of $16? It's a little fuzzy on my iPad. If so, I'm pretty sure I don't have to do the math to figure out that Option A is the best choice for our solar-equipped home.

Oy, thanks- typo fixed. And yes, Option B has a $16 connection fee, though the actual rates are significantly lower. SCE estimates that the over/under on who'd benefit from either plan will be ~700kWh/mo, though I've not seen details on their usage assumptions.

it'll be interesting to see if any grandfathering is applied to current TOU-D-TEV customers with net metering and solar, who did their math based on existing rates at the time of their purchase of their PV systems.

Nope. I don't have solar, but I am a low-usage customer on the TOU-D rate now, and the new rate design isn't encouraging to me. So I asked specifically about grandfathering, but was told that wasn't going to be a possibility. I might actually end up back on the regular residential D rate.

 

[pchilds]

A 20 year grandfathering (from the date of installation,) was passed for solar PV systems (installed by 7/1/2017,) by the CPUC. I am good until 10/2030.

 

[hill]

A 20 year grandfathering (from the date of installation,) was passed for solar PV systems (installed by 7/1/2017,) by the CPUC. I am good until 10/2030.

Rest assured ... the utility WILL make sure PV becomes more & more onerous ... and more & more difficult for the prospective homeowner to justify doing an install:

http://grist.org/climate-energy/solar-panels-could-destroy-u-s-utilities-according-to-u-s-utilities/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/opinion/sunday/the-koch-attack-on-solar-energy.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"If you are using the grid and benefiting from the grid, you should pay for it," said David Owens, executive vice president of the Edison Electric Institute, the advocacy arm for the industry. "If you don't, other customers have to absorb those costs."
The institute has warned power companies that profits could erode catastrophically if current policies and market trends continue. If electricity companies delay in taking political action, the group warned in a report, "it may be too late to repair the utility business model."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-solar-kochs-20140420,0,7412286.story#ixzz30R6QtJdx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

.

 

[DaveEV]

A 20 year grandfathering (from the date of installation,) was passed for solar PV systems (installed by 7/1/2017,) by the CPUC. I am good until 10/2030.

Does that apply to all California utilities, or just SCE?

 

[pchilds]

PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E.

 

[tbleakne]

Anyone see changes to the EV rates?

Yes, SCE filed to change the whole house TOU-D-EV rate at the end of last year; it's expected to take effect ~July. The new rate design replaces the two-tier system with two different A/B rate options (customer choice), and changes the timing of the peak/off-peak periods.

My July bill does indeed show changes implemented on July 7 for Summer rates. My tariff, without any new action on my part, is TOU-DTEV-SDP-O. I believe the last few letters refer to my options allowing SCE to cut off my A/C briefly.

I cannot find any reference to changes in the TOU period timing, either on my bill or in the online Tariff Book. The dates shown in the Tariff book are May 29 for filing, Jun 1 effective. Perhaps the timing changes were not implemented. PG&E TOU periods are much less generous for solar customers, because they make it harder to get the big payoff from highly negative Onpeak solar generation. I suspect SCE realizes this, and wants to move in that direction.

My bill shows following changes. It is confusing, easy to make mistakes:

DELIVERY
On-Peak and Off-Peak same changes:
L1: .029 -> .051
L2: .236 -> .198 Down - consistent with leveling, less progressive
SuperOff-Peak:
L1, L2 No change.

GENERATION
L1: No changes for OnPeak, OffPeak, or SuperOffPeak

L2 OnPeak: .265 -> .288
L2 OffPeak: .089 -> .112
L2 SupOffPeak: .023 -> .046 Double

New Totals
L1, L2
OnPeak .316, .465
OffPeak .14, .31
SuperOffPeak .09, 09

My understanding is that the bill signed last Fall also opens the possibility for the first time to assign different prices for positive and negative flows within the same time period. My bill lists the total kWh flows in each direction for each time period, but the billing so far applies only to the NET flow for each period.

If they want EV drivers to continue to charge at night when wind prices are low and sometimes even negative and the grid is lightly loaded, they need to be careful not to drop the negative OnPeak credit price below the SuperOffPeak consume price. If they do, we will all switch to charging our cars during the daytime directly from solar, so that the kWh do not flow through the SCE meter at all.

Despite these changes, both implemented and being planned, I believe CA still has much better solar and EV incentive pricing than many other states. TX now gives each utility wide latitude on Net Metering options, including the option of not giving ANY credit for reverse flow.

At Tesla Motors Club Connect Conference in Monterey there was an interesting conference session on Net Metering and Vehicle to Grid. If IRRC, HI in particular appeared to be approaching the point on some islands where the solar generation equals the afternoon load. If this happens, they will want to create incentives to charge the EVs during the day.

 

[Boomer23]

Anyone see changes to the EV rates?

Yes, SCE filed to change the whole house TOU-D-EV rate at the end of last year; it's expected to take effect ~July. The new rate design replaces the two-tier system with two different A/B rate options (customer choice), and changes the timing of the peak/off-peak periods.

My July bill does indeed show changes implemented on July 7 for Summer rates. My tariff, without any new action on my part, is TOU-DTEV-SDP-O. I believe the last few letters refer to my options allowing SCE to cut off my A/C briefly.

.

Very interesting and useful info, tbleakne, thanks. My bill isn't due yet, but I'll know what to look for when it is available for viewing in 10 days or so.

 

[tbleakne]

A 20 year grandfathering (from the date of installation,) was passed for solar PV systems (installed by 7/1/2017,) by the CPUC. I am good until 10/2030.

References for this action, which applies to PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E:

Mar 31, 2014
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/03/31...ting-solar-arrays-rates-wont-change-20-years/

The rules for California’s next Net Metering Policy (NEM 2.0) have not yet been decided upon, but must be finalized by December 2015.

Details before vote reported above:
http://www.chadbourne.com/Changes_California_Residential_Solar_projectfinance/

Under the existing net metering program, the amount of net-metered capacity that can be added for each investor-owned utility is capped at 5% of the utility’s aggregate customer peak demand, which is defined as the sum of the maximum peak demands for each customer rather than the maximum demand for the utility as a whole.
When the cap is reached, there will be approximately 5,570 megawatts of installed solar capacity across the systems of the three California investor-owned utilities. At the end of September 2013, Pacific Gas and Electric reported that it had 902 megawatts of net-metered capacity connected to its system, which is the equivalent of 1.87% of the utility’s aggregate customer peak demand. San Diego Gas and Electric and Southern California Edison had net-metered capacity of 1.67% and 1.46% of aggregate customer peak demand, respectively.

Perhaps better on details, April 23, 2014:
http://www.wsgr.com/WSGR/Display.as...ons/PDFSearch/wsgralert-net-metering-0414.htm

 

[tbleakne]

September is my most A/C intensive billing period. It is both my last chance to get the high TOU weekday afternoon price for generating more from solar than I consume during the on-peak period, and the best chance to consume some of my month-to-month solar credit in $ accumulated over my annual Net Metering accounting year. Any credits I don't consume by next February are erased. I went into this period with $163 credit, even though I have consumed something like 800 kWh more than I have produced since last February.

I was expecting that the higher charging requirements of the Tesla Model S vs the LEAF, as well as my continued A/C of my garage, would eat into my credit, but it is basically the same as last year.

My experience with SCE's Summer Discount Program is much less favorable. Under this program, you agree to let SCE install a box on your home A/C circuit so that they can turn off your A/C when their grid is stressed. Discount credits range from $50 to $200 total spread over the summer months. I used to have the $200 credit option, which allowed unlimited turnoff "events" but they have gradually cranked up the number of events per summer from 0 to several for the whole summer to several per week in the hottest periods.

I now have the $50 option, which gives me 15 over-rides of their turnoff events. They gave me a new box with an override button, some lame blinking lights, and a list of blinking patterns and their meaning. Problems with the program:

1. They give you very little if any warning before they turn you off, often no warning, sometimes an hour or two. Of course I would like to run the A/C before the event to pre-cool the house, and they don't want me to do that because it defeats the intent of the program. However, because I don't know whether there will be an event or not, I tend to run the A/C more than normal "just in case."
2. It is very difficult to find the warning on their web site. It is best to Google "sce demand response event status"
3. When I hit the override button, sometimes it accepts the override and sometimes it does not, but either way, you have consumed one of your 15 overrides in you season allotment. I am down to 2 overrides left to last me through the end of September. One I used last night which was rejected.
4. It is difficult to see the blinking lights in the sun, and it is also difficult to read the code list.
5. The box displays some patterns not on the list. The web page does not describe the patterns. It does explain how to find out how many overrides you have left, which is not on the list on the box.
6. The $50 credit is ignored when you have a Net Metering surplus, so actually I have no $ incentive to be in this program. I am participating simply because I wanted to see how it works in practice. This post is my answer.

 

[smkettner]

Only been nine events this summer. Several very short. And all ended by 8pm.

Product, Start Date, End Date, Start Time, End Time

Residential 07/30/2014 07/30/2014 05:00PM 06:00PM
Residential 07/31/2014 07/31/2014 04:00PM 06:00PM
Residential 08/27/2014 08/27/2014 05:00PM 06:00PM
Residential 08/28/2014 08/28/2014 04:00PM 07:00PM
Residential 09/11/2014 09/11/2014 04:00PM 08:00PM
Residential 09/12/2014 09/12/2014 04:00PM 08:00PM
Residential 09/15/2014 09/15/2014 03:00PM 04:45PM
Residential 09/16/2014 09/16/2014 03:00PM 06:00PM
Residential 09/23/2014 09/23/2014 07:00PM 08:00PM

https://www.sce.openadr.com/dr.website/scepr-event-status-resi.jsf

I have the unlimited with no override button for max rebate.
Connected to just the upstairs air conditioner.

We cool the house overnight like an icebox with lowest 12a to 6a rate. Generally the air stays off from 6a to 6p to avoid on-peak sale of electric. Upstairs get very warm on hottest days with thermostat starting some cooling at 8p to get some sleep then drops colder at 12a and the cycle repeats. The events have never impacted our lifestyle of comfort.

 

[tbleakne]

Only been nine events this summer. Several very short. And all ended by 8pm.
>>>
I have the unlimited with no override button for max rebate.
Connected to just the upstairs air conditioner.

We cool the house overnight like an icebox with lowest 12a to 6a rate. Generally the air stays off from 6a to 6p to avoid on-peak sale of electric. Upstairs get very warm on hottest days with thermostat starting some cooling at 8p to get some sleep then drops colder at 12a and the cycle repeats. The events have never impacted our lifestyle of comfort.

I am glad the program works for you. The climate in many parts of OC is much milder than mine in Claremont, with many folks not having A/C at all. In Claremont on several days this month the outside temperature has been at or about 85 at 10pm.

I too pre-cool my house before 10 am and try to avoid excess A/C before 6 pm on weekdays. Despite upgrades to my roof insulation and installation of double-pane windows, my house inside temperature (single-story), approaches 85 F by 2 pm if there has been no A/C use since 10 am. After 6pm I run the A/C very aggressively to get the house cool enough to sleep by 10 or 11pm. Sometimes the A/C turnoff events have lasted until 8 pm.

I used to have the unlimited option with no override, but went to the override option when I discovered I was getting zero financial benefit because SCE ignores the A/C credit when you have a solar surplus; it does not add the credit to the surplus. I still get no financial benefit with the override option, but I was willing to try it to see how well it would work for me or someone else. 15 overrides would normally be enough to carry me through the whole season as you state, especially since I am not always home when an event occurs, but the system works so poorly that it double and triple counted my override selection several times this month and I am almost out of overrides.

The number of A/C turn-off events per season has risen sharply over the last several years. This causes more people to abandon the program, making it less effective and leading SCE to flip the switch system wide more often.

 

[smkettner]

Yes you were 10 degrees hotter than me today. What also works for me is the two story with upper and lower air conditioners. Ground floor is 68/70 when I eat breakfast at 6:30 am and gets max 78/80 on the hottest days at 6 pm. Upper lever gets up to 85 (from 70) on hottest days. Both air units (2.5 tons each) run continuous from midnight to 6 am on hot days. Several neighbors are paying $400 to $650 during the hottest months but somehow solar will not work for them. :|

If you have credits you can't be doing all bad. I agree I might just remove the thing in your situation. Possibly get a supplemental air unit to cool just one room.

 

[tbleakne]

An interesting view on Net Metering and solar in

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ooCoBA&usg=AFQjCNH1KAug93mQOTa-noq-xjmjUxf8RA

You might not agree with all of it, but it raises some issues new to me. For example, in CO on the eastern slope, folks maximize their solar production by facing their solar arrays SE or E rather than S or SW, because shadows from the mountains shutdown their production in early afternoon. SW would be best for the grid to match the summer demand curve that peaks in the afternoon.

The author discusses how nuanced solar and EV charging incentives need to be for maximum benefit to both the grid and generation, and how most folks with solar or EV in most parts of the country see only a "bundled" fixed-rate price that obscures these issues.

Those of us in SCE and PG&E territory in CA with Net Metering, Time of Use, and EVs appear to be in the forefront of grid pricing, but it would appear that there is still room for improvement. For example, as solar penetration and EV use increases, the utility might want to offer us a special incentive to charge our cars between 8 am and Noon when the grid is lightly loaded. Right now we are charging late at night to be easy on Generation, but mornings would be easy on Distribution as well. During very heavy A/C use periods, they might want to offer us an incentive to do V2G (Vehicle to Grid) in the late afternoon and early evening.

 

[Valdemar]

SCE's already gives you the off-peak rate until 12 pm under their EV TOU plan, too bad you cannot use it with the whole house solar which has to be on a separate meter.

 

[voltiar]

I'm at a $340 surplus with three months to spend it :lol:

I've run the A/C a lot these last few months (even on peak) too since we've had a hot, late summer. I charge my Volt and run my pool every night and don't scrimp too much, but I generated a lot of power on my 6k PV system and had a $450 surplus. I wish I could carry over any leftover to next year. I'm loving the SCE TOU EV and Net Metering. Hope it lasts!

 

[Valdemar]

I'm at a $340 surplus with three months to spend it :lol:

I've run the A/C a lot these last few months (even on peak) too since we've had a hot, late summer. I charge my Volt and run my pool every night and don't scrimp too much, but I generated a lot of power on my 6k PV system and had a $450 surplus. I wish I could carry over any leftover to next year. I'm loving the SCE TOU EV and Net Metering. Hope it lasts!

Don't you get a check for excess generation under Net Metering?

 

[fooljoe]

You get a check only if you're a net producer in terms of kWh, but having a negative $ balance does not necessarily imply that you're a net producer. In fact with TOU and EV charging it's quite easy to have a negative balance at the end of the year despite consuming more than you produce, in which case all those stored up "credits" go to waste. At the end of my last annual cycle, I was a net consumer of about 4,900 kWh, yet my cumulative energy charge was -$70. Sadly, that 70 bucks just went to waste - I guess I should've blasted the A/C or ran extension cords to my neighbors' houses for the last couple months. :lol:

 

[Valdemar]

Interesting, what are these credits good for then, reducing your next month bill if the balance is positive?

 

[voltiar]

It's a yearly cycle. You get a final bill after a year where you settle up. Each month the credit carries over until the end of the 12-month cycle. Basically you rack up credits in the spring/summer and then use them during the less productive winter months. At the end of the year whatever is left over goes back to SCE. It's a pretty sweet setup.