Official Kia Soul EV thread

[Valdemar]

Necessity or not but QC is the main reason I can still make the Leaf work for my 60 mile commute. So I guess it depends.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

a short-ranged EV with QC still makes for a poor long-distance commute.

It's not about the long-distance commute. The QC opens the possibility of the occasional medium-distance trip. I wouldn't want to go on a road trip with a Leaf (200+ miles), but visiting a neighboring city (150-200 miles) a couple of times a year would be acceptable if there were chargers in the right places.

 

[Deleted member 14724]

It's not about the long-distance commute. The QC opens the possibility of the occasional medium-distance trip. I wouldn't want to go on a road trip with a Leaf (200+ miles), but visiting a neighboring city (150-200 miles) a couple of times a year would be acceptable if there were chargers in the right places.

I agree, but this is probably not enough of a market to support a business in most places. Maybe in California, though.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

It's not about the long-distance commute. The QC opens the possibility of the occasional medium-distance trip. I wouldn't want to go on a road trip with a Leaf (200+ miles), but visiting a neighboring city (150-200 miles) a couple of times a year would be acceptable if there were chargers in the right places.

I agree, but this is probably not enough of a market to support a business in most places. Maybe in California, though.

And this is why Tesla's supercharger model is currently the only viable model for building infrastructure. It cannot be profitable to build QCs anywhere. So Tesla is building them in order to sell more cars. I doubt that will change until many many more EVs are on the market. Even then it will only see enough use almost major highways to be profitable. To go 100% electric everywhere, there would have to be some highly unprofitable chargers in some very remote locations. They would be used very infrequently, but without them there, certain trips would be impossible. Again, this is true also for Tesla's network - some locations will see very little use, but boy isn't a map with zero gaps comforting? Think about the Verizon/AT&T coverage map wars. How many people really use their 4G smartphones in the middle of the wilderness? Very few. Those towers probably cost more to install and maintain than they carry in data traffic. But for that one time that you break down and need to call for a tow in the middle of nowhere, isn't it good to know you can? You can also update your facebook status while you wait...

I'm frustrated that state governments and utilities aren't getting more into the action. For example, NYS could easily fund a QC at every full-service rest stop on the Thruway, making travel from NYC to Buffalo (~400 miles), or anywhere in between, possible in today's Leaf.

Utilities would benefit from more EVs on the road - more customers for their electricity! Plus, they could technically charge retail prices and still make a profit (by definition). By eliminating the reseller (e.g. EVGo / CarCharging Group / etc.), the electricity can be much cheaper.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Utilities would benefit from more EVs on the road - more customers for their electricity! Plus, they could technically charge retail prices and still make a profit (by definition). By eliminating the reseller (e.g. EVGo / CarCharging Group / etc.), the electricity can be much cheaper.

Good luck with that theory. I call it "Exxon v2".

The utilities in California are working hard to change laws to allow them to do exactly what you think you want.

If the existing providers can't compete (and believe me, they can't against the monopoly regulated utilities), then what happens? Do you have more or less charge stations?

Assuming, as I do, that the monopoly utilities fully take over over 20kW DC charging, I'm sure that it's way better to have a singular monopoly provider in the market... that always is best, right?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Can existing providers actually be profitable based on reselling electricity? I am not convinced they can be.

Now another model which might work could be more like the gas station / convenience store model. They could sell the electricity for minimal profit (or even at cost) so that EV drivers will spend half an hour at their convenience store, cafe, etc. But it still requires a large upfront cost to install the chargers.

I'm not sure what you think I want - I just stated that the utilities could benefit from selling electricity directly to EV drivers. What I want is a robust and reliable QC network. The only one I know of is the Tesla supercharger network. CHAdeMO is not there yet, even on the west coast. Too many chargers are one-offs (i.e. no backup if one is in use or out of order). Others are not available 24/7. Few are placed to actually support inter-city travel (i.e. along the highway between cities). CCS hasn't even gotten started yet, although BMW has made comments about 2015 being the "Year of Infrastructure", whatever that means.

 

[GRA]

Can existing providers actually be profitable based on reselling electricity? I am not convinced they can be.

Now another model which might work could be more like the gas station / convenience store model. They could sell the electricity for minimal profit (or even at cost) so that EV drivers will spend half an hour at their convenience store, cafe, etc. But it still requires a large upfront cost to install the chargers.

I'm not sure what you think I want - I just stated that the utilities could benefit from selling electricity directly to EV drivers. What I want is a robust and reliable QC network. The only one I know of is the Tesla supercharger network. CHAdeMO is not there yet, even on the west coast. Too many chargers are one-offs (i.e. no backup if one is in use or out of order). Others are not available 24/7. Few are placed to actually support inter-city travel (i.e. along the highway between cities). CCS hasn't even gotten started yet, although BMW has made comments about 2015 being the "Year of Infrastructure", whatever that means.

In California CCS is well under way (due to a legal settlement rather than a business model), and Oregon isn't totally lacking although deployment seems to have stalled. At least at the moment, most of the CCS in California aren't at dealers and are available 24/7, so are far more useful than many CHAdeMO. On the downside, most of them continue to be 'one-offs', and to date connections from certain models of CCS-QCs to certain CCS-equipped car models are somewhat hit and miss. That should be just teething troubles, but it's surprising given that this is supposed to be a standard. Somebody somewhere isn't doing their job(s).

 

[Deleted member 14724]

I think only the premium makers have the economic incentive (right now that means only Tesla, but in the near future, if any other large scale rollout of DC charging happens, it will come from a luxury maker or from the government) to build these loss leader stations. To me, the rational thing for Nissan and the other makers to do, if they make a long-range EV, is to offer Tesla money in exchange for Tesla's charging technology and Supercharger access. And it will have to be a fairly pricey add-on, I think, in order to make it worth Tesla's while (after all the stations would become more crowded). I have no idea if Tesla would be interested, but it would be worth a shot. I see no other practical way for QC charging to be available on a large scale in the USA, given political and economic realities.

 

[nosuchthing]

And now let's get back to the original subject matter of this thread, which is the Kia Soul EV, shall we?

 

[KJD]

And now let's get back to the original subject matter of this thread, which is the Kia Soul EV, shall we?

Does KIA have any plans to expand the CHAdeMO network?

 

[TonyWilliams]

And now let's get back to the original subject matter of this thread, which is the Kia Soul EV, shall we?

Does KIA have any plans to expand the CHAdeMO network?

Yes.

CHAdeMO stations are quickly popping up at all the Kia dealers that sell the Soul EV.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can existing providers actually be profitable based on reselling electricity? I am not convinced they can be.

You may or may not know that I'm actually "in the business" of providing DC charging. I am part owner of the very first DC charger on the USA's largest EV charging network, ChargePoint.

With that said, the answer is absolutely, "yes", until such time that our state allows the monopoly utilities to compete against us.

I'm not sure what you think I want - I just stated that the utilities could benefit from selling electricity directly to EV drivers.

And I state that this action will REDUCE private company (non-state regulates utilities) interest and profitability in DC charging. The result of that is obvious.

Here's a simple question for you. Do you think any of the monopoly utilities would do a better job than Tesla?

What I want is a robust and reliable QC network. The only one I know of is the Tesla supercharger network. CHAdeMO is not there yet, even on the west coast. Too many chargers are one-offs (i.e. no backup if one is in use or out of order). Others are not available 24/7. Few are placed to actually support inter-city travel (i.e. along the highway between cities). CCS hasn't even gotten started yet, although BMW has made comments about 2015 being the "Year of Infrastructure", whatever that means.

So, monopoly utility ownership solves all these problems like magic?

 

[GRA]

And now let's get back to the original subject matter of this thread, which is the Kia Soul EV, shall we?

Does KIA have any plans to expand the CHAdeMO network?

Yes.

CHAdeMO stations are quickly popping up at all the Kia dealers that sell the Soul EV.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to describe them as "quickly popping up", but Kia has started to install chargers at their dealerships, and unlike every other EV company they're taking the high road and making them all dual CHAdeMO/CCS.

 

[Valdemar]

Somehow I don't see too many "successfully charged" comments on PlugShare for chargers at KIA dealerships around LA area.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Does KIA have any plans to expand the CHAdeMO network?

Yes.

CHAdeMO stations are quickly popping up at all the Kia dealers that sell the Soul EV.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to describe them as "quickly popping up", but Kia has started to install chargers at their dealerships, and unlike every other EV company they're taking the high road and making them all dual CHAdeMO/CCS.

Did I use the wrong term? Adding charge stations at a rate that far exceeds any other manufacturer?

Nissan - years to get its first CHAdeMO stations installed after LEAF launch

Tesla - one full year after Model S launch for first Superchargers

Kia - within a few months, many (most) of the dealers that sell the Soul EV have already installed a CHAdeMO station.

I'm not sure what to make of including a CCS station. It seems dumb to me, and nobody else is crossing over to other COMPETING charge protocols. Not BMW, not Nissan, not Tesla.

Honestly, why isn't Kia installing Tesla Supercharger stations? Or just HPC's ? What does Kia allegedly get with a CCS charge plug that doesn't even fit their car?

 

[RegGuheert]

What does Kia allegedly get with a CCS charge plug that doesn't even fit their car?

The only thing I can think of is they may get some owners of EVs with CCS plugs into their showrooms. I suppose that could result in a few sales, but I cannot imaging it makes the installation of the extra plug worthwhile.

I do find it interesting that Kia seems able to to what Nissan claimed they could not: Compel their dealers to install and maintain quick chargers.

 

[Deleted member 14724]

What does Kia allegedly get with a CCS charge plug that doesn't even fit their car?

The only thing I can think of is they may get some owners of EVs with CCS plugs into their showrooms. I suppose that could result in a few sales, but I cannot imaging it makes the installation of the extra plug worthwhile.

I do find it interesting that Kia seems able to to what Nissan claimed they could not: Compel their dealers to install and maintain quick chargers.

Perhaps Kia's status as a latecomer to the American market makes that possible. They may have had some stipulations on dealers that companies which have been here decades longer just could not implement.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Can existing providers actually be profitable based on reselling electricity? I am not convinced they can be.

You may or may not know that I'm actually "in the business" of providing DC charging. I am part owner of the very first DC charger on the USA's largest EV charging network, ChargePoint.

With that said, the answer is absolutely, "yes", until such time that our state allows the monopoly utilities to compete against us.

No need to get defensive here, Tony. No, I do not keep tabs on the careers of other forum members. I did not know that you run a profitable business reselling electricity. I assume that means that you have made enough revenue to cover both the cost of the electricity and the unsubsidized price of the equipment. That is where we eventually need to be, in order for the private sector to spread the infrastructure in a meaningful way. CarCharging Group is not there yet, I'm thrilled to hear that you are!

I'm not sure what you think I want - I just stated that the utilities could benefit from selling electricity directly to EV drivers.

And I state that this action will REDUCE private company (non-state regulates utilities) interest and profitability in DC charging. The result of that is obvious.

Here's a simple question for you. Do you think any of the monopoly utilities would do a better job than Tesla?

And here is a simple answer for you: no. I don't think that anyone can do a better job than Tesla today (i.e. until EVs reach a critical mass). The reason is that Tesla makes money on the network indirectly - through higher sales volumes. Nissan and Kia stand to make the same gain, albeit to a smaller degree. They are not setting up their networks as intelligently as Tesla is, and as a result the customer experience will suffer.

What I want is a robust and reliable QC network. The only one I know of is the Tesla supercharger network. CHAdeMO is not there yet, even on the west coast. Too many chargers are one-offs (i.e. no backup if one is in use or out of order). Others are not available 24/7. Few are placed to actually support inter-city travel (i.e. along the highway between cities). CCS hasn't even gotten started yet, although BMW has made comments about 2015 being the "Year of Infrastructure", whatever that means.

So, monopoly utility ownership solves all these problems like magic?

This is a cheap shot at a strawman argument. I never said, implied, or even thought that a utility monopoly would fix all of our problems "like magic". I was simply wondering why they hadn't jumped into the game, a question which you answered - regulations. I do believe that they stand to benefit from installing QCs. I don't know whether or not the customers (i.e. the drivers, not private owners of charging networks) would benefit or not. I know what you believe. However, given that there are zero QCs within 125 miles of me, I am not exactly rolling in options up here.

Regarding Kia, I just hope they learn how not to roll out a QC network from Nissan. But it sounds like they may be following the same pattern of using dealerships, not allowing 24/7 access at all QCs, and failing to add redundancy.

 

[RegGuheert]

They are not setting up their networks as intelligently as Tesla is, and as a result the customer experience will suffer.

It is not possible for Nissan or Kia to set up their charging networks as intelligently as Tesla, since their vehicle offerings do not have the range of the Tesla offerings. Tesla took an approach that carefully matches the requirements of both the network and the vehicle offerings. As battery prices come down, they should be able to offer lower-cost EVs which can use either the current charging network or one with double the number of locations (and half the distance between them).

(But note that I am NOT saying that there isn't significant room for improvement from Nissan and perhaps Kia.)

 

[GetOffYourGas]

They are not setting up their networks as intelligently as Tesla is, and as a result the customer experience will suffer.

It is not possible for Nissan or Kia to set up their charging networks as intelligently as Tesla, since their vehicle offerings do not have the range of the Tesla offerings. Tesla took an approach that carefully matches the requirements of both the network and the vehicle offerings. As battery prices come down, they should be able to offer lower-cost EVs which can use either the current charging network or one with double the number of locations (and half the distance between them).

(But note that I am NOT saying that there isn't significant room for improvement from Nissan and perhaps Kia.)

I must respectfully disagree with you here. It certainly is possible to set up their networks as intelligently as Tesla. It would be much more difficult to cover the entire US coast-to-coast, but you could at least connect regions. For example, I have four cities near me, any of which would be easily accessible with a well-placed QC. From Syracuse, it is 70 miles north to Watertown, 90 miles west to Rochester, 75 miles south to Binghamton, and 145 miles to Albany (admittedly, this would be a stretch - maybe two would be needed).

Furthermore, Tesla put their superchargers along the highways rather than at dealerships. They have 4-12 stalls at each to reduce congestion and allow for the occasional failure. All stalls are in operation 24/7.

Tesla's model certainly requires more work and more capital to set up. But they are doing so in order to sell more cars.

Nissan/Kia's model probably helps sell EVs as well, but that's a small share of their revenue.

I'm excited to hear that at least someone has figured out how to run charging locations profitably. If they are a loss-leader, the networks will continue to stagnate. If they are profitable, enterprising people will make them grow.