Official Kia Soul EV thread

[TonyWilliams]

If I didn't have the Badass Rav 4 EV (with no quick charge port, #fail), this would have been my next EV after my Leaf (RIP).

We can fix that problem of "no quick charge port".

"JdeMO"

 

[nosuchthing]

If I read the test correctly, Soul was driven in D mode with Eco off. Is that correct?

 

[TonyWilliams]

If I read the test correctly, Soul was driven in D mode with Eco off. Is that correct?

We operate without climate control and at steady speed (no regen).

Either mode would provide EXACTLY the same date. I honestly don't know what mode we were in, since it doesn't matter.

 

[RubberToe]

If I read the test correctly, Soul was driven in D mode with Eco off. Is that correct?

At 2:46 and 3:15 in the video the center console shows it is indeed in "D" versus "B". Also, the ECO can be seen in the right hand circular display. Maybe it was in ECO mode? Not sure what that has to do with the range provided. You would think that when the driver got off the freeway, touched the brake, or slowed down at all for any reason, the ECO versus Non-ECO would have some effect. I'm sure the tester knows more about this than I do though.

RT

 

[lorenfb]

"Since the Kia Soul EVVisit the Kia Soul EV Forum battery is fully 25% larger than the LEAF, we expected a range quite close to 25% farther than the 84 - 88 miles that a LEAF can perform (when in new condition) under these parameters. That would put the Soul EVVisit the Soul EV Forum at an estimated range of 105 – 110 miles."

"We drove a total of 104.5 miles, however 100 miles from the odometer reading was at 62mph (100kmh). With the Google Maps correction of 1.5% added to the odometer, we will therefore award 101.5 mile (162.4 km) autonomous range at 62mph (100km) given our test parameters."

"How will Nissan respond? The Soul EVVisit the Soul EV Forum has two significant benefits over the LEAF:

1. ~25% more real world range.
2. 10 year / 100k mile capacity warranty."

The actual additional "more real world range" is about 16% (101.5 - 88)/ 88 = 15%

The Reality:

Given that Kia has had three years to reverse engineer the Leaf and provide a real improved
BEV over the existing Leaf, a 16% range improvement is hardly that significant nor
a real benefit to the BEV market to induce new potential buyers. Additionally, the marginal
so-called TMS' real effectiveness is pure speculation at this point. With that very small
range improvement, the result of a slightly larger battery, other vehicle features, e,g, cargo
space, interior layout, & exterior design, all basically have equal value in the final purchase
decision for a rational & objective buyer.

Yes, the warranty improvement has some value over the Leaf's, but the potential buyer has
three years of Leaf reliability data for over 100K+ vehicles, notwithstanding the battery.
On that issue, who really knows how well the Soul battery will preform or will other
reliability problems offset any potential battery improvement.

So, except for those naive buyers who just focus on one or two features, e.g. minor range
differences & warranty, one has to seriously not consider the Kia a threat to major Leaf
sales or market share. Furthermore, comparative purchase prices have not been evaluated,
i.e. with the additional 3 kWh of capacity at $300/$400 per kWh added to the resale price,
nor has the U.S. market availability been determined. Then the question arises, is the Kia just
another compliance BEV to be sold at a marginal profitability? Nothing really in this thread
indicates otherwise.

Many on this thread were hoping that the Soul might be that new BEV arrival that would basically
be a Gen 2 type market entrant. That's far from being the case. But what would one expect
from a second tier auto manufacturer like Kia with its 'me-too' products? Yes, a 'me too' Gen 1
BEV that requires little to no response from Nissan! So until we see that real market changer BEV
that provides a 150+ mile range, we might have to wait until 2017 for the Tesla Gen 3 and
just get more 'me too' products like the Kia Soul.

 

[nosuchthing]

So until we see that real market changer BEV that provides a 150+ mile range, we might have to wait until 2017 for the Tesla Gen 3.

For a leased EV to hold us over until Tesla/GM 200-mile vehicles come along, Soul, at least for us, already proves to be a super great car that actually allows us to go to SF (60-mile distance) and hopefully my job (84 miles).

That is one helluva improvement over our 3.3 charger, 58-mile-range '11 Leaf with much discredited battery and just about no hope of moving forward and upgrading to anything over 73 miles. Based on recent history with this company, I seriously doubt Nissan will offer a helping hand to '11-'12 Leaf owners with anything other than that 73-mile Lizard. I think this is the end of the line for those cars, and I feel sorry for all those who are now stuck with these "local Leafs". I am grateful I was able to unload it for 11,500 bucks.

So, for whatever this Soul is, a bona fide EV effort, or a compliance offering, it is BETTER than ALL BEVs available on the market as of right now except Tesla, and perhaps the dying-on-the-vine RAV EV. Because ultimately range is the king, folks, and whatever luxuries that come along are a bonus.

And Soul has got them all.

 

[TomT]

I spent two days doing evaluations and focus groups for Kia last week and though I can't say anything specific due to NDA, I can say that they have some very exciting products well along in the pipeline. A number of manufactures are going to find themselves playing catch-up if they are not careful...

 

[TonyWilliams]

with the additional 3 kWh of capacity at $300/$400 per kWh added to the resale price,

It's actually about 6kWh larger:

Model - Max Cap --- Useable
Soul--- 30.5kWh --- 27.0kWh
LEAF--- 24.0kWh --- 21.3kWh

 

[TonyWilliams]

I spent two days doing evaluations and focus groups for Kia last week and though I can't say anything specific due to NDA, I can say that they have some very exciting products well along in the pipeline. A number of manufactures are going to find themselves playing catch-up if they are not careful...

I'm thoroughly convince Kia is the "real deal".

 

[cwerdna]

I'm thoroughly convince Kia is the "real deal".

Many years ago, one of my friends at a leading chip company basically said that the Korean companies were ones to to watch out for.

For years, I'd noticed that when attending CES (cesweb.org), the large Korean companies (e.g. mainly LG and Samsung) had an amazing number and variety of products. Obviously, since then, Samsung has grown to be quite an electronics powerhouse, from a maker of not-so-great electronics to some decent to good stuff. LG's come along way from its Goldstar days (remember, LG == Lucky Goldstar). Remember their Goldstar-branded amber monochrome monitors in the IBM PC days? Gotta hand it to both their marketing and improved products.

Hyundai (related to Kia) has come a long way from their humble 1st attempt at the US market, the Excel. It'll be interesting if a similar pattern develops w/Korean automakers vs. the Japanese. For those who don't follow, Sony's been doing pretty badly lately (e.g. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-19/sony-ceo-apologizes-as-ps4-maker-restructures-on-loss-forecast.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/17/us-sony-outlook-idUSKBN0HC0EC20140917" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[lorenfb]

with the additional 3 kWh of capacity at $300/$400 per kWh added to the resale price,

It's actually about 6kWh larger:

Model - Max Cap --- Useable
Soul--- 30.5kWh --- 27.0kWh
LEAF--- 24.0kWh --- 21.3kWh

Then the cost differential should be twice what was indicated, i.e. about a $2K additional retail price
for the Kia over the Leaf or less margin for Kia.

 

[Berlino]

I can't understand why Kia wouldn't advertize 30kWh. Yes, it might be better if all manufacturers reported usable battery size, but by being a lone wolf, Kia makes their battery seem smaller.

Publicizing 3 kWh more would cost less than the hamsters, but be more effective as a marketing tool. (OK, maybe not for attracting the general public, but at least here.)

 

[gatedad11]

Nobody is claiming that the Soul is the "be all/end all" of EV's. However, 93 miles range is a significant increase in range...basically 10%(from the 84 mile LEAF). In the EV world of Li batteries, a 10% improvement is not marginal and not to be ignored. There are tons of regular Kia Souls on the road, and we have plenty to see and evaluate. They look to be roomier, and at least as comfortable as the LEAF. The included extras" are actually standard with the EV version, and although they add to the cost, they represent things that most owners will want. QC, improved heating and cooling, rear view camera, etc are all very nice to have and are expected in a car that costs in the neighborhood of $30,000. I am not sure what you want to see in a BEV(understood that everyone wants that 200 mile BEV, but it ain't there yet)that would lead to a negative opinion of this car. A few years down the road, we will see those 150-200 mile BEV's, but until then I commend KIA. Now let's get it rolled out to the rest of the USA.
Lou

 

[pkulak]

Nobody is claiming that the Soul is the "be all/end all" of EV's. However, 93 miles range is a significant increase in range...basically 10%(from the 84 mile LEAF). In the EV world of Li batteries, a 10% improvement is not marginal and not to be ignored. There are tons of regular Kia Souls on the road, and we have plenty to see and evaluate. They look to be roomier, and at least as comfortable as the LEAF. The included extras" are actually standard with the EV version, and although they add to the cost, they represent things that most owners will want. QC, improved heating and cooling, rear view camera, etc are all very nice to have and are expected in a car that costs in the neighborhood of $30,000. I am not sure what you want to see in a BEV(understood that everyone wants that 200 mile BEV, but it ain't there yet)that would lead to a negative opinion of this car. A few years down the road, we will see those 150-200 mile BEV's, but until then I commend KIA. Now let's get it rolled out to the rest of the USA.
Lou

Is it really roomier? From what I can tell it's actually a full foot shorter. Though it has more interior room and the same cargo area? That's a pretty good use of space, if I'm reading it right.

 

[mtndrew1]

Nobody is claiming that the Soul is the "be all/end all" of EV's. However, 93 miles range is a significant increase in range...basically 10%(from the 84 mile LEAF). In the EV world of Li batteries, a 10% improvement is not marginal and not to be ignored. There are tons of regular Kia Souls on the road, and we have plenty to see and evaluate. They look to be roomier, and at least as comfortable as the LEAF. The included extras" are actually standard with the EV version, and although they add to the cost, they represent things that most owners will want. QC, improved heating and cooling, rear view camera, etc are all very nice to have and are expected in a car that costs in the neighborhood of $30,000. I am not sure what you want to see in a BEV(understood that everyone wants that 200 mile BEV, but it ain't there yet)that would lead to a negative opinion of this car. A few years down the road, we will see those 150-200 mile BEV's, but until then I commend KIA. Now let's get it rolled out to the rest of the USA.
Lou

Is it really roomier? From what I can tell it's actually a full foot shorter. Though it has more interior room and the same cargo area? That's a pretty good use of space, if I'm reading it right.

It's roomier, but with a very different use of space. The car is very tall and has gobs of headroom, even in the back. Because of the upright nature of everything I can seat myself comfortably (5'11", 165 lbs) in the driver's seat and then get "behind myself" and have plenty of room in all directions. The Leaf for me is tighter in this regard.

Where the Leaf has a squat, deep trunk, the Soul has a short but tall trunk. I have to put the seats down for deep items where I wouldn't need to in a Leaf, but if I had to put a large cube in the car it'd be easier with the seats down in the Soul than the seats down in the Leaf.

 

[edatoakrun]

Nobody is claiming that the Soul is the "be all/end all" of EV's. However, 93 miles range is a significant increase in range...basically 10%(from the 84 mile LEAF). In the EV world of Li batteries, a 10% improvement is not marginal and not to be ignored...Lou

Correct.

IMO, the first real (non-compliance BEV) competition for the first gen LEAF.

As to accurate comparative reports of efficiency and range at (45, 60, and 70 mph) constant speeds, initial total and available battery capacity, and capacity loss over time, miles, and kWh throughput, it looks like the ATVA may be repeating the torture test that the four 2012 LEAFs have been undergoing, on many of the other US market BEVs, including the Soul.

p 20:

AVTA Owned BEVs
Goal – benchmark life-cycle costs,
maintenance requirements, battery
performance, real world mpg & kWh /
mile. Inform fleet & public BEV purchase
decisions. Reduces technology
adaption & mission placement risks
• 6 models since 2011, 17 BEVs
• 171,000 test miles
• Data collection ongoing
20
103 public quarterly reports generated. Some raw data shared with other
national labs and universities
No NDAs
Vehicle data – AVTA Data Loggers
BEV 12 standard parameters. Most
BEVs 30 total parameters @ 1 hertz.
Allows calculations of Mpg & DC
Wh/mi, total & trip distances, ambient
temperatures, charging behavior, AC
use, amp-hour through put, etc. .
• (4) 2014 Smart EVs, (4) 2013 Ford Focus, (4)
2013 Nissan Leafs, (2) 2012 Mitsubishi i-
MiEVs, (2) 2011 Nissan Leafs, (1) 2015 BMW i3
w/RE. (3) More BMW i3 w/RE, (4) BMW i3, (4)
Kia Soul EV, (4) Mercedes B- EV, (4) Chevy
Spark coming....

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/DOEDataSummitOct2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 770]

Good find!

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/DOEDataSummitOct2014.pdf

Wow - can't wait to see some of the reports to come out of that dataset! I find it fascinating that their amalgamation of vehicles is logging "a million test miles and 9,000 charging events every 5 days" (p.8)

It'd be great if the public were given the ability to choose and run a number of reports on demand, rather than just what they want to present, but I suppose that's too much to ask for.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Great report Tony as always. What is max tire pressure listing? Since I would run at that and should get me an extra 3-5 miles of range. But lets be real. the Kia not being better than the LEAF would qualify as the stupidest marketing move ever.

But I am committed to my LEAF until the end of 2016 so guessing the LEAF will have leapfrogged the Soul by then but hopefully by then, the Soul will have fixed its error by realizing the market for EV in WA so at least i can think I have options

 

[cwstnsko]

...IMO, the first real (non-compliance BEV) competition for the first gen LEAF....

At a minimum the Kia Soul EV would have to be offered in the Atlanta and Seattle markets before I would consider it anything but a compliance EV. No EV that was being marketed for profit would withhold product from the #1 & #3 markets of their largest, most successful competitor (the Leaf).

To me, the Soul EV looks like a fine evolution of the basic entry-level EV. It will be interesting to see if the limited TMS turns out to be the right balance of simplicity and performance. I think a major lesson learned from the Leaf is that no TMS is perhaps too little in all but the most battery friendly climates. I think the Focus EV TMS may be overkill in this class of EV for all but the harshest climates. Maybe the Soul EV has it just right. Only time will tell.

 

[Deleted member 770]

It will be interesting to see if the limited TMS turns out to be the right balance of simplicity and performance. I think a major lesson learned from the Leaf is that no TMS is perhaps too little in all but the most battery friendly climates. I think the Focus EV TMS may be overkill in this class of EV for all but the harshest climates. Maybe the Soul EV has it just right. Only time will tell.

The question in my mind is "How can an air cooling system really get the temperature down on a pack in a vehicle that's sitting outdoors in the Phoenix sun all day long?" I mean, it can't actually COOL the air, and since the battery pack will be sitting most of the time with no activity (no charging and only discharging to run the fans and maybe a control computer), the air surrounding it should be very close to ambient temperature.

Yes, I can see some benefit when the vehicle is occupied and moving (and presumably has the A/C running), but how is pushing 110° F air around going to help the battery when the car is parked all day?