Official Ford C-MAX Energi PHEV thread

[grommet]

They had an X prototype there and I queried the engineers at length. They claim the range will be the same. I'm not sure I believe that but they say that is what their testing has shown...

I love their public smoke and mirrors. I've been unofficially told somewhere around a 10% hit compared to the Model S for same size battery when released. No comments on the impact with or without AWD.

 

[mitch672]

The Big 3 are only doing it BECAUSE they are being forced to by Tesla / Nissan and CARB zero emission requirements.

It may be true that GM is producing the Volt because of CARB and CAFE regulations but, just to clear, GM wasn't forced to build the Volt by Tesla or Nissan.

The Tesla Roadster was announced as a concept in July 2006. The Volt concept car was inspired by the Roadster and was shown in January 2007, 2.5 years before the Nissan LEAF was announced. The Volt was approved for production less than 2 months after the concept was rolled out with a target date of 2010. Batteries were being tested soon thereafter and a refined production date of November 2010 was announced in the fall of 2007. The Roadster began production in March 2008. The Volt production design was shown in September 2008. The LEAF was first announced in August 2009. Both the LEAF and Volt began production in October/November were first delivered to customers in December 2010.

Bob Lutz used the existance of the Tesla Roadster to convince the GM board of directors that they MUST produce an electric car "How can we let this Silicon Valley startup show us off?", he talks about in in "Revenge of the Electric car", where Bob and Elon are walking around an auto show looking at the competition. If the Tesla Roadster was never created, it's very likely there would not have been the GM Volt, or the Volt would have been done many years later. Bob and Elon actually get a long, sort of

 

[TomT]

I'm not interested in AWD so that is not a consideration for me...

They had an X prototype there and I queried the engineers at length. They claim the range will be the same. I'm not sure I believe that but they say that is what their testing has shown...

I love their public smoke and mirrors. I've been unofficially told somewhere around a 10% hit compared to the Model S for same size battery when released. No comments on the impact with or without AWD.

 

[IBELEAF]

This is Rev 1 for Ford, if I were to get one I would go for lease, but 20 mile range is just not going to cut it and probably winter time it will be below 15.

The choice seems to be
- Energi this year / early next year
- Mitsu Outlander PHEV late next year / 2014

No other CUV PHEV is on the horizon ...

Or this

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/beijing-2010-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-crossover-revealed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[grommet]

Or this

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/beijing-2010-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-crossover-revealed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's not a planned production vehicle. If we include "show cars", the list would be vast.

 

[TomT]

Yep, all that really buys for me is an expensive fancy hybrid with a carpool sticker... I'll pass.

This is Rev 1 for Ford, if I were to get one I would go for lease, but 20 mile range is just not going to cut it and probably winter time it will be below 15.

 

[JeffN]

The Big 3 are only doing it BECAUSE they are being forced to by Tesla / Nissan and CARB zero emission requirements.

The Volt concept car was inspired by the Roadster.....

If the Tesla Roadster was never created, it's very likely there would not have been the GM Volt, or the Volt would have been done many years later. Bob and Elon actually get a long, sort of

I completely agree with that.

 

[evnow]

Or this

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/beijing-2010-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-crossover-revealed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That won't be produced anytime soon.

 

[TomT]

If it existed this year, with the 2014 Volt genset and at a decent price, I'd buy it in a heart-beat.

Or this http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/beijing-2010-chevrolet-volt-mpv5-crossover-revealed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That won't be produced anytime soon.

 

[evnow]

If it existed this year, with the 2014 Volt genset and at a decent price, I'd buy it in a heart-beat.

What if gave 30 mpg & had 30 miles of EV range ?

And still no 5th seat at the back ;-)

BTW - I'm not sure the idea of PHEVs to maximize range at the expense of utility (like Volt) is the right approach. This "sportsy" car approach is basically designed by muscle car enthusiasts for muscle car enthusiasts. I bet an MPV with 30 mpg & had 30 miles of EV range would have sold better.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If it existed this year, with the 2014 Volt genset and at a decent price, I'd buy it in a heart-beat.

What if gave 30 mpg & had 30 miles of EV range ?

And still no 5th seat at the back ;-)

BTW - I'm not sure the idea of PHEVs to maximize range at the expense of utility (like Volt) is the right approach. This "sportsy" car approach is basically designed by muscle car enthusiasts for muscle car enthusiasts. I bet an MPV with 30 mpg & had 30 miles of EV range would have sold better.

the only thing i can say for the Volt is they hit the EV range just about perfectly. other than that, it is too small, too expensive, and just does not fit well.

take away the perks of HOV and whatnot and where would they be? (i do not favor giving HOV access to single LEAF drivers either!)

all in all, i think the Volt AND LEAF are doing as well as can be expected considering the low gas prices (which we could change by taxing gasoline AND oil companies appropriately) nearly complete lack of support by PUDs, governmental agencies, Congress and mass media

 

[TomT]

We already know that the new genset coming in 2014 will give much better gas mileage as well as better performance, so that may become a non-issue at that point. As far as 5 seats, we don't need them so we don't care. 30 miles of EV range would just get me to work and back starting in October when my company moves, so I could live with that. For my wife, who would likely use it 80% of the time, it would fill 90 percent of her needs without needing gas. I'd definitely consider a 2014 or later Volt based CUV...

What if gave 30 mpg & had 30 miles of EV range ?
And still no 5th seat at the back ;-)

 

[IBELEAF]

I thought 4 seater would be an issue, but it's not the case for family of 3. Cargo space is more important when you have bunch of kid things even for just a day trip. In regards to cmax vs volt, I would go with the latter because of my range needs.

 

[evnow]

Lack of 5th seat is not a major problem in itself - it just reduces cargo space at the back. I've used the floor infront of the backseat to carry a lot of stuff in Leaf. Things that wouldn't fit in the trunc.

 

[redLEAF]

Hot off the (virtual) press ... I've been looking forward to when the auto press finally gets the first iteration (C-MAX hybrid, plug-in (Energi) comes later) for an actual road test so as I post this I'm sure we'll see others and please add them for others to enjoy ... interesting comparisons with the Prius V which I test drove and did not come away very impressed (especially being the top of the range model) ... enjoy

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1210_2013_ford_c_max_hybrid/

Here are few more:

http://www.examiner.com/article/2013-ford-c-max-epa-rated-at-47-mpg-first-drive-gets-60-mpg

http://www.insideline.com/ford/c-max-hybrid/2013/2013-ford-c-max-hybrid-first-drive.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6YMSUL-Oo[/youtube]

 

[EricBayArea]

I really like this car. Never thought I'd like another Ford after my father owned 3 Explorers and each had issues (but the dealer ended up giving him good trade-in for another each time).

The one thing that continues to strike me as odd about new cars is why the necessity for a full-sized gear shift? I get it if it's a manual transmission because you are ACTUALLY shifting gears. But I would imagine that a lot of the cars today do that electronically and thus, the gear shift can be replaced with something like the LEAF has or something similar. It's just such an eyesore :shock:

 

[GRA]

Thanks for the links. I'm quite impressed and could see this for myself. Whether to go with the HEV or PHEV versions depends on my estimate of how quickly gas prices increase and the price difference, although realistically it's unlikely that the PHEV will make up the difference in its lifetime.

Neither makes any sense on a strict cost basis compared to keeping my current car, a 2003 Forester that I paid cash for, which has less than 59,000 miles on it and is in excellent shape. Although the C-Max Hybrid is rated at almost twice the highway mileage (47 versus 25*), I can buy an awful lot of gas for $26k + tax/license etc. On a GHG basis, it would take many years for the better gas mileage to offset the GHGs involved in building a new car, so I probably can't justify it that way either. No mention of whether there's a spare or not, which is a requirement for me. Judging by the humped up storage space there isn't one stored under the rear cargo area, at least not internally.

Nevertheless, I'll definitely check both out when they're available, cause these cars can (probably) meet my needs. I'd probably want to put some better tires on them, though, and give up a couple mpg.

*This is the value when corrected to 2008 test conditions. Under the test conditions in effect in 2003, it is rated 27 mpg highway.

 

[redLEAF]

Another test but longer clip, appears to be the same big press intro on the west coast with a few words from the Ford guys as well ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj0pjP4wFbo[/youtube]

 

[mxp]

Thanks for the links. I'm quite impressed and could see this for myself. Whether to go with the HEV or PHEV versions depends on my estimate of how quickly gas prices increase and the price difference, although realistically it's unlikely that the PHEV will make up the difference in its lifetime.

Neither makes any sense on a strict cost basis compared to keeping my current car, a 2003 Forester that I paid cash for, which has less than 59,000 miles on it and is in excellent shape. Although the C-Max Hybrid is rated at almost twice the highway mileage (47 versus 25*), I can buy an awful lot of gas for $26k + tax/license etc. On a GHG basis, it would take many years for the better gas mileage to offset the GHGs involved in building a new car, so I probably can't justify it that way either. No mention of whether there's a spare or not, which is a requirement for me. Judging by the humped up storage space there isn't one stored under the rear cargo area, at least not internally.

Nevertheless, I'll definitely check both out when they're available, cause these cars can (probably) meet my needs. I'd probably want to put some better tires on them, though, and give up a couple mpg.

*This is the value when corrected to 2008 test conditions. Under the test conditions in effect in 2003, it is rated 27 mpg highway.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/0726/Ford-C-Max-Energi-cheapest-plug-in-hybrid-yet-after-rebate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2012/07/29/terminal-velocity-ford-c-max-energi-to-vie-with-volt-prius/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPGe (miles per gallon equivalent): Volt 98, Prius PHV, 95, Energi 95.

Starting sticker price: Volt, $39,145; Prius PHV, $32,760; Energi, $33,750.

U.S.-government tax credit: Volt, $7,500; Prius PHV, $2,500; Energi, $3,750.

Net price after credit: Volt $31,645; Prius PHV, $30,260; Energi, $29,995.

Electric-only range: Volt, about 38 miles; Prius PHV; about 15 miles; Energi, about 20 miles.

Range including gasoline engine: Volt, about 400; Prius PHV; 540 miles; Energi, 550 miles.

And, it seats 3 in the back seat unlike the Volt. Bigger trunk space than the Leaf. It qualifies for CA carpool lanes; it will also qualify for an additional $1,500 CA state rebate. Just under $30k.

I think it's a winner! ;-)

 

[redLEAF]

Thanks for the links. I'm quite impressed and could see this for myself. Whether to go with the HEV or PHEV versions depends on my estimate of how quickly gas prices increase and the price difference, although realistically it's unlikely that the PHEV will make up the difference in its lifetime.

Neither makes any sense on a strict cost basis compared to keeping my current car, a 2003 Forester that I paid cash for, which has less than 59,000 miles on it and is in excellent shape. Although the C-Max Hybrid is rated at almost twice the highway mileage (47 versus 25*), I can buy an awful lot of gas for $26k + tax/license etc. On a GHG basis, it would take many years for the better gas mileage to offset the GHGs involved in building a new car, so I probably can't justify it that way either. No mention of whether there's a spare or not, which is a requirement for me. Judging by the humped up storage space there isn't one stored under the rear cargo area, at least not internally.

Nevertheless, I'll definitely check both out when they're available, cause these cars can (probably) meet my needs. I'd probably want to put some better tires on them, though, and give up a couple mpg.

*This is the value when corrected to 2008 test conditions. Under the test conditions in effect in 2003, it is rated 27 mpg highway.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/0726/Ford-C-Max-Energi-cheapest-plug-in-hybrid-yet-after-rebate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2012/07/29/terminal-velocity-ford-c-max-energi-to-vie-with-volt-prius/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPGe (miles per gallon equivalent): Volt 98, Prius PHV, 95, Energi 95.

Starting sticker price: Volt, $39,145; Prius PHV, $32,760; Energi, $33,750.

U.S.-government tax credit: Volt, $7,500; Prius PHV, $2,500; Energi, $3,750.

Net price after credit: Volt $31,645; Prius PHV, $30,260; Energi, $29,995.

Electric-only range: Volt, about 38 miles; Prius PHV; about 15 miles; Energi, about 20 miles.

Range including gasoline engine: Volt, about 400; Prius PHV; 540 miles; Energi, 550 miles.

And, it seats 3 in the back seat unlike the Volt. Bigger trunk space than the Leaf. It qualifies for CA carpool lanes; it will also qualify for an additional $1,500 CA state rebate. Just under $30k.

I think it's a winner! ;-)

+1 but in your comparisons the 'net' price (excluding discounts which many Chevy Volts owners have enjoyed) each potential buyer should also check for any additional rebates, etc. on other states besides CA -- IL EPA gives a 10% MSRP rebate for the Volt (or a new net of $27,730.50) but nothing for the PiP or Energi due to the fact that the Volt uses a generator instead of a 'regular' ICE so the Volt even though starting at the highest price ends up costing the least -- it's still too small for what we want for the car it would replace but compelling enough --- as to the comparison to an older car, a new car almost never makes out cost wise -- it's a trade off though; for instance if the '03 Subie gets totaled I would doubt you would get much money back on something 9 years old to get another versus a 'new' car with new car replacement insurance as well as reliability, piece of mind, etc., etc. or the other reasons most people rationalize to themselves to buy new. The first C-Max hybrids should start showing up at Ford dealer's soon so hopefully we'll see some personal observations on these here as well ---