Nissan's Andy Palmer on dirty power - "complete bullsh*t"

[mwalsh]

Nissan has an answer to anyone who argues that electric cars using coal-fired electricity are not as clean as conventional ones - quite simply, the claim is "bullsh*t".

That's the assessment of Andy Palmer, the Nissan executive vice-president who is also responsible for the Japanese car maker's electric vehicle roll-out worldwide, in response to a question at the Tokyo motor show challenging the environmental friendliness of battery-powered cars.

Palmer is quick to shoot down the claim that coal-sourced electricity is just as bad for the environment as conventionally fueled vehicles. "I think it's complete bullsh*t," he says.......

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-labels-dirty-power-claims-bullshit-20111205-1odzz.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[adric22]

I've posted this before, but it is worth posting again:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8yjoPTesLU[/youtube]

 

[TRONZ]

Actually, the dirty-coal-powered-EV people are also the "Clean-Coal" people. When these types admit coal and oil are dirty they need to be made immediately accountable. Yes, glad we agree coal and oil are dirty, its now time we replace them with clean energy! Deliver this beat down before they have a chance to flop back to the "Clean-Coal" scam. If they do anyways... ask them again about the dirty-coal-powered-EV. Repeat as needed.

 

[SanDust]

I like Andy Palmer. He seems like a straight shooter, and this argument is like that: straight up without a lot of marketing hyperbole.

 

[BLUEH20]

Clean is a relative term.

Where does the "clean" trail begin? Each arguement has a different staring point for their cleanliness argumeny. Define where "clean" starts and then we can discuss this issue in a rational matter.

My LEAF is charged by pure, 100% hydro power.....about as clean as you can get, until you speak to salmon lover, then things get dirty in a hurry.

My LEAF is a positive step in the right direction. I doubt that I will ever return to a completely ICE vehilce for all my personal use. I do have one as I need AWD and extened mountain range in the winter. When the ICE has to be replaced, it will be some form of electrified vehilce, unless something better comes along in the next few years.

The sales of BEV's, Hybrids as are poor in the grand scheme of things. It appears that given the choice of taking a stand and moving in the "clean" direction: we, the American Consumer, are extremely reluctant to step up and plug in.

 

[klapauzius]

A superficial look at the numbers could indeed show
a pure dirty coal powered Leaf having a higher Co2/Km.

With the current US power mix, this "pure" dirty coal scenario is not realistic.
Even if it were, one would have to worry about just 1 big stack, which could easily be regulated or made cleaner, rather than the thousands of exhausts from ICEs.

 

[tps]

It appears that given the choice of taking a stand and moving in the "clean" direction: we, the American Consumer, are extremely reluctant to step up and plug in.

You nailed it! Most consumers, unwilling to take a step in the right direction, attempt to justify their actions by believing the fantasy that it's really the wrong direction. In today's world of "designer media", they have no shortage of sources that will fuel their fantasies.

 

[johnr]

Almost nobody is plugging in to 100% coal power. So this is really a non-issue. Besides, regardless of where your electricity comes from, you have the power to install solar panels or a wind turbine on your home (assuming you own your home), or generate your own electricity some other way. The point is, with an electric vehicle you have that CHOICE. With a gasoline-fueled vehicle, you're dependent on oil.

The anti-EV crowd loves to harp on the thought that your ride is powered by coal, yet they fail to realize they're just spouting off BS. If someone says that to me, I don't try to argue that my car is still cleaner; rather, I explain that (1) only a small percentage of the electricity in this part of the country comes from coal, and (2) some of the electricity that powers my car comes from the sun, thanks to a couple of solar panels on my house.

 

[padamson1]

...I explain that (1) only a small percentage of the electricity in this part of the country comes from coal, and (2) some of the electricity that powers my car comes from the sun, thanks to a couple of solar panels on my house.

Actually a fairly large percentage of power comes from coal, even here in Oregon where most power is hydroelectric and wind, there is a large plant. The better argument is that it is much easier to clean up a single power plant powering thousands of EV's than clean up the thousands of polluting cars scattered all around with owners who don't think they pollute (that those same clean EV's can replace). Also both the coal power plant and the EV's are converting energy much more efficiently that ICE cars starting and stopping (although the ICE cars do heat the planet more efficiently).

 

[adric22]

Actually a fairly large percentage of power comes from coal, even here in Oregon where most power is hydroelectric and wind, there is a large plant. The better argument is that it is much easier to clean up a single power plant powering thousands of EV's than clean up the thousands of polluting cars scattered all around with owners who don't think they pollute

No.. the better argument is to point out is that they are comparing emissions from the fuel source of one car with the tailpipe of another. It is an apples to oranges comparison. If they want to compare fuel sources, then you need to talk gasoline refinement to them. Let them know that the Leaf's fuel may be dirty to generate, but gasoline is even dirtier to create and the gasoline car spews more pollution out of the tailpipe to boot. So with the Leaf there is one source of pollution, with the gas car there is two.

But my favorite thing to point out to EV haters, which just riles them up to no end, is that I don't need to justify my purchase to them. I bought a Leaf because I think it is a cool car. Probably the same reason they bought their Hummer or Ford F350. It is hard to argue about somebody's purchase when you move the conversation away from attempting to justify it with some greater purpose to just "Because I like it." After all, they make no attempt to justify their purchase, why do we need to justify ours? I mean think about it for a moment. If I justify my car purchase because "it will save me money" or "it is good for the environment" then that whole argument suggests that I'm having to give something up. It suggests that I don't really want to be driving this car, but I do it for some other great cause. The reality couldn't be further from the truth. I love my Leaf and wouldn't trade it for any car out there except maybe a Tesla or Fisker Karma. The fact that I love it is all of the reason I need.

 

[N952JL]

"...If they want to compare fuel sources, then you need to talk gasoline refinement to them. Let them know that the Leaf's fuel may be dirty to generate, but gasoline is even dirtier to create and the gasoline car spews more pollution out of the tailpipe to boot. So with the Leaf there is one source of pollution, with the gas car there is two. ..."

It's about time. this is the line I have used. Yes there is polution creating electricity, but if you want to include that with the Leaf, then you need to enclude refining oil into Gas. Go to where the refineries are and check out the level of stuf they put out. Then come back and talk dirty coal.

 

[hill]

Clean is a relative term.

Where does the "clean" trail begin? Each arguement has a different staring point for their cleanliness argumeny. Define where "clean" starts and then we can discuss this issue in a rational matter.
. . . . . . . . . . snip
The sales of BEV's, Hybrids as are poor in the grand scheme of things. It appears that given the choice of taking a stand and moving in the "clean" direction: we, the American Consumer, are extremely reluctant to step up and plug in.

Hybrid sales are poor? I just read that Prius sales (which are already #1 in Japan) here in the U.S. recently outsold all other models (including SUV's), with the exception of pickups. You don't build Rome in a day. Folks are finally getting less stupid.

 

[SanDust]

Hybrid sales are poor? I just read that Prius sales (which are already #1 in Japan) here in the U.S. recently outsold all other models (including SUV's), with the exception of pickups. You don't build Rome in a day. Folks are finally getting less stupid.

I think what he meant is that hybrid sales account for 2% of the market. That's not a big number. And it's not as if they haven't been available. Hybrids have been around for a decade. Yes the Prius is a success that sells in big numbers, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Yodrak]

That article talks only about CO2 emissions, thus equating the word 'dirty' with CO2 only. But a lot of other things besides CO2 come out of the stacks of power plants and the tail pipes of gasoline-burning automobiles. The words 'dirty' or 'clean' should be used to describe total emissions, or if not be clearly defined as to what they are being used to mean in the specific case.

Going one step further, some coal-burning power plants are dirtier than others just as some gasoline-burning automobiles are dirtier than others. On the whole, the fleet power plants is cleaner than the fleet of automobiles. One should be wary of people who try to compare the cleanest of automobiles with the dirtiest of power plants. Or vice versa.

Nissan has an answer to anyone who argues that electric cars using coal-fired electricity are not as clean as conventional ones - quite simply, the claim is "bullsh*t".

That's the assessment of Andy Palmer, the Nissan executive vice-president who is also responsible for the Japanese car maker's electric vehicle roll-out worldwide, in response to a question at the Tokyo motor show challenging the environmental friendliness of battery-powered cars.

Palmer is quick to shoot down the claim that coal-sourced electricity is just as bad for the environment as conventionally fueled vehicles. "I think it's complete bullsh*t," he says.......

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-labels-dirty-power-claims-bullshit-20111205-1odzz.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[hill]

That article talks only about CO2 emissions, thus equating the word 'dirty' with CO2 only. But a lot of other things besides CO2 come out of the stacks of power plants and the tail pipes of gasoline-burning automobiles. The words 'dirty' or 'clean' should be used to describe total emissions, or if not be clearly defined as to what they are being used to mean in the specific case.

Going one step further, some coal-burning power plants are dirtier than others just as some gasoline-burning automobiles are dirtier than others. On the whole, the fleet power plants is cleaner than the fleet of automobiles. One should be wary of people who try to compare the cleanest of automobiles with the dirtiest of power plants. Or vice versa.

I must admit, I was hoping the article would go into depth about ancilary power wasted - power used to manufacture gas - power to run the military and maintain governments in countries that hate us - power to run hospitals to maintain health destroyed by the smog causing particles, power to drill deaper and deaper, in colder and colder locations, etc. I'm guessing you deduct all the "stuff" from the 36kWh's of gas energy per gallon, and you'd be lucky to have 20kWh's per gallon ROI.

 

[Caracalover]

http://wot.motortrend.com/nissan-exec-calls-dirty-electric-car-claims-bull-142883.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Motor Trend also reported this, my comment there reads:

How much electricity is used to refine a gallon of gasoline? Answer: a lot. Is that electricity use factored in? Of course not. How about the electricity needed to pump it into the car? How about the electricity wasted keeping gas stations open 24/7? Hard to believe anyone would be stupid enough to believe even a hybrid is “greener” than an all electric vehicle like the Leaf, anywhere in the world, at any time. Did you hear about the stream that was polluted by electricity? NO??? Exactly. As for the batteries, people take lithium as a drug – approved by your physician, approved for use in my car. 10,000 miles for about $500 fuel cost. Remember that the next time you support Saudi Arabia by swiping your credit card, which is when I would always cry BULLSHIT! Now my money supports America. Much better use of my cash.

 

[TickTock]

http://wot.motortrend.com/nissan-exec-calls-dirty-electric-car-claims-bull-142883.html

Motor Trend also reported this, my comment there reads:

How much electricity is used to refine a gallon of gasoline? Answer: a lot.

Semantics maybe, but some would call you out on that. Change "electricity" to "total energy" since the actual electricity is in the 1kWh range while the total energy is closer to 7.5kWh.

This number is highly debated (a few times here) and the answer varies depending on what you include. LPG and hydrogen, for example, is used extensively. If you include all energy used for the gasoline production, EV drivers can go further on the energy used to produce a gallon of gasoline than most ICEs can go on that same gallon (assuming you convert that production energy to electricity and give it to us )

Here is a study on the energy used:
Argonne paper

 

[tps]

Remember that the next time you support Saudi Arabia by swiping your credit card,

Which I still do on a bi-weekly basis. Looking to kick that habit this spring when Nissan sells me a LEAF.

 

[Yodrak]

Agreed.

But to be fair and balanced, if one is going to require that the gasoline-burning car be charged with the energy required to get the fuel from the ground to the gas pump, then the elecric car should likewise be charged with the energy required to get the fuel out of the ground, 'refined', and delivered to the socket. Some people do recognize the efficiencies of electric power plants and losses in the transmission and distribution of electricity, but most everyone ignores what it takes to get coal (or natural gas, or oil) out of the ground and prep'ed for use in a power plant.

How much electricity is used to refine a gallon of gasoline? Answer: a lot.

Semantics maybe, but some would call you out on that. Change "electricity" to "total energy" since the actual electricity is in the 1kWh range while the total energy is closer to 7.5kWh.

 

[thew]

For me, I am 100% Solar.. My Leaf is Powerd Only by our L2 EVSE that is tied directly into our PV arrays Battery pack. And there are more like me.. We are truly the Future.. Our systems are producing the electricity needed to charge our EVs.
Before my LEAF I was giving it back to Edison and not getting a dime for my Surplus electricity that I generate at my home.. Now my LEAF has offset that nicely. So No Coal power for MY Leaf ! >)

Solar Power all the Way!