Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

[minispeed]

I don't think the bolt had anything to do with the i3 range update. No who would cross shopp and buy a bolt over an i3 would then choose to buy the i3 because of 40 more miles. If they've got i3 money and they want a bmw the rex cost of doing 120 miles a day for a year is less than $1000. People aren't buying them to save on money on gas it's the cred of a BMW and the cred of the environmental movement and the very unique look (which Bolt is stealing a bit of).

BMW, and all the Germans have a lot ridding on electric because of CAFE, not to mention their government set ambitious EV goals and they are probably further off than any other government with a plan to adopt EVs (just a guess from what I read) . Mercedes has already stated that they plan on doubling all their PHEV range in a few years and I read a while back (not sure if it was pre/post Bolt) that BMW expects a range increase to come out about every 3 years separate from doing model redesigns.

car and driver pretty much took the toughts I had and said it better than I could....

"In a couple of years, Chevrolet may well be chopping big dollars off the sticker of its new Bolt EV and sweetening lease deals like so much Southern iced tea. It probably will have to, in order to move sufficient quantities of a nonpremium compact electric hatchback in order to satisfy both CAFE requirements and zero-emissions mandates."
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-photos-and-info-news

 

[TomT]

I've driven it. Inside it feels every bit as large as the Leaf, and actually larger in some respects... I'm quite happy with the size.

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

 

[TomT]

Nissan has lost most-all credibility with me... They will have to go a long way to win me back...

Nissan may have some surprises up their sleeve. Mostly range vs. price.

 

[mwalsh]

Nissan may have some surprises up their sleeve. Mostly range vs. price.

I'm not even considering another electric vehicle that doesn't have active thermal management until it can be proven unequivocally that it's not needed.

 

[edatoakrun]

...it is possible (Nissan) had only a 150 mile gen 2 in mind, but have to now match Bolt's 60 kWh...

I certainly hope Nissan Does not burden its next mid-size BEV with a ~60 kWh battery pack, and especially one with a pack compromised by inefficient active thermal management.

There is no rational reason why any more than a tiny fraction of BEV buyers (those few who plan to drive more than ~200 miles non-stop ~daily) to buy such a overpriced, overweight, underperforming BEV, as the Bolt.

The Bolt itself looks likely to be a demonstration of the proof-of failure of the concept, costing ~twice as much as a comparably-sized ICEV, and still having only ~half the range, and much longer public refueling times, at much higher cost.

Many seem to be completely oblivious that the rapid decline in BEV prices of ~30% over the last ~five years is primarily due to the rapid drop in battery prices.

Amazing that so many spend so much time complaining about the depreciation of the ~24 kWh LEAF, and yet say they would want to buy a ~60 kWh-battery-pack-with-wheels-attached like the Bolt, that is sure to depreciate much faster, as it's oversized pack inevitably depreciates rapidly in the future.

Nissan official have made several comments recently pointing out that the obviously superior method of enabling BEVs for occasional long-range travel using reliable fast refueling today is by adding a low-kW range extending generator, rather than burdening the BEV with an oversized pack.

I sure hope that not only Nissan, but other BEV manufactures as well, will realize that the Bolt is no more a subject for emulation than the Volt, ELR, or Spark EV were.

 

[Evoforce]

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

The Bolt is not small. GM has published all the numbers. Exterior dimensions, its shorter than the LEAF but about the same width and height.

Interior is very close except for the trunk where the LEAF has a larger trunk.
In fact, for overall passenger volume, it shows the Bolt as 94.4 cu-ft vs 92 for the LEAF. But most individual dimensions are slightly smaller on the Bolt. Some are bigger, such as rear seat legroom is actually 3.2 inches more in the Bolt.

From what I can tell, if the interior space of the LEAF works for you, the Bolt will as well. (except for the trunk).

I don't want a smaller hatch area. I personally haven't seen the Bolt to formulate an exact opinion but I don't want it smaller in any way because the Leaf is already bordering on being too small. Would it be a deal breaker for me? Yes, if they had any real comparable competition at the same price level and range.

 

[evnow]

I'm not even considering another electric vehicle that doesn't have active thermal management until it can be proven unequivocally that it's not needed.

You just need to be get conservative - like a lot of us - and lease the car

 

[LeftieBiker]

Can anyone confirm whether or not the Bolt has a spare on board?

 

[Stoaty]

There is no rational reason why any more than a tiny fraction of BEV buyers (those few who plan to drive more than ~200 miles non-stop ~daily) to buy such a overpriced, overweight, underperforming BEV, as the Bolt.

That's ridiculous when you consider capacity loss over time/cycling, extra energy used for heating/cooling, lowered capacity in cold weather, etc. If I had a 200 mile BEV I could use it for my weekly 140 mile round trip to hike in the mountains, without looking for a QC and spending time using it. If the capacity loss was slow enough, I could still make that trip for 5-8 years (140 miles would be 70% of original capacity). Later, I could supplement with a short charging session on L2 at my sister's house. I'm sure others will find similar reasons why a 200 mile BEV would be useful for them.

 

[LKK]

Can anyone confirm whether or not the Bolt has a spare on board?

My understanding is that it does not. GM is touting self sealing Michelin tires in lieu of the spare.

 

[edatoakrun]

There is no rational reason why any more than a tiny fraction of BEV buyers (those few who plan to drive more than ~200 miles non-stop ~daily) to buy such a overpriced, overweight, underperforming BEV, as the Bolt.

... If I had a 200 mile BEV I could use it for my weekly 140 mile round trip to hike in the mountains...

I'm sure others will find similar reasons why a 200 mile BEV would be useful for them.

If you actually think you need a 60 kWh pack to drive a "weekly 140 mile round trip to hike in the mountains" then the Bolt is for you.

In fact, GM has a long history of encouraging auto buyers' insecurities and anxieties and selling them crap, based on the very irrational perceptions that GM helped to create.

From the 1960's (Not man enough? Make up for your...shortcomings with more cubic inches) to the 2,000's (Not a good enough parent? Show you really care by buying a three-ton-SUV to take your kids to school) GM and other automakers have manipulated demand to meet their profit expectations.

Maybe the Bolt will be a great hit with the American public, among those who find "similar reasons" to buy it, based on their similar irrational anxieties.

And GM, which has done more than any other corporation to instill BEV range anxiety in the car buying public, will deserve a lot of credit for this dubious achievement...

 

[user 10599]

Wow, people here seem to really like Nissan and hate GM or like GM and hate Nissan. Not much middle ground.

While I have misgivings toward GM, I seriously considered the Volt when I bought my Leaf. If the Bolt is as well executed, then I would be willing to consider it. However, I strongly suspect that Nissan will deliver a better vehicle than the Bolt.

If EV1 is their Gen 1, then Spark was their Gen 2. It arrived years after Nissan's Gen 1, and was quite inferior (IMHO). Maybe this Gen 3 will leapfrog ahead of Nissan's Gen 1, but I doubt they will beat Nissan's Gen 2. Of course, I won't know for certain until both are out. At that time, I will research and test drive both and have to see for myself.

Though, I would probably be more inclined to go with an i3 or B with longer range if those options are available. Or I might get tempted by the PHEV C350 before these longer range BEVs arrive.

 

[WetEV]

I certainly hope Nissan Does not burden its next mid-size BEV with a ~60 kWh battery pack, and especially one with a pack compromised by inefficient active thermal management.

Thermal management is mostly a loss in the PNW. Not everywhere.

In normal operation in the PNW, an active cooling system keeps the battery pack hotter than a passive cooling system, which will reduce battery life. Why? Because the battery in my passive cooled Leaf is usually cooler than the set point for cooling.

Yes, DCQC on hot days is an exception. Yes, heat waves here are an exception. A few people with hot garages as well.

While I didn't log battery temperatures, with the outside air temperature at 40F, I arrived at each charge stop with 5TB, and left with 6TB. That sort of temperature rise (~40F) is ok when the air temperature is 40, but not when it is hot, like 80F. (Ok, I think of 80F as being hot. Your temperature perceptions may vary.) I might have turned on an active cooling system for a short period of time at the end of each DCQC session. Maybe. If the air temperature was 80F, the active cooling system would have been on the whole time.

If I was often expecting to drive 240 miles in the BEV, as I did last weekend, I'd like a 60kW battery pack OR active cooling for summer DQCQ.

If it was a once in many years sort of event as it was, I'm ok with the Leaf, as long as public charging doesn't get any worse.

There is no rational reason why any more than a tiny fraction of BEV buyers (those few who plan to drive more than ~200 miles non-stop ~daily) to buy such a overpriced, overweight, underperforming BEV, as the Bolt.

If I was doing the Canada run weekly (somewhat longer, 130 miles one way), as I was a decade ago, I'd think about spending more money to need only destination charging and enable full speed trips. This would also avoid any worries while waiting in line at the border (which can take hours), and more.

 

[evnow]

Chad over at TMC has a very plausible theory on why GM made the Bolt. It is all for PR - corporate image (and they do need to sell EVs for ZEV credits). That is why they announced the car early - didn't care about cannibalizing Volt 2 sales etc.

If this theory is right, and I think it is, Bolt will be somewhat like a Ford Focus EV. Lot of PR and fanfare before release and little effort afterwards. If you go back and look at posts about FFE before it was released, people argued it would sink Leaf.

I'm fairly sure Leaf 2 will "trump" Bolt - because Nissan is more serious about it.

There are posts at gm-volt saying Bolt is mainly a rental/fleet car offering. Individuals will prefer Model 3.

 

[mwalsh]

Chad over at TMC has a very plausible theory on why GM made the Bolt. It is all for PR - corporate image (and they do need to sell EVs for ZEV credits). That is why they announced the car early - didn't care about cannibalizing Volt 2 sales etc.

If this theory is right, and I think it is, Bolt will be somewhat like a Ford Focus EV. Lot of PR and fanfare before release and little effort afterwards. If you go back and look at posts about FFE before it was released, people argued it would sink Leaf.

I'm fairly sure Leaf 2 will "trump" Bolt - because Nissan is more serious about it.

There are posts at gm-volt saying Bolt is mainly a rental/fleet car offering. Individuals will prefer Model 3.

A) If Bolt is at least as well supported as Volt I will buy it.

B) I will never, ever buy a Model 3 (or any other Tesla product) new based on my personal principles. I don't like Elon Musk, and will never knowingly put a single dollar in his pocket. Note that still leaves me the option of buying pre-owned, though obviously not through the Tesla CPO program, so if you ever see me in a Model S someday...well, that.

C) From what I may or may not know of the Gen 2 LEAF, it may or may not be technically competitive with other offerings, but it may not have much of a "wow factor".

 

[golfcart]

What if the leaf is just gonna be cheaper with nicer features? What do you think range is worth in a dollar per mile amount? For instance, if you could get a 2017 Leaf with 125 mile range for $25000 after incentives or a 2017 Bolt with with 200 mile range for $30000 after incentives would you buy the Bolt? Or what if the 2017 Leaf has a 250 mile range option but costs $33000 after incentives would you get the high range Leaf over the Bolt?

I personally would take the Leaf at $25k because there are very few trips I can think of where I need to travel more than 100 but less than 200 miles between charges. I L2 charge overnight in my garage, my work commute is 50 miles round trip and I have a dealership a mile away I can charge at in a pinch, my wife's commute is 12 miles round trip, the beach is 20 miles round trip, my parents are 20 miles round trip, all major shopping an entertainment we use is within 25 miles round trip. If we want to go to Richmond, DC, Raleigh, Charlotte, or anyplace beyond that we're gonna take the Chinatown bus, Amtrak, or an ICE car anyways. The bump to a 200 mile range would basically do nothing for us aside from allowing us to charge every other night vs nightly.

These range discussions start to become like HP discussions you have with ICE cars in some ways. Like when the mustang GT gets 400hp the Camaro SS has to get 410. Realistically speaking a decent size 4 banger is sufficient for any car under about 3500lbs but there are certainly situations where a V6 or even a V8 would be nice (highway merging, passing, terrain, hauling ass) and you have to ask yourself what the extra hp is worth to you in dollars.

I realize that range is also a barrier to widespread adoption, so that is another angle to consider, but I think this is a good angle to look at as well.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

A larger variety is always good. Under $20k cars would be nice.

 

[golfcart]

A larger variety is always good. Under $20k cars would be nice.

Just go buy a remaining 2015 right now, guaranteed you'll pay less than $20k after incentives.

 

[LKK]

What if the leaf is just gonna be cheaper with nicer features? What do you think range is worth in a dollar per mile amount? For instance, if you could get a 2017 Leaf with 125 mile range for $25000 after incentives or a 2017 Bolt with with 200 mile range for $30000 after incentives would you buy the Bolt? Or what if the 2017 Leaf has a 250 mile range option but costs $33000 after incentives would you get the high range Leaf over the Bolt?

I personally would take the Leaf at $25k because there are very few trips I can think of where I need to travel more than 100 but less than 200 miles between charges. I L2 charge overnight in my garage, my work commute is 50 miles round trip and I have a dealership a mile away I can charge at in a pinch, my wife's commute is 12 miles round trip, the beach is 20 miles round trip, my parents are 20 miles round trip, all major shopping an entertainment we use is within 25 miles round trip. If we want to go to Richmond, DC, Raleigh, Charlotte, or anyplace beyond that we're gonna take the Chinatown bus, Amtrak, or an ICE car anyways. The bump to a 200 mile range would basically do nothing for us aside from allowing us to charge every other night vs nightly.

These range discussions start to become like HP discussions you have with ICE cars in some ways. Like when the mustang GT gets 400hp the Camaro SS has to get 410. Realistically speaking a decent size 4 banger is sufficient for any car under about 3500lbs but there are certainly situations where a V6 or even a V8 would be nice (highway merging, passing, terrain, hauling ass) and you have to ask yourself what the extra hp is worth to you in dollars.

I realize that range is also a barrier to widespread adoption, so that is another angle to consider, but I think this is a good angle to look at as well.

Awesome post! People often buy much more than they really need. The only thing I would add is the need for range consistency over a reasonable period of time.

 

[GRA]

What if the leaf is just gonna be cheaper with nicer features? What do you think range is worth in a dollar per mile amount? For instance, if you could get a 2017 Leaf with 125 mile range for $25000 after incentives or a 2017 Bolt with with 200 mile range for $30000 after incentives would you buy the Bolt? Or what if the 2017 Leaf has a 250 mile range option but costs $33000 after incentives would you get the high range Leaf over the Bolt?

I personally would take the Leaf at $25k because there are very few trips I can think of where I need to travel more than 100 but less than 200 miles between charges. I L2 charge overnight in my garage, my work commute is 50 miles round trip and I have a dealership a mile away I can charge at in a pinch, my wife's commute is 12 miles round trip, the beach is 20 miles round trip, my parents are 20 miles round trip, all major shopping an entertainment we use is within 25 miles round trip. If we want to go to Richmond, DC, Raleigh, Charlotte, or anyplace beyond that we're gonna take the Chinatown bus, Amtrak, or an ICE car anyways. The bump to a 200 mile range would basically do nothing for us aside from allowing us to charge every other night vs nightly.

These range discussions start to become like HP discussions you have with ICE cars in some ways. Like when the mustang GT gets 400hp the Camaro SS has to get 410. Realistically speaking a decent size 4 banger is sufficient for any car under about 3500lbs but there are certainly situations where a V6 or even a V8 would be nice (highway merging, passing, terrain, hauling ass) and you have to ask yourself what the extra hp is worth to you in dollars.

I realize that range is also a barrier to widespread adoption, so that is another angle to consider, but I think this is a good angle to look at as well.

Awesome post! People often buy much more than they really need. The only thing I would add is the need for range consistency over a reasonable period of time.

That's what greater initial range gets you, and is why bigger batteries/greater range provide a large increment of owner value. It's not that people need 200 miles of range on a daily basis, it's that they need 70-80 miles of range for a decade or more while using heat/defrost/AC in inclement conditions with no worries. Until such time as a battery that suffers essentially no degradation arrives (or battery leasing with guaranteed capacity becomes widespread), a big battery that can provide 150-200 miles of initial range (or lesser guaranteed range via hiding capacity, ala' the Volt) is needed to handle people's routine needs over the long term. And not just the original owner, because unless the car has practical utility over the long-term it has little value on the used market, guaranteeing that BEVs will remain throw-away cars.

That doesn't change the fact that for now PHEVs remain the best choice for single-auto households, as well as retaining more long-term value as affordable used cars.