Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

[GRA]

I can see those of you in hot climates having issues with battery depredation and feeling that thermal management is a must. I'm in a much more battery friendly environment, temp span of -10C to 30C with maybe a week a year that hits 42C.

The thing is that Nissan has slowly made improvements to the Leaf. They've manufactured the most EVs, for the longest period of time. They have the most experience with EVs. The Bolt will still technically be a generation 1 EV for GM. The Leaf 2 will be a second generation car with what, the 5th generation battery pack?

Yet some of you are trying to suggest GM is in the Lead?

Maybe I'm baised but I've worked on enough GM products, they had a hard time wiring an alternator that wasn't a joke to look at. The Japanese are the best at electrical systems, so the EV is a natural fit for them.

The Spark was GM's 1st gen BEV (not counting the EV1) using two entirely different pack chemistries, LiFePO4 for the first year and then apparently LiMn204 since (the latter was a retrograde step from a performance standpoint IMO, but improved commonality with the Volt and lowered cost), and the Bolt is Gen 2. And IMO the Volt remains the best-engineered PEV built to date, with a powertrain that was at least two years ahead of everyone else. The only problem with it is that GM hasn't put it in the CUV everyone's been asking for, and instead shot themselves in the foot with the massively overpriced and under-performing for the money ELR. So far, I'm impressed with the Bolt's specs, and look forward to seeing some reviews.

 

[pkulak]

Yeah, let's not try to call into question GM's EV credentials. Not to mention that the Bolt is half LG. You'd be even sillier to try to question LG's electronics cred.

 

[evnow]

And people who care enough about the environment to buy an EV are a slightly larger niche.

No - the niche he is in is very-very tiny - even within the niche EV segment.

Remember he is not neutral on environment - but actively against it (think Sen. Inhofe).

NavyCuda is right - companies that want EVs to succeed - like Tesla - are making vehicles that appeal to a broader audience. Everybody wants a Model S, mostly because it's one of the quickest cars available.

Everybody "wants" a Tesla because it has become a status symbol/aspirational item. For something to be an aspirational item - it has to be unattainable to most - by definition. Like a Ferrari. That is exactly the opposite of mass market where Nissan & Chevy want to play.

You see a lot of people who think if only Leaf was "good looking" or "fast" it would sell "much" better. I don't think it is based on reality.

To sell much better Leaf needs to
- have more range
- cheaper
- better infrastructure

Yes, the hard things. Not the easier things.

 

[NavyCuda]

When I say I don't care about the environment, it's that I don't care for the eco-warrior crusade. I live in the most beautiful part of the world, but only an idiot would believe paying higher taxes, carbon taxes and tax credits will save the Earth. All it does is empty the pockets of the working class.

If we really want to save the environment we would work towards that goal instead of making it a profit industry. We can't ween ourselves off liquid fuels over night but there are a number of option that can help alleviate ourselves from middle eastern blood oil.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I can see those of you in hot climates having issues with battery depredation and feeling that thermal management is a must. I'm in a much more battery friendly environment, temp span of -10C to 30C with maybe a week a year that hits 42C.

The thing is that Nissan has slowly made improvements to the Leaf. They've manufactured the most EVs, for the longest period of time. They have the most experience with EVs. The Bolt will still technically be a generation 1 EV for GM. The Leaf 2 will be a second generation car with what, the 5th generation battery pack?

Yet some of you are trying to suggest GM is in the Lead?

Maybe I'm baised but I've worked on enough GM products, they had a hard time wiring an alternator that wasn't a joke to look at. The Japanese are the best at electrical systems, so the EV is a natural fit for them.

The Spark was GM's 1st gen BEV (not counting the EV1) using two entirely different pack chemistries, LiFePO4 for the first year and then apparently LiMn204 since (the latter was a retrograde step from a performance standpoint IMO, but improved commonality with the Volt and lowered cost), and the Bolt is Gen 2. And IMO the Volt remains the best-engineered PEV built to date, with a powertrain that was at least two years ahead of everyone else. The only problem with it is that GM hasn't put it in the CUV everyone's been asking for, and instead shot themselves in the foot with the massively overpriced and under-performing for the money ELR. So far, I'm impressed with the Bolt's specs, and look forward to seeing some reviews.

The Spark is a compliance vehicle sold at a low in California.
The Volt is a hybrid with little interior room and an engine, letting it get buy with a smaller battery and knowing there's always the engine to let it provide heat/cool/electricity if necessary.

The Bolt will be the first nationally available BEV that GM makes available.

All that said, I'm sure they've learned from their EV experiments.

 

[GRA]

The Spark was GM's 1st gen BEV (not counting the EV1) using two entirely different pack chemistries, LiFePO4 for the first year and then apparently LiMn204 since (the latter was a retrograde step from a performance standpoint IMO, but improved commonality with the Volt and lowered cost), and the Bolt is Gen 2. And IMO the Volt remains the best-engineered PEV built to date, with a powertrain that was at least two years ahead of everyone else. The only problem with it is that GM hasn't put it in the CUV everyone's been asking for, and instead shot themselves in the foot with the massively overpriced and under-performing for the money ELR. So far, I'm impressed with the Bolt's specs, and look forward to seeing some reviews.

The Spark is a compliance vehicle sold at a low in California.

And Oregon and Maryland, and has so far sold around 4,400.

The Volt is a hybrid with little interior room and an engine, letting it get buy with a smaller battery and knowing there's always the engine to let it provide heat/cool/electricity if necessary.

Yes, it's a (plug-in) hybrid, and a very well-engineered one, far better suited to mainstream users or anyone who only has a single car than 1st gen affordable BEVs. As with all other cars, it doesn't meet everyone's needs.

The Bolt will be the first nationally available BEV that GM makes available. All that said, I'm sure they've learned from their EV experiments.

While the bolded bit is true, how is that relevant to NavyCuda's contention that the Bolt is a Gen 1 BEV, as it obviously isn't?

 

[NavyCuda]

The Bolt will be GMs first mass market battery only electric vehicle. The EV1 was only available to lease holders, you couldn't buy it and it was basically an exercise in market research.

My Leaf however, is my Leaf. Yes it's financed, but Nissan can't take it back. There isn't a single EV1 left in private hands, because it never left GMs ownership.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The Volt is a hybrid with little interior room and an engine, letting it get buy with a smaller battery and knowing there's always the engine to let it provide heat/cool/electricity if necessary.

I didn't know this until recently myself, but the Volt has electric heat. It also has electric A/C, so the above is not very accurate. Even the Prius PHEV has electric A/C, as do all Priuses.

 

[GRA]

The Volt is a hybrid with little interior room and an engine, letting it get buy with a smaller battery and knowing there's always the engine to let it provide heat/cool/electricity if necessary.

I didn't know this until recently myself, but the Volt has electric heat. It also has electric A/C, so the above is not very accurate. Even the Prius PHEV has electric A/C, as do all Priuses.

The key phrase in the above is "if necessary". The Volt can run the HVAC system off the battery, but in hybrid mode it provides waste heat, or when the ambient temp is below either 35 or 15 deg. F. depending on setting, the engine will start to provide heat. It can always generate electricity for the motor when running in hybrid mode. We've veered way off-topic (mea culpa).

 

[LeftieBiker]

the key phrase in the above is "if necessary". The Volt can run the HVAC system off the battery, but in hybrid mode it provides waste heat, or when the ambient temp is below either 35 or 15 deg. F. depending on setting, the engine will start to provide heat. And it can always generate electricity for the motor when running in hybrid mode.

I understand that, but since "heat/cool/electricity" describes pretty much all of the car's functions, it would be less confusing to just say "more range" or even just "energy." Prius drivers, who have to run the engine to get heat, could easily be confused. I was until recently, because for some bizarre reason the Volt's advertising doesn't seem to ever mention its electric cabin heater.

 

[evnow]

I think the important thing is - Bolt is making Nissan & Tesla (yes, even Tesla) react. I sincerely hope Chevy is serious about selling Bolt, but I won't be surprised if they sell it in smaller numbers than they can actually sell it.

The other thing is - Bolt will only have a few months or a year's lead. A lot of others will be bringing long range EVs that compete (and in some cases handily beat) with Bolt.

For eg. look at Kia Niro or Hyundai Ioniq. They will probably have the BEV around the same time Bolt comes out. Even if they only have 150 miles range, given they are bigger and in the sweet spot of the type of vehicles Americans prefer, they can easily compete with Chevy.

Theoretically Chevy can sell a lot more Bolts than Nissan Leaf 2 or Hyundai/Kia BEVs, since they have a lot more dealers and better coverage in US. But, GM's dealers are known to be actively resistant to plugins and may not push Bolt.

 

[Evoforce]

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

 

[LeftieBiker]

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

The Leaf has a lot of extra nose. How do the interiors compare?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I don't personally think the next gen LEAF will be competitive with the Bolt. I can't say why I feel that way, but I just don't.

Such negativity! I'm fascinated how we can own a Leaf...for about the same time...with similar experiences...and come out of it with such different viewpoints. I think Nissan was a leader in the EV revolution, and I think they will be again. The economics have changed in that I don't think any of us would have predicted gasoline < $2 almost 5 years after we bought our Leafs, but life is full of surprises. I still think the massive investment in platforms and battery technology (maybe only Tesla has invested more) will pay off in the long run for Nissan.

Agreed.
Nissan may have some surprises up their sleeve. Mostly range vs. price.
Or maybe not. Maybe GM is planning to sell the Bolt at a loss to make the others give up.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

The Bolt is not small. GM has published all the numbers. Exterior dimensions, its shorter than the LEAF but about the same width and height.

Interior is very close except for the trunk where the LEAF has a larger trunk.
In fact, for overall passenger volume, it shows the Bolt as 94.4 cu-ft vs 92 for the LEAF. But most individual dimensions are slightly smaller on the Bolt. Some are bigger, such as rear seat legroom is actually 3.2 inches more in the Bolt.

From what I can tell, if the interior space of the LEAF works for you, the Bolt will as well. (except for the trunk).

 

[LeftieBiker]

If the Bolt has a donut spare, it will have more interior room than my leaf, which has an Altima 3/4 donut spare taking up lots of cargo area.

 

[garsh]

I just wish the Bolt wasn't smaller than the Leaf. SIZE MATTERS!

The Bolt is not small. GM has published all the numbers. Exterior dimensions, its shorter than the LEAF but about the same width and height.

So... it's not smaller, but it's smaller.
Got it.


Anyway, they are both small cars. I hope the Model 3 ends up being a little larger.

 

[minispeed]

I saw the bolt in person at the Detroit show. It's very small on the outside. I don't consider the leaf to look like a compact car, it looks like a midsize car to me (for anyone who's older than me their definition of my compact will probably be sub-compact and my midsize their compact). The bolt definitely looks like a compact car. For comparison the Sonic is listed as a midsize and I feel it looks like a compact. I'm not going to bash it for that, I love compacts and sub compacts but I do believe that in North America many people will look at it in the show room and never get in it because it's too small and it's a hatch back.

Cu Ft isn't everything, especially when you're talking about a car that someone, or 4 people would want to spend the time to drive 200 miles in. My last three cars, leaf, prius, kia optima, and my want to buy and have test driven Tesla. 92, 94, 102, 94 cu ft. The difference in space for the driver in the leaf and prius is much more than 2% total interior volume would imply. The difference between the 94 prius and 102 kia for the driver almost nothing (8.5% more but it doesn't feel like you gained any more than going from leaf to prius got you). However the same 94 for both the prius and tesla.... yes they felt about the same amount of space but it's the way you feel when you're in that space..... now back to the bolt I felt that I would be bumping elbows with the front seat passenger and or fighting for an arm rest. I felt that I wouldn't be able to stretch out my legs (6'4") the way I can in the prius and tesla. I can't in the leaf but that's alright because I won't ever be in it for more than an hour.

I think that the Tesla will be about the same size in cu ft as the leaf, 92ish but will probably have a much better lay out and allow you to feel better in that space. Also in terms of sales look at any euro/Japanese hatch that they sell and bring over to North America they also put it in a sedan version and they sell way more.

 

[Nubo]

I think the important thing is - Bolt is making Nissan & Tesla (yes, even Tesla) react. ...

Agreed. I might re-title the thread:

"Nissan: We Can Match Bolt. But we won't until we really have to".

Not that there's anything wrong with that. They're understandably trying to recoup the huge initial expense of their EV program. Until something like the Bolt or Model 3 comes along and starts eating their lunch, they're probably content to take a breather and work the unit cost down. And there may well be a synergy once more viable offerings are on the market, increasing sales for the genre as a whole, more than any incremental improvements to LEAF might do on their own.

 

[evnow]

"We Can Match Bolt. But we won't until we really have to".

Not that there's anything wrong with that. They're understandably trying to recoup the huge initial expense of their EV program. Until something like the Bolt or Model 3 comes along and starts eating their lunch, they're probably content to take a breather and work the unit cost down. And there may well be a synergy once more viable offerings are on the market, increasing sales for the genre as a whole, more than any incremental improvements to LEAF might do on their own.

The implication of this comment could be that Nissan is all ready with 200 mile battery but won't release it until necessary. I think the truth is - they are not yet ready and their plan was to come out with Leaf2 in Q1 '17. Now they may be forced to accelerate the plan. Also it is possible they had only a 150 mile gen 2 in mind, but have to now match Bolt's 60 kWh.

Bolt has also possibly pushed i3 to up the range quick!ly.

Now, all this could be because of model 3, rather than Bolt too.