Next San Diego EVent: Sat, Aug 9, 2014, CANCELLED

[TonyWilliams]

Hello everyone! Thank you for allowing me to speak at the event and get a chance to meet all of you. I am a new sales specialist with ECOtality..

Thanks for coming. I hope you're as enthusiastic a year from now !!!

We'll let ya know when the next event will be, and will likely be announced right in this thread.

Tony

 

[TonyWilliams]

Fast chargers are just pushing on a string. EV Oasis has a rest stop model which we can hope works. Other than that there is no model

Well, there is a consensus model forming, I think. EV Oasis intends to place the units within 500 feet of the freeway. My two potential locations meet that criteria, both within 500 feet of the 15 freeway. Obviously, a rest stop model is a much more expensive version of this.

Issue 1 - Close to freeway or other major highway interchange.

Issue 2 - What to do while charging. The units can't be in a dark alley way when folks will want Starbucks/Restaurant/shopping within walking distance.

Issue 3 - Mitigating the demand charge.
a. Limit the power delivered to below the threshold.
b. Allow full power, but limit the time to allow less than the fee threshold to take effect (say, 5 min within 15 min window).
c. Augment the power above the fee threshold with batteries, generators.
d. For locations that can piggyback on an existing high electrical demand user, a switching device that cuts out other high demand items like A/C or other air handlers during the charge event to not make their already ginormous demand fee get bigger.

Issue 4 - Having a DC charger that isn't always broken. Unfortunately, this first wave of chargers, so far, have terrible up times. Maintenance contracts aren't good enough.... they need to work.

Issue 5 - Insurance. The DC charger almost has to be UL listed to get cost effective insurance.

Issue 6 - Up front cost... but then, any business has this problem. We've found that with $100 million available, Ecotality isn't setting the world on fire in San Diego. So, up front costs have to be compatible with all the previously mentioned issues.

You'll note, I didn't include a pricing model as an issue. Like any new commodity, it will take a while for a consensus acceptable charge fee to develop after the units have been up and running. We can only guess at this point, and probably not too well !!

I also didn't include finding the locations as an issue. There are companies that want the notoriety of being uber-green, or just attracting potentially new business. If giving up that parking spot or two is their only realized cost, then it's a relatively easy sell. It's when there are lots of strings attached that it becomes a big issue.

 

[TNleaf]

Fast chargers are just pushing on a string. EV Oasis has a rest stop model which we can hope works. Other than that there is no model

Well, there is a consensus model forming, I think. EV Oasis intends to place the units within 500 feet of the freeway. My two potential locations meet that criteria, both within 500 feet of the 15 freeway. Obviously, a rest stop model is a much more expensive version of this.

Issue 1 - Close to freeway or other major highway interchange.

Issue 2 - What to do while charging. The units can't be in a dark alley way when folks will want Starbucks/Restaurant/shopping within walking distance.

Issue 3 - Mitigating the demand charge.
a. Limit the power delivered to below the threshold.
b. Allow full power, but limit the time to allow less than the fee threshold to take effect (say, 5 min within 15 min window).
c. Augment the power above the fee threshold with batteries, generators.
d. For locations that can piggyback on an existing high electrical demand user, a switching device that cuts out other high demand items like A/C or other air handlers during the charge event to not make their already ginormous demand fee get bigger.

Issue 4 - Having a DC charger that isn't always broken. Unfortunately, this first wave of chargers, so far, have terrible up times. Maintenance contracts aren't good enough.... they need to work.

Issue 5 - Insurance. The DC charger almost has to be UL listed to get cost effective insurance.

Issue 6 - Up front cost... but then, any business has this problem. We've found that with $100 million available, Ecotality isn't setting the world on fire in San Diego. So, up front costs have to be compatible with all the previously mentioned issues.

You'll note, I didn't include a pricing model as an issue. Like any new commodity, it will take a while for a consensus acceptable charge fee to develop after the units have been up and running. We can only guess at this point, and probably not too well !!

I also didn't include finding the locations as an issue. There are companies that want the notoriety of being uber-green, or just attracting potentially new business. If giving up that parking spot or two is their only realized cost, then it's a relatively easy sell. It's when there are lots of strings attached that it becomes a big issue.

This may be a non-issue in CA (with the AB475), but a huge issue here in TN has been ICE-ing. Depending on the chosen location (a majority here being at a restaurant), ICE-ing is still a possibility. Now if only TN would pass a law similar to AB475, the SUV/gas guzzler drivers may think twice before parking in front of a huge contraption with an LCD monitor and a sign that says EVs only. If you check out plug share for the locations here in TN, most of the L3s are always ICEd.

 

[garygid]

... but you can get a membership, move the Car2Go vehicle ...

With respect to the question about using the a less expensive Nissan fast charger, the Nissan model hits that price point but stripping out the electronics that operators need. Once you add those back in the price isn't all that different than those from competitors.

1. I got the Car2Go membership just for the ability to move their cars out of a charging spot.

2. The controls and monitoring are about $500 additional (if that much), NOT an extra $20,000 per QC machine.

Are you saying that it is impossible to use the Nissan (under $9999) QC for paid access?

 

[SanDust]

Well, there is a consensus model forming, I think. EV Oasis intends to place the units within 500 feet of the freeway. My two potential locations meet that criteria, both within 500 feet of the 15 freeway. Obviously, a rest stop model is a much more expensive version of this.

Here is the issue. If the cost of putting in and maintaining a fast charger over three years is $140,000 (I put in $60K for maintenance which may be low given, as you mention, that the chargers are not robust) that cost has to be recovered over three years or 1100 days. That's $127/day. This number may not seem that large but you physically can't serve 127 cars a day which means you have to make multiple dollars per charging event. Pick your number for how much demand there would be, keeping in mind that Poisson probability and just time of day suggests that for even low numbers of arrivals you'll have several cars showing up at the same time, making the wait longer and the service less desirable. Realistically you end up having to make $3 or $4 per transaction or a markup of $.25-$.35 above the cost of the electricity per kWh, which with demand charges would make the kWh to the consumer very expensive indeed.

The obvious way to crack the nut is to follow the truck stop or gas station model and make money from selling coffee and sodas and chips and other stuff, hopefully breaking even on the charging. This is the only model that I can see working, but as you mention this involves more expense.

Are you saying that it is impossible to use the Nissan (under $9999) QC for paid access?

Basically yes. The Nissan charger is cheap because the expensive content has been taken out. One quick way to check would be to ask EV Oasis if they plan to use the Nissan charger. No idea what they would say but my guess is either "NO" or "MAYBE" which isn't the answer you'd get if the charger was as cheap as the $10K teaser suggests. Proof in the pudding so to speak. Understandable why a Nissan dealer might buy one -- controlled access and they wouldn't be charging customers anyway -- but for a business trying to make a buck on charging it's not going to be a good choice.

 

[garygid]

What "expensive" content?

The equivalent of a $300 PC or netbook, a few robust buttons,
a $36 credit card reader, and a "window" for the display screen?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I'm not sure I understand how Demand Charges work on a large-scale facility.

For example, Legoland in Carlsbad. Their power footprint must be enormous for one address, with variations throughout the day. It seems like they could add a 50kW load with just minimal management (maybe throttling during peak times).

Likewise for UCSD, the San Diego Airport, Convention Center, and so on..

Wouldn't an L3 charger be "lost in the noise" of high-power loads like chillers and pumps?

 

[Randy]

Very true, the larger the facility, the better chance to mask the DC Fast Charge load in the "noise" or at least in the management of various loads that can be throttled back accordingly if the facility has an energy management system.

Probably the worst candidate for a DC FC is one who has a steady state load most of the time. Then the 60kW peak of the DC FC would "jack the peak" (to use a technical term) and kick off higher demand charges...

 

[SanDust]

What "expensive" content?

The equivalent of a $300 PC or netbook, a few robust buttons,
a $36 credit card reader, and a "window" for the display screen?

Right. And the Leaf is a Versa with a $12K battery pack and costs $24,000 to manufacture. Touchscreen interfaces, smartphone applications, security, internet connected ads, energy management, multiple ports and so forth are all expensive to develop and the costs are spread over a small number of installations. But there is no point arguing with me. Just contact EV Oasis and ask them. They've been looking at these types of costs for quite a while. If the Nissan charger is such a screaming deal they'll be all over it.

 

[electricfuture]

Sadly, my suggestion of buying a Volt at $40,000 and putting it on blocks with a meter and charge card reader to make it charging station seems practical in this mess. You only need an occasional fuel truck delivery to keep it going and AAA could provide that!

Really though concerning the use of the stripped down Nissan chargers, there is existing low cost equipment available in most gas stations that can read the cost of a charge from multiple "pumps/charging units" and transmit the data to a central point or cashier for the transaction everywhere - just go to your local AM/PM. No need to re-invent the wheel.

Moreover, power substations use capacitor banks to mitigate surges in demand that can be "charged up" off peak or slowly during the day. Capacitor banks are DC in nature - no conversion necessary, not even if they are charged by Solar Panels, which are also DC. The control circuits are DC, as are the "super caps" in the Leaf braking system that charges the battery.

Then there are the propane "emergency generators" you can find at every hospital and at many substations as back up control/communications power. These units are not expensive and very reliable.

The point here is that we are still having problems thinking outside the box. First it is fossil fuels/ICEs burned into our consciousness since childhood and then it is A/C electricity as a power source. Look as the absurdity of the LED light bulbs. LEDs (D/C) have been in hand held calculators for 30 years, but now they need a very expensive base to convert the A/C power in our homes to D/C. The LED itself is inexpensive.

I am putting my DC thinking cap on to see if there is a way around the initial and operating costs. First thought is a car port sunshade with PV panels like the ones being installed in university parking lots in the county with an under hung capacitor bank all mass produced in a factory and installed on simple footings. While you wait you can sit inside a pre-fab building drinking coffee. Yes I like the EV Oasis idea.

 

[tbleakne]

Here is the issue. If the cost of putting in and maintaining a fast charger over three years is $140,000 (I put in $60K for maintenance which may be low given, as you mention, that the chargers are not robust) that cost has to be recovered over three years or 1100 days. That's $127/day. This number may not seem that large but you physically can't serve 127 cars a day which means you have to make multiple dollars per charging event. Pick your number for how much demand there would be, keeping in mind that Poisson probability and just time of day suggests that for even low numbers of arrivals you'll have several cars showing up at the same time, making the wait longer and the service less desirable. Realistically you end up having to make $3 or $4 per transaction or a markup of $.25-$.35 above the cost of the electricity per kWh, which with demand charges would make the kWh to the consumer very expensive indeed.

Are you saying that it is impossible to use the Nissan (under $9999) QC for paid access?

Basically yes. The Nissan charger is cheap because the expensive content has been taken out. One quick way to check would be to ask EV Oasis if they plan to use the Nissan charger. No idea what they would say but my guess is either "NO" or "MAYBE" which isn't the answer you'd get if the charger was as cheap as the $10K teaser suggests. Proof in the pudding so to speak. Understandable why a Nissan dealer might buy one -- controlled access and they wouldn't be charging customers anyway -- but for a business trying to make a buck on charging it's not going to be a good choice.

It is premature to budget $140K over 3 years. The cost of the "station" itself will be significant, but I have no problem with your suggested transaction fees. I would pay more for the ability to extend my range without excessive waiting.

Nissan says they were able to lower the price of their new L3 through technology advancement. Unlike the over-priced Chargepoint L2s, most of the cost in a QC L3 is in the high-power conversion of 3-phase AC to ~ 400V DC. I don't believe the Nissan model is cheap because they might have left out fee collection.

I agree they need to provide for the possibility of more than one customer at a time, but everyone won't need a full 30 minutes. I have seen descriptions of QC units that have 2 Chademo cables for one unit, so that a waiting customer can get get his or her CC verified, plug in their car using the second cable, and go inside. When the charging of the first customer completes, power automatically ping-pongs to the second cable without delay.

I don't believe oasis is using the Nissan charger because:
1. The charger in their pictures doesn't look like the Nissan charger. It has a different shape, not as skinny, so it is not just the same unit with a different paint job. Of course it is possible the unit in the pictures is just CG.
2. evoasis clearly had to commit to a charger supplier well before Nissan's announcement.

evoais is very definitely following the modern service station model by planning to make some money on snacks, impulse purchases, etc. but the billing for the electrical "fuel" will be the primary revenue stream, just like it is for gasoline.

evoasis hints that they are going to be creative to moderate demand charges. They could limit the charging rate to 30 kW rather than 40 or higher rates. They could install 15 kW of solar, and limit the charging rate further when the sun is not shining. Just 20 kWh of reserve battery capacity would shave a lot off the peak, but that is probably too expensive for the initial roll-out.

 

[tbleakne]

Angus Clark of EV Oasis spoke next, with goals for 100 - 200 DC charger in 36 months, with a goal to all be less than 500 feet from a freeway. He is planning an "event" sometime in Feb, and has invited us all to attend.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Finally, Randy Walsh of Meissner Jacquet announced his $60,000 budget program, with chargers in Santa Isabel (near Julian), Ramona, and La Mesa. He fully intends to invite us all should he get that first Ecotality QC up and running!!!

Tony

Looking forward to hearing about the February Evoasis event. If it features a working QC, perhaps I could attend.

Tony, do you recall what was Randy Walsh's schedule for installing his chargers ? The locations at Santa Isabel and Ramona could be very useful to me this Spring, if these locations will be open to the public.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, do you recall what was Randy Walsh's schedule for installing his chargers ? The locations at Santa Isabel and Ramona could be very useful to me this Spring, if these locations will be open to the public.

Like all these projects, it seems fluid. Hopefully, we'll have an announcement soon.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Saturday, Feb 25, 2012, 9am-11pm

Hamburger Factory restaurant
14122 Midland Road
Poway, CA 92064

Phone: 858-486-4575
http://hamburgerfactory.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


9am - 10am: Arrivals and breakfast. Parking in the lot across Midland from the train station, where we will have (hopefully) all the cars together.

10am - 11am: General meeting in a bigger meeting room!


Hopefully we'll have a new Quick Charger to celebrate somewhere (towards Julian) that we can all drive to after!

Tony

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is interesting:

Jan 24, Tuesday, 6pm

BMW ActiveE presentation at:

CCSE
8690 Balboa Ave, Ste 100
San Diego, CA 92123

http://energycenter.org/index.php?option=com_civicrm&task=civicrm/event/info&reset=1&id=737" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Uccello]

I"m out of town on Feb 25th but will try to make the BMW presentation on the 24th.

-john

 

[electricfuture]

I notified Mike Cully of Car2Go as he said he would like to attend our next meeting.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Other Guests confirmed: Richard Adbala, Operations Manager for Aladdin Airport parking to discuss their addition of 500 new parking spots, 115 of them with charging for EVs. In addition, they have valet parking now for EVs to charge on 120v, and are in discussion for a DC charger.

 

[walterbays]

I notified Mike Cully of Car2Go as he said he would like to attend our next meeting.

I tried my first Car2Go rental and it was even easier than it looks from the instructions on their web site. Swipe your card, get in, enter your PIN, and follow directions on the screen. I think Mike is right that these can serve as "range extenders" for EV drivers, where instead of a battery swap you do a car swap.

For downtown destinations they can be parking solutions. Wow, they are easy to parallel park in tight spaces! With lots of free parking for them downtown, you could save enough on parking to pay for the rental. As for driving... well, they're serviceable. Let's just say your Leaf will feel so good to drive when you swap back again.

I've been watching the Blink map and the Car2Go map and it looks like Mike is making good on his promise not to monopolize the Balboa Park charging stations. What I'd really like to see is a Car2Go dedicated parking area at Balboa with a few more L2's and plenty of Car2Go cars standing by for swaps. I think Mike said they'd give EV drivers a couple of free minutes to move one of their cars out of a charging spot so you could recharge your Leaf. I would also be willing when I was there to move one or two Car2Go cars into and out of charging spots to help keep their fleet charged and ready to go.

Other Guests confirmed: Richard Adbala, Operations Manager for Aladdin Airport parking to discuss their addition of 500 new parking spots, 115 of them with charging for EVs. In addition, they have valet parking now for EVs to charge on 120v, and are in discussion for a DC charger.

I think I'll give Aladdin my business next trip to say "thank you" even though I don't really need charging for a round trip to the airport.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Other Guests confirmed: Richard Adbala, Operations Manager for Aladdin Airport parking to discuss their addition of 500 new parking spots, 115 of them with charging for EVs. In addition, they have valet parking now for EVs to charge on 120v, and are in discussion for a DC charger.

If Aladdin puts in EV charging/parking, they have MY business! From Oceanside to SAN airport round-trip with no charging = arriving on zero electrons or less. Aladdin EV charging =