new 2019 E+ leaf battery pack no active cooling?

[Durandal]

it will become worthless to the current owner because the battery degraded enough that they can't use it for their needs...

Additionally, another change that doesn't get mentioned as often (because it's not as critical as battery capacity) is the almost complete loss of regen that occurs as the battery degrades. For whatever reason, Nissan has programmed the car to prevent regen when the battery is this degraded. Regen was one of the unexpected joys of EV ownership when I first got the Leaf. One-pedal driving is fun when you get used to it. Plus you have the prospect of never needing to replace brake pads for the life of the car.

In my case, I had to replace my pads at 95k miles due to the loss of regen. My Leaf now has less coasting slow-down ability than any automatic transmission vehicle I've ever owned. So even if the car with half the range is still able to go everywhere you need it to, you'll also have to deal with losing the ability to regen.

What kills me about the regen, is on mine, it's often so low (1-2kW) that it's LESS than the standard charge rate of the car! You would think the minimum would be 3.6kW, which the car charges at... But NOOOOO. Or maybe at least regen what the heater is running at, so my heat would be "free" but noooooo. There's this huge hill I go down every morning, and at that part of my commute, I have TWO bars of range left, TWO! And the max regen I can get at that point is about 6-7kW. It's ridiculous. I try to reduce my speed as much as possible to squeeze as much possible regen over an increasingly longer distance, but this Leaf will be toast as a commuter vehicle for me by next winter. During the summer it's OK, but it's almost worthless to me in the winter these days. I lament buying the Leaf, and wish I had instead bought a used Volt.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I suggest that people look at all sides, not just the negative. Overdoing the negative isn't cost free.

Then it should be possible to compromise on what we both advise.

I think y'all need to form a committee and write a FAQ or sticky on this topic. I'm sure both sides of the aisle can come together and compromise, set a good example for our younger leafers and show that we're reasonable forum posters. Suggested bullet points:

• Battery Warranty (what it covers, what it doesn't)
• Battery replacement costs (they haven't gotten cheaper like many hoped)
• Real world battery degradation (what is typical, which climates do better than others)
• Expectations for 40kWh and 62kWh packs (will be mostly speculative but worth discussing)
• Winter range loss (how many miles will the cold cost you)
• Maintenance costs (the leaf appears to be extremely reliable aside from the battery degradation issue)
• Charging infrastructure (how will you charge? Level 2 at home requirements and costs, public charging options)
• Overall assessment (somewhat subjective, try not to get too wordy, be positive about what situation the leaf is a good fit for)
• EV competition (you can even talk about other cars that don't exist yet for prices that haven't happened yet and how they are better values than the leaf)

Then if the person reads all that and still wants a leaf we can link them to:

• MSRP vs actual sales prices (how much can people actually get these cars for vs asking price)
• Depreciation/resale (blue book and auction price after X amount of years)
• Lease vs Purchase (what is the sales price inflection point where leasing and buying are comparable, risks of each path)
• New vs Used (what are your needs and how can they be met most cheaply)

I'm sure I missed a few but you get the gist.

Now you may say I'm being a jerk by expecting y'all to do this work with no real monetary benefit. And that is true. But given the countless hours spent writing posts on this topic, stewing over the replies, and replying to said replies... it may be easier and less frustrating in the long run to just hash it out over a few e-beers and make it a sticky. I'd even throw in my 2cents on a few of the topics if anyone cared for my assessment in hopes of making the internet a little more useful and a little less toxic for everyone.

it would be longer than this entire forum which means people will do the same thing as this forum which is not read it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What is needed is a topic called "Buying vs Leasing A New Nissan Leaf". It would describe the advantages of each option (essentially lower total price and usually higher incentives for buying, vs no long term commitment to keep the car for leasing, plus the on-again off-again passing on of Federal tax credit cash to lessees who can't qualify if they buy) and the disadvantages (owning a car with poor resale value vs paying more and being responsible for excess mileage and damage if the car is turned in). It isn't rocket science, but the only way to keep it simple and fight-free is to be dispassionate, and to include ALL of the advantages and disadvantages for each option. The real sticking point will be what to tell people about buying vs leasing based on their climate...

When writing a scientific paper we separate those into a results and discussion section.

Results should be simple, clear, dispassionate, data driven, and concise.

Discussion can get into a little more of the fluff.

You could even add a conclusion that gives some basic recommendations if you want.

The reality is there simply VERY few people here who have anything but casual observations of their battery and degradation. I have a good idea of several trends but it takes a considerable amount of time to gather the info. A far sighted butcher can count the people here willing to do the same with fingers left over.

There IS a good starting point. Battery U but most here simply refuse to accept the basic concepts of how Li batteries work.

So no matter what is written, it WILL be panned by a majority here. Some because of actual personal experiences, others simply because they feel they got burned by buying first run emerging technology with the ill gotten goal of thinking they would be happy for 10 years with it.

 

[WetEV]

What is needed is a topic called "Buying vs Leasing A New Nissan Leaf".

When writing a scientific paper we separate those into a results and discussion section.

The reality is there simply VERY few people here who have anything but casual observations of their battery and degradation. I have a good idea of several trends but it takes a considerable amount of time to gather the info. A far sighted butcher can count the people here willing to do the same with fingers left over.

There IS a good starting point. Battery U but most here simply refuse to accept the basic concepts of how Li batteries work.

So no matter what is written, it WILL be panned by a majority here. Some because of actual personal experiences, others simply because they feel they got burned by buying first run emerging technology with the ill gotten goal of thinking they would be happy for 10 years with it.

I'm going give it a try. It will take a while, lots to write, and I will listen and respond to criticism. I'm going to aim at a balanced discussion. Framework is at:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27677

 

[golfcart]

I'm going give it a try. It will take a while, lots to write, and I will listen and respond to criticism. I'm going to aim at a balanced discussion. Framework is at:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27677

Cool, let me know if you want any battery related info I have SOH% datapoints from roughly every 6 months since purchase on my 2015 S as well as maintenance records (which are only 2 recalls, annual inspections, and a new set of tires). I have no problem providing any "real world experience" info or constructive feedback as well.

 

[LeftieBiker]

here IS a good starting point. Battery U but most here simply refuse to accept the basic concepts of how Li batteries work.

"Most"? Seriously?

 

[cwerdna]

The obstacle to writing a FAQ is that my conclusions are constantly disputed - mostly by one person. You don't seem to understand the consequences of that. I'm done talking about it for now.

Yep... actually, I can think of two or maybe three.

@golfcart: And, back to batteries, we already know there are several revisions of the 24 kWh packs. There's the best packs (aka "lizard battery" in model year '15), "wolf pack" that Leftie coined that seemed to began with 4/2013 build months and presumably ran thru model year '14. And, there's the lousy packs (canary?) that were in Leafs prior to 4/2013.

People in hot climates with any of the packs lose capacity a lot more quickly than cooler ones. This has been true of all the pack revs. However, some bad charging habits can lead to horrific losses even in the cool Pacific NW, it seems (e.g. 7 bar loser on an '11 in the PNW: https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/permalink/1757297620968334/).

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=508974#p508974 has some background info. http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=537955#p537955 in a mild climate. Someone in Phoenix w/that same battery would've hit 4 bar losses long ago.

I'm still at 11 bars (lost my 1st bar in Nov 2017) and Leaf Spy SOH is ~82.xx% now on my 5/2013 built Leaf in a hotter part of the SF Bay Area. In comparison, there's already 4 bar loser on the lizard pack (the best we know of) in a very hot part of California: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=545757#p545757.

We have some data on 30 kWh packs which was horrific and then we got a fix: https://insideevs.com/nissan-issues-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-battery-reporting-issues/. Now we just have to wait awhile for people w/that fix.

It's too early to tell on the 40 kWh packs and as I said, we can't even begin to have any idea for the 62 kWh packs.

 

[golfcart]

@golfcart: And, back to batteries, we already know there are several revisions of the 24 kWh packs. There's the best packs (aka "lizard battery" in model year '15), "wolf pack" that Leftie coined that seemed to began with 4/2013 build months and presumably ran thru model year '14. And, there's the lousy packs (canary?) that were in Leafs prior to 4/2013.

This doesn't strike me as particularly difficult to capture and is only relevant to used car buyers which Leftie has discussed in his used car buyers guide. In terms of new car purchase, which this will be aimed at, older iterations of the battery are not that relevant IMO although they do ding Nissan's credibility a bit.

New batteries have an 8 yr 100k mile capacity warranty so any new buyer can be assured of that level of performance at worst. Remember, this is the comment and response that started a lot of this "FAQ/Sticky" discussion:

I think that all we can go by is the LEAF warranty.
Is a car that will have no less than 27 kWh over 8 years worth $30K ? Worth $25k ? Worth $20k ? Worth $15k ?
Each to their own.

This post could be copied and pasted into 90% of the threads on this forum and end most of the debates. The batteries are what they are, that is a deal breaker for some and not for others based on needs, desired bells and whistles, and actual cost paid for the vehicle.

E+ will guarantee 40 kWh for 8 years or 100k miles. Pro-pilot standard, DC QC standard, 215hp, 0-60 likely in low to mid 6 second range. Should be under $30k after incentives, likely cheaper if you can wait until fall.

2018/2019 40kWh with DC QC, pro-pilot, and and 0-60 in the mid 7 second range will guarantee 27 kWh for 8 years or 100k miles. One can be had right now for less than $25k right now after incentives, and even less in some markets (my market included).

If that suits your needs then get it, if it doesn't then get something else. I feel bad for the early Leaf adopters (pre-2015 or so) that got screwed with the unexpected degradation but we all know what we're signing up for at this point.

The point is just to lay out the relevant info somewhere so that people can make an informed decision based on cost, need, and guaranteed level of performance (warranty). We'll still have plenty of opportunities for anecdotes, rants, and pissing contests but at least someone can read that without having to sift through pages of nonsense first.

 

[SageBrush]

One of the reasons I bought my 2018 Leaf is that I thought it had the range to travel at least the maximum 120 miles between Electrify America stations. I have been able to map out CHAdeMO routes on PlugShare from DFW to Orlando, Atlanta, Chicago, Denver and Los Angeles. Almost all the charging legs are below 110 miles and most are still less than 90 miles.

With condition my battery is in now I figure I can travel 100 miles before LBW at 75 mph and 130 miles before LBW at 60 mph on a warm day on a level road with no wind. When the battery capacity drops down to 8 bars I should still be able to travel 100 miles at 60 mph and 130 miles at 45 mph. With all the new models coming out with longer range I find myself second guessing my decision to buy the 2018 Leaf.

This is a reasonable way to think about the car but the assumptions are over-optimistic.

1) The usable capacity is about 38 kWh;
We think Nissan will allow warranty replacement below ~ 63% of new capacity though that could change
38*0.63 = 24 kWh
Driving the battery down to zero is completely unrealistic. Even driving battery down to 2.5 kWh on road trips is going to invoke range anxiety in most, but lets go with 2.5 kWh reserve (and hope that the stations are always operational, always available etc.)
24 - 2.5 = 21.5 kWh always available during the warranty period.


Some trips the roads will be wet, snowy or icy. Some trips the ambient will be hot or cold. Some trips will have head-winds. Some legs will have mountains to climb. You cannot bank on more that 3 miles per kWh at moderate driving speeds even though most trips will be more.

21.5 kWh * 3 = 65 miles

 

[Flyct]

Bought a 2018 Leaf SV to replace it. They gave us $12,500 on the trade. So our depreciation was $17k-$12.5k= $4,500. We owned it for 30 months so it cost us $150/mo. That was better than leasing an SL.

Your analysis is incomplete until you figure out any difference in what you paid for the new car compared to not having a trade-in.

These package deals are hard to tease apart. Dealers tend to love them.

SageBrush,

I normally would agree, but I had aggressively negotiated a “clean deal” new car out the door price. After locking in the price on the 2018 Leaf only then did I even bring up the trade. I drove to the dealership with my brand new 2019 F350 and they didn’t know I owned a Leaf that I would be trading in.

I negotiated between 3 dealerships for identical 2018 Leafs.

When I made the trade in deal they didn’t even see the 2015. I sent them a picture. I completed the deal and they came to my house phone to up my trade.

I noticed there wasn’t a EVSE in the trunk of the new Leaf. When they came to pick up my trade they delivered the EVSE and they tried to give me an ole version used one with only the 115v version.

After calling Nissan and complaining I was told they are backordered. After going back an forth they finally agreed to send me a check for $722.59 which they said was their cost for the 2018 220/110v EVSE. I ended up buying one on eBay for $219 and still kept the 115v version as a spare.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I normally would agree, but I had aggressively negotiated a “clean deal” new car out the door price. After locking in the price on the 2018 Leaf only then did I even bring up the trade. I drove to the dealership with my brand new 2019 F350 and they didn’t know I owned a Leaf that I would be trading in.

I negotiated between 3 dealerships for identical 2018 Leafs.

When I made the trade in deal they didn’t even see the 2015. I sent them a picture. I completed the deal and they came to my house phone to up my trade.

Well done. I always tell people to do it like that (not mentioning the trade until negotiating on the new car is done) but they rarely do...

 

[JeffN]

I just wrote a new on-topic article:

Does the new 62 kWh LEAF battery have “an additional fan” for cooling?

https://electricrevs.com/2019/01/31/does-the-new-62-kwh-leaf-battery-have-an-additional-fan-for-cooling/

 

[LeftieBiker]

This is the first I've seen mention of active fan cooling that uses the car's HVAC system to cool or warm the pack. All I've read is that Nissan and Hyundai used a fan, and then only while charging...

 

[OrientExpress]

I already looked inside one of the 64kWh batteries and there is no fan, it's still passive. But the good news is that the 19 LEAF Plus is the last year of the B platform BEV from Nissan. The 2020 BEVs from Infiniti and Nissan will be built on a new Skateboard platform like the VW MEB platform.