My Experiments With Turtle

[Jimmydreams]

Jimmydreams, Can you use EVP to see how many kwh you used to charge the car after the turtle ?

When I get the BLINK unit installed, I'll compare it's data to the TED data....all of which will be compared to my actual bill from SDG&E. :twisted:

 

[evnow]

Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be! According to my TED, 19.2kWh went to the EVSE. That brought my pack from 0% SOC to 100% SOC. Weren't we thinking that Nissan gave us 20kW to play with and kept the last 4kW for reserve? 19.2 went in.....I wonder how long I could limp around under Turtle Mode????

Hmmm ... so is it really 24 kwh total and 20 kwh usable ?

 

[wsbca]

I used the charge timer with only the END time set and this morning, the car itself is showing 93miles/103ECO

Jimmy - I'm somewhat reluctant to ask, since I'm afraid we're not going to love the answer, but do you have TED data for how many real live kWh it took from the wall to take the battery from effective zero to the nominal '24kWh' full state, or perhaps more directly stated, refill it after those 83 miles of driving?

Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be! According to my TED, 19.2kWh went to the EVSE. That brought my pack from 0% SOC to 100% SOC. Weren't we thinking that Nissan gave us 20kW to play with and kept the last 4kW for reserve? 19.2 went in.....I wonder how long I could limp around under Turtle Mode????

Wow - I'm more than a little blown away by this, especially since I had to put in 14.85 kWh from the wall (measured with Kill-a-Watt) in my L1 experiment to "put back" just 38.4 relatively mild miles (2.6 m/kWh), and am using 2 hours at (presumably) 3.6KW L2 from the same CC EVSE to put back 24.8 miles (3.3 m/kWh wall to wheel). So it really only took about 5:20 (modulo any slowdown of charge rate at the end) from "charging started" to "charging stopped" at the 3.65KW you were seeing flowing from the Clipper to get from 0 to 100%? Isn't that way faster than even Nissan says? 83 relatively vigorous miles replenished at 4.3kWh/mile from the wall just seems to good to be true. I hope it's accurate but it's so much better than I seem to be getting from L2 (not so much the mileage, but the recharge behavior) - I wonder what is souring my results. I'm really not trying to be contrarian or pessimistic, just feeling confused.

 

[Spies]

Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be! According to my TED, 19.2kWh went to the EVSE. That brought my pack from 0% SOC to 100% SOC. Weren't we thinking that Nissan gave us 20kW to play with and kept the last 4kW for reserve? 19.2 went in.....I wonder how long I could limp around under Turtle Mode????

Hmmm ... so is it really 24 kwh total and 20 kwh usable ?

Really? Now I am totally confused!

 

[IBELEAF]

I used the charge timer with only the END time set and this morning, the car itself is showing 93miles/103ECO

Jimmy - I'm somewhat reluctant to ask, since I'm afraid we're not going to love the answer, but do you have TED data for how many real live kWh it took from the wall to take the battery from effective zero to the nominal '24kWh' full state, or perhaps more directly stated, refill it after those 83 miles of driving?

Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be! According to my TED, 19.2kWh went to the EVSE. That brought my pack from 0% SOC to 100% SOC. Weren't we thinking that Nissan gave us 20kW to play with and kept the last 4kW for reserve? 19.2 went in.....I wonder how long I could limp around under Turtle Mode????

If this is really the case does 80% charge really beneficial?

 

[Spies]

If this is really the case does 80% charge really beneficial?

If it really is a total of 24 kWh and only 20 kWh is usable and most of the 4 kWh reserve is at the bottom of the pack and not at the top then yes, 80% charge is beneficial. We need access to more data!

 

[Ohmie]

I have experience with turtle mode, too. It indicates a surprisingly short amount of time left to power the vehicle. Essentially, it is wise to interpret it as, "Now find a safe place to pull over where you can call roadside assistance and be towed to a charging station." A better symbol would have been a fork. As in, you're done, man, stick a fork in it.

The turtle indicator is not at all like the 'low gas' indicator on an ICE, which affords another 20 or so miles before you run out of fuel. Even at low speed, range on turtle is very limited.

This is good to know as a LEAF driver who may be attempting to squeeze out every last bit of range! Don't push the turtle, it doesn't budge very far.

 

[Spies]

The turtle indicator is not at all like the 'low gas' indicator on an ICE, which affords another 20 or so miles before you run out of fuel. Even at low speed, range on turtle is very limited.

I suppose that is what the "battery level is low" warning and light is all about and seems to be equivalent to about 20 miles left in the battery.

 

[planet4ever]

Actually, it's not as bad as I thought it would be! According to my TED, 19.2kWh went to the EVSE. That brought my pack from 0% SOC to 100% SOC. Weren't we thinking that Nissan gave us 20kW to play with and kept the last 4kW for reserve? 19.2 went in.....I wonder how long I could limp around under Turtle Mode????

Wow - I'm more than a little blown away by this, especially since I had to put in 14.85 kWh from the wall (measured with Kill-a-Watt) in my L1 experiment to "put back" just 38.4 relatively mild miles (2.6 m/kWh), and am using 2 hours at (presumably) 3.6KW L2 from the same CC EVSE to put back 24.8 miles (3.3 m/kWh wall to wheel). So it really only took about 5:20 (modulo any slowdown of charge rate at the end) from "charging started" to "charging stopped" at the 3.65KW you were seeing flowing from the Clipper to get from 0 to 100%? Isn't that way faster than even Nissan says? 83 relatively vigorous miles replenished at 4.3kWh/mile from the wall just seems to good to be true. I hope it's accurate but it's so much better than I seem to be getting from L2 (not so much the mileage, but the recharge behavior) - I wonder what is souring my results. I'm really not trying to be contrarian or pessimistic, just feeling confused.

I'm with wsbca. This is truly astounding news, really unbelievable news. The owner's manual quite specifically says "approximately 7 hours" from Low Battery Charge Warning to 100%, and you were way below that level. It should have taken at least eight hours to charge, and (I believe) used somewhere around 25-27 kWh at the wall. Sorry, Jimmy, but I'm going to remain suspicious until someone else can duplicate those results.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If this is really the case does 80% charge really beneficial?

dont confuse reserve capacity with overcharging issues. not the same!! we are talking opposite ends of the pack here.

as far as how far in turtle mode. well, we probably would not be allowed to go below 10% so i am guessing 10+ miles since turtle mode would be probably 6-8 mpk with better than a KW to burn~

but i am impressed that you could do 35 mph. i would only need to make it off the freeway with my range and i could still make it home. coming north on I-5 its 6 miles to my house all at 35-40 mph. going south its 8 miles with the same speed!!

 

[Carcus]

Wow. I was really expecting more than 24 kwh's total pack capacity.


The TED was reporting 19.2 kwh's back in.
JD drove 83 miles.
JD reports carwings is saying an average of 4.3 mi/kwh

83/4.3 = ............ 19.3


19.3 is very close to 19.2. Obviously there's a little error here somewhere, and where is the efficiency loss during the charge? The numbers aren't all adding up ,.... but ... seems to be pointing towards 24kwh total capacity.

 

[TomT]

These discussions amuse me. Nissan has said from the very beginning that the pack capacity was 24Kw. Why is anyone surprised to find out that it is ... 24Kw?!

Wow. I was really expecting more than 24 kwh's total pack capacity.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Jimmy- Do you have a dedicated MTU on your Leaf charge line or did you program it as a "load"?

 

[evnow]

These discussions amuse me. Nissan has said from the very beginning that the pack capacity was 24Kw. Why is anyone surprised to find out that it is ... 24Kw?!

Wow. I was really expecting more than 24 kwh's total pack capacity.

Because Nissan has also said they use 95% of that 24 kwh - leading us to beleive 24 kwh is actually the usable part. In anycase, if what Jimmy found was right, they aren't using 95% of the 24 kwh.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Jimmy- Do you have a dedicated MTU on your Leaf charge line or did you program it as a "load"?

I have a dedicated MTU on the EVSE line designated as "Stand Alone" in TED.

*UPDATE* *UPDATE* *UPDATE* *UDATE*

SOMEHOW, BETWEEN SWITCHING SCREENS I MANAGED TO SCREW UP THE ADDITION!!! FROM TURTLE-MODE (0% CHARGE), THE EVSE PUT IN 25.6kWh OF ENERGY, NOT 19.2!!!

The after-Turtle-Mode charging went like this:

CARWINGS reporting 0% charge left, 2 mile range.

EVSE came on full power (3.8kW) at 9pm and charged full blast until 3am. At 3am, it began to slowly reduce the charging power over and hour, where it shut off at 4am. At 5am, the EVSE came back on (at 3.0kW) for about 10 minutes. Then off again until 6AM when it came back on again (at 1.94kW) for about 15 minutes.

I went to the TED history and added up it's hourly power usage for that night....all 0.0kWh numbers until 9pm. Here's the history chart. (ignore the 'cost' portion. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate.)

And here's what the graph looks like. You can see the bumps after the main charge:

SO THERE IS VERY LITTLE POWER LEFT WHEN TURTLE-MODE KICKS IN!!

Thanks to WSBCA and Planet4ever for making me recheck everything. I will edit the original post to make sure this erroneous data doesn't get spread any further!!!

 

[evnow]

Thanks to WSBCA and Planet4ever for making me recheck everything. I will edit the original post to make sure this erroneous data doesn't get spread any further!!!

LOL. I was about to post a a new thread saying we should relook at our assumption of 24 kwh usable - mainly based on your reported 19.2 kwh !

 

[EVDRIVER]

This makes more sense, I was finding it had to believe some of the reported range numbers based on 19 KWH usage. Now the next question is what is the actual full capacity of the pack? No wonder they want people to only charge to 80% and is that what it takes to make the pack last based on their stated estimates or are their capacity life estimates based on full charges? It would be nice to know this rather than guess.

 

[wsbca]

THE EVSE PUT IN 25.6kWh OF ENERGY, NOT 19.2!!!

Jimmy, thanks for double checking. This result (3.25 m/kWh wall to wheel) tracks with what I thought I'd been seeing but couldn't quite prove. Thanks also for being the guinea pig for a full depletion run, it's great info for everyone. Now I'll stop kvetching about charging efficiency and turn my attention to driving technique and enjoying the car! (until it comes time to get agitated about the Blink vampire load

On the plus side it's a good solar day today!!

Cheers,

Wade

 

[Jimmydreams]

THE EVSE PUT IN 25.6kWh OF ENERGY, NOT 19.2!!!

Jimmy, thanks for double checking. This result (3.25 m/kWh wall to wheel) tracks with what I thought I'd been seeing but couldn't quite prove. Thanks also for being the guinea pig for a full depletion run, it's great info for everyone. Now I'll stop kvetching about charging efficiency and turn my attention to driving technique and enjoying the car! (until it comes time to get agitated about the Blink vampire load

On the plus side it's a good solar day today!!

Cheers,

Wade

Remember that probe that skipped off the atmosphere of Mars, wasting millions of dollars and years of effort all because some jerk forget to translate from metric to decimal???

I feel like that guy.

I'm just glad we caught it sooner rather than later!! (plus, no probes were lost during this experiment!!) :lol:

 

[evnow]

I think we need someone to charge from low battery to full. Should bw around 20 kwh+charging inefficiency.