Make money driving your Leaf
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nerys said:
Since you did not layout your scenario I will fill in the blanks. Your scenario is that you have a coupon for $1 off a $5 ham. Unfortunately that scenario is nothing like the scenario of installing some PV and owning an EV.
When you install PV you are offsetting buying power from the utility. So for example your 4,000 kWh annual system saves you $400 per year (using $.1 per kWh).
When you buy an EV this saves you money from not buying gas, and possibly maintenance. So for example simple math would be how much you spend on gas - how many kWh you use * $.1 = annual savings from owning an EV over a gas car. So let's say that is $800 per year.
You will see that this two equations are not at all related. If you only buy a PV you save $400. If you only buy an EV you save $800. And if you do both you save $1,200.*
So back to your scensrio. If attempt to use the ham coupon you save nothing. If only attempt to buy the ham you again save nothing. BUT if you use the coupon and buy the ham you save a $1.
If you insist that the two are related then let's try this math. You install PV and this makes your air conditioning cost go down by $400. Then you buy an EV and save $800 from buying gas. So at this point you are saving $1,200.
But since you insist that it's your electricity and you can do what you want with it you say that the solar PV is powering your car. So now you don't save $400 on air conditioning but since the electricity to power your car is free you are now saving $1,200 by driving an EV. You will notice that the total you save in both scenarios is exactly the same.
So instead of telling me I am wrong why don't you try to explain what I have said specifically that you believe is wrong and explain why. If you would prefer you could instead post your ROI calculations for the three scenarios using costs and savings that are based on your own situation. As a reminder the three scenarios are: just PV, just EV, and both PV and EV. You can post them in a different order since you got the EV first and since you didn't have just PV you will have to use your imagination on what the savings for just PV would be.
*always have to add that tiered/TOU pricing and when 100% of your electricity use is covered by PV make for a really complicated equation where the combination of the two things does save more than each by it self.
No. Not a $1 coupon for ham simply a $1 coupon for anything I want.
I "elect" to put the $1 coupon toward ham.
No. The electric car does not save me $800. I would never buy kne for such paultry savings.
The elctric car saves $8700 a year in gasoline I would otherwise have had to buy and it costs me about $200 -$300 in electricity. (Out of pocket maybe less)
The car itself consumes abotu $800 in e but half of that comes from one job and about $100 (approximate value) from the other job where they do not pass the cost onto me.
So I have $500 in covered ie not out of my pocket (which to be blunt is all I care about)
My solar covers about $400 a year (very small array). Effectively negating the $300 at home e I use charging the car "out of my pocket" otherwise.
No electric car. No solar. I bought it "for" the electric car.
The "relationship" is the dollar in or out of my pocket. It really is that simple.
Why is it that you can "decree" that my air conditiong cost goes down?
Technically right now the car only saves me about $100 out of pocket a month since the e and fuel savings are now dierecrtd toward the car payment and Insurance premuim increase.
I "elect" to put the $1 coupon toward ham.
No. The electric car does not save me $800. I would never buy kne for such paultry savings.
The elctric car saves $8700 a year in gasoline I would otherwise have had to buy and it costs me about $200 -$300 in electricity. (Out of pocket maybe less)
The car itself consumes abotu $800 in e but half of that comes from one job and about $100 (approximate value) from the other job where they do not pass the cost onto me.
So I have $500 in covered ie not out of my pocket (which to be blunt is all I care about)
My solar covers about $400 a year (very small array). Effectively negating the $300 at home e I use charging the car "out of my pocket" otherwise.
No electric car. No solar. I bought it "for" the electric car.
The "relationship" is the dollar in or out of my pocket. It really is that simple.
Why is it that you can "decree" that my air conditiong cost goes down?
Technically right now the car only saves me about $100 out of pocket a month since the e and fuel savings are now dierecrtd toward the car payment and Insurance premuim increase.
You didn't honor my request of laying out how much you save by just buying an EV, by just buying PV, and by buying both. I'll wait to respond further until you provide the total savings of all three scenarios.
I don't know what kind of system you have but I would expect you have a standard grid tie system so it seems like maybe the issue is that you don't realize that your PV system is actually providing power to be used by ANY of your electrical demands, not just an EV. You seem to think that if you sold your electric car that your solar PV would stop saving you money because you "bought it "for" the electric car.". The reality is that it will keep saving you money regardless of if you own an electric car. In fact the amount of money you are saving from installing PV has nothing to do with owning an electric car!nerys said:
Because it was my scenario and I can "decree" whatever I wanted to help show you by example so I "decreed" AC costs going down, since in that scenario you didn't have an EV. If you sit back and look at this from a simple math point of view your AC or your EV costs are not going down, but your utility bill is going down by installing PV.nerys said:
Exactly, and installing PV makes X dollars go into you pocket. Buying an EV makes Y dollars go into your pocket and doing both makes X+Y go into your pocket.nerys said:
johnrhansen
Well-known member
This is my take on things. As most people know, the key to wealth accumulation is to maximize your income and minimize your expenses. Doesn't really matter what kinds of fuzzy math you throw at it. That's the way it is. In the OP's case he maximizes his income by taking every possible tax deduction for mileage, etc. And to minimize expenses he drives the leaf, on free power nonetheless. There's no difference in his case and mine. I'm just a simple working stiff who has a 60 mile round trip commute. My income is union negotiated and does not change, but I put money in my pocket each week by driving the leaf. My coworker has a longer commute, and drives a prius c. He also saves money, but a lot less. The leaf is a very cheap car to drive in the long run, providing nothing major breaks down once the warranty expires. I'm holding my breath.
I think you need to read better. Or did you miss the $8700 $800 $400 $500 and $100 figures in my post?
I am very honestly still not sure what the heck your arguing for exactly. I kniw what your arguing but not what your intentions are
How about spelling them out for me?
I am very honestly still not sure what the heck your arguing for exactly. I kniw what your arguing but not what your intentions are
How about spelling them out for me?
nerys said:
I'm trying really hard to read through all the typos, misspellings, and gibberish but unfortunately you don't' seem to take very much care in the quality of your postings so it is often difficult to comprehend what you are trying to say.
I asked for three simple totals and you just gave me 5 numbers.... I will reiterate what the three scenarios are and if you could provide a single total for each one.
1. Total saved by JUST driving an EV:
2. Total saved by JUST installing PV:
3. Total saved by driving an EV and installing PV:
The reason why this issue matters so much to me is that I see a lot of people trying to market PV by saying that how much you save on gas from driving an EV makes installing PV cheaper or how installing PV and EV can save you gas or trying to calculate the ROI of driving an EV and installing PV together. I'm not a fan of deceptive advertising and since installing PV and buying an EV are two unrelated separate transactions I don't like the idea that anyone would think their ROI is actually better than it is. Each one needs to be calculated independent of the other.
So saying that installing PV save gas, or in your case that your car runs on free power (sure the power from your work is free but not the power from your solar PV) sets off my trigger.
So to answer your question more succinctly: I'm arguing for accurate calculations around the savings and ROI from buying an EV or installing PV.
nerys said:
Then I guess the other thing I'm trying to get you to realize is that if it made financial sense for you to install PV "for" your EV then it actually makes financial sense to install PV for your computer, cell phone, toaster, oven, fridge, inside lights, outside lights, TV, garage door opener, electric can opener, space heating, water heating, vacuum, cable box, cable modem, router, wireless access point, Nintendo, and EVERY other electrical load that you have in your house. In fact the ROI of installing PV for your EV is exactly the same as the ROI to install PV for your fridge.*
I am typing from a cell phone. My typos are not relevant. Your are trolling by complaining about them since it is a fact that the human mind can extract a tremendous amount of info from "gibberish"
You are choosing to complain about that which is so minor as to be nearly indistinguishable from completely irrelevant.
I have already given you the numbers. You refuse to read them for some reason?
Who said anything about roi? Sure as heck not me.
I did not pay anyone. No one sold me anything. I installed it myself with used panels as funds permit.
Pv does not save gas. Thats stupid. It save e not gas. The roi on my oanels is 0. They have already paid for themselves.
The reason for there installation was to offset the e the car will use. Not really to save money per say but to be sble to render my fuel cist for my right to travel to $0 out principle alone. It it is fun for me to try.
I can not give you a concrete roi on the car as I dont have actual data on battery life expectency in my particular conditions. Ie how long before I csn not go 60 miles on a single charge (work is 54 miles away)
Until I know that I can only guess.
I can make an educated guess.
For right this minute the car is free.
$341 car payment $89 insurance premium. $430 a month. E $0
Versus actual gasoline expenditure per month of $460 to $500 prior to sep 9 2014. With several months pushing $700.
So right now the car is saving me about $50 a month over what I was paying before although I get to drive a brand new car which has real value too.
But this comes with a quid pro quo. I know I will need a new battery. 2 actually in the next 10 years
I hope only 2. So that $11,000 has to also be factored in. Once the car is paid off its all gravy
Even if I need a new battery yearly the car will still save me 2 to 3 grand a year over gasoline.
Assuming the rest of the car stays reliable and functioning
I average 7 to 8 thousand a year in gasoline (~$45,000 miles a year)
Your questions are not so easy to answer it seems
What does the ev save me?
Right now? $50 a month or $600 a year
Once car is paid off? $8000 a year minus new battery now and then
What does the pv array save me? $400 a year
What does both save me? With car payment? $1000 a year. After car payment $8400 a year
Minus new battery in 4 years (I hope) plus any more power I save as I add more cheap panels as I find and acquire them for my array.
Plus add in car maintenance savings of about $400 a year that the ev will not require but this number is quite variable. My maintenance costs are low as I do my own repairs.
Another way to look at this is what I call a 10 year TRC (total real cost)
Leaf (with assumptions)
$25k (financed cost till I refinance) 2 batteries $11000 $36,000 10 year TRC
Newer used 35mpg car $16k financed plus 10 years of gasoline. $46000 plus $3000 maintenance unique to an ice 10 year TRC $65000
Seems like a no brainer to me even if I need 3 batteries instead of just 2
Now if I compare to a geo metro it gets much closer that 3rd battery could break it. But that is not a fair equal comparison.
Any more questions?
You are choosing to complain about that which is so minor as to be nearly indistinguishable from completely irrelevant.
I have already given you the numbers. You refuse to read them for some reason?
Who said anything about roi? Sure as heck not me.
I did not pay anyone. No one sold me anything. I installed it myself with used panels as funds permit.
Pv does not save gas. Thats stupid. It save e not gas. The roi on my oanels is 0. They have already paid for themselves.
The reason for there installation was to offset the e the car will use. Not really to save money per say but to be sble to render my fuel cist for my right to travel to $0 out principle alone. It it is fun for me to try.
I can not give you a concrete roi on the car as I dont have actual data on battery life expectency in my particular conditions. Ie how long before I csn not go 60 miles on a single charge (work is 54 miles away)
Until I know that I can only guess.
I can make an educated guess.
For right this minute the car is free.
$341 car payment $89 insurance premium. $430 a month. E $0
Versus actual gasoline expenditure per month of $460 to $500 prior to sep 9 2014. With several months pushing $700.
So right now the car is saving me about $50 a month over what I was paying before although I get to drive a brand new car which has real value too.
But this comes with a quid pro quo. I know I will need a new battery. 2 actually in the next 10 years
I hope only 2. So that $11,000 has to also be factored in. Once the car is paid off its all gravy
Even if I need a new battery yearly the car will still save me 2 to 3 grand a year over gasoline.
Assuming the rest of the car stays reliable and functioning
I average 7 to 8 thousand a year in gasoline (~$45,000 miles a year)
Your questions are not so easy to answer it seems
What does the ev save me?
Right now? $50 a month or $600 a year
Once car is paid off? $8000 a year minus new battery now and then
What does the pv array save me? $400 a year
What does both save me? With car payment? $1000 a year. After car payment $8400 a year
Minus new battery in 4 years (I hope) plus any more power I save as I add more cheap panels as I find and acquire them for my array.
Plus add in car maintenance savings of about $400 a year that the ev will not require but this number is quite variable. My maintenance costs are low as I do my own repairs.
Another way to look at this is what I call a 10 year TRC (total real cost)
Leaf (with assumptions)
$25k (financed cost till I refinance) 2 batteries $11000 $36,000 10 year TRC
Newer used 35mpg car $16k financed plus 10 years of gasoline. $46000 plus $3000 maintenance unique to an ice 10 year TRC $65000
Seems like a no brainer to me even if I need 3 batteries instead of just 2
Now if I compare to a geo metro it gets much closer that 3rd battery could break it. But that is not a fair equal comparison.
Any more questions?
I was trying to explain why I am having such a hard time reading what you write. I to am using a cell phone but I take the time to proof read my posts to help ensure that they make sense.nerys said:
You brought up the financial benefits of EV and PV in your first post. ROI is how you quantity if the financial benefits outweigh the upfront costs. As you "bluntly" said all you care about is money into your pocket so it seems like you would care a lot about ROI.
Can you help me get free panels, free racking, free inverters, free wiring, free misc. supplies, free electrical permits? I installed my system myself as well but all of that cost me 10s of thousand dollars.
Since you are getting this all for free you really should install a larger system that covers 100% of your electricity. Though now rereading I see you said as funds permit. Now I am confused. First you said you didn't pay anyone but then you said you bought panels? This is the kind of gibberish I am talking about. How can I begin to understand you when you don't take the time to proof read to ensure what you are saying clear.
Again I asked for three simple numbers and your response is incredibly difficult to understand. If you respond with just three numbers in the format I provided that would really help. I will reiterate what the three scenarios are and if you could provide a single total for each one.
1. Total saved by JUST driving an EV:
2. Total saved by JUST installing PV:
3. Total saved by driving an EV and installing PV:
nerys said:
BTW I was not trolling just trying to explain why your posts are so difficult to read because you asked why I was having trouble reading them. If you need examples of gibberish that I could not extract any info out of let me know and when I'm on a computer I'll provide you a list of examples.
your inability to understand English is not my problem
your questions were explicitly answered I will not answer them again
and who the hell said anything about free my array cost me about a thousand dollars (built it piece by piece) its been 3 years so $1200 saved roi is 0 since it has already paid for itself.
your questions were explicitly answered I will not answer them again
and who the hell said anything about free my array cost me about a thousand dollars (built it piece by piece) its been 3 years so $1200 saved roi is 0 since it has already paid for itself.
In Hell, the demons now issue all orders to the Damned via portable devices. They type very quickly, and leave auto-correct off. If the Damned can't understand the commands, they are tortured. Reading the above exchanges is a little bit like being in Hell for anyone who grew up before 1997.
nerys said:
I understand English just fine. If you'd like to improve the discussions that you have on the Internet I highly recommend you start taking the time to proof read your posts before submitting them.
You did when you said this:
That must not be true though if you paid someone $1,000.nerys said:
I'm afraid you are not familiar with how to calculate an ROI if you think your ROI on your solar is 0. It's probably not worth the energy to explain to you what ROI means since it doesn't seem like you want to learn anything but if do want to maybe try googling it. This probably also explains why you are having trouble understsnding why the financial benefits of PV and EV are two different unrelated things. Since you refuse to answer my simple question with a response that is actually undertstsndable I give up trying to explain to you how to properly calculate financial benefits of Evs and PV and ROI. Maybe just trust me that your car is not being powered by free power at home.
BTW it seems like you have changed your story. I thought you bought PV for your EV but didn't you just buy your EV three years after installing PV?
I'd love to hear more about the PV system you installed. Seems like to save $400 a year it has to be a pretty substantial system but I can't imagine you can buy much of a system for $1,000. Maybe post some pictures. Here are pictures of mine: http://kemp.solar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; What's electricity cost where you live? How many kW DC is your system? How many kWh annually is it producing for you?
mbender
Well-known member
LOl!!!!!!!1 ;-)QueenBee said:
again your lack of understanding of English is not my problem there is a difference between being sold something as in a salesman selling you on something and buying something which of course someone sold to you but is not the same thing as being "sold" something. Context. Learn that word. It is really handy.
you seem to enjoy selectively reading things and then twisting their meaning based on ignoring the parts that you elected not to read
again your problem not mine I'm not sparring with you over it troll elsewhere
once something has paid for itself its ROI break even point is now in the past that means it is 0 now.
I have 12 120w panels. All bought used $60 to $80 a pop got the tie in for $180. My neighbor handle the ac part gratis (certified) I did the dc part. I would need another tie in to add any more panels as I am near my units max.
Its a small array. If I get really bored one day I will send up my electtic glider and get a picture. Don't hold your breath. Our real cost here is 13.9c/kw
you seem to enjoy selectively reading things and then twisting their meaning based on ignoring the parts that you elected not to read
again your problem not mine I'm not sparring with you over it troll elsewhere
once something has paid for itself its ROI break even point is now in the past that means it is 0 now.
I have 12 120w panels. All bought used $60 to $80 a pop got the tie in for $180. My neighbor handle the ac part gratis (certified) I did the dc part. I would need another tie in to add any more panels as I am near my units max.
Its a small array. If I get really bored one day I will send up my electtic glider and get a picture. Don't hold your breath. Our real cost here is 13.9c/kw
nerys said:
Do you even remember what you typed? I'll provide the quote again to refresh your memory.
nerys said:
Since you seem to think I have trouble with English I'll provide the definition of pay that I use. "give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred." So in the context of ROI and solar panels someone saying they did not give money that is due for work done or goods received I'm supposed to know that you paid for them but you didn't "pay" for them?
Tomorrow at school ask your English teacher if the writer bears any responsibility for ensuring that the reader properly comprehends the writers message. You might be surprised by the answer you get.
As for context. I might have more context with what you were talking about if you used the quote feature of this website.
Unfortunately that isn't true. The ROI of something doesn't change just because the investment has been returned. The ROI was still ~3 years but since it has been three years your investment has returned. Maybe reading this will help clear things up: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You'll notice in their formula they do not include a value for how much has been returned already since that has no relaventcy.nerys said:
This conversation is getting extremely boring
I did not pay anyone. No one sold me anything.
Pay anyone as in to install (something you brought up)
No one sold me
As in convinced to buy with a story by some salesman or whatever.
Again something you brought up.
If you can not hold the bits of a conversation into their appropiate context.... context you created....
The failure is yours not mine deal with it
Roi is your problem. Your the only one who initiated discussion about it or is concerned about
I have one and only one concern over roi. Will it be positive in the projected lifespan of the purchase period. Ie time to roi break even. Any other roi discussion is of no relevance to me as I am an individual not a profit seeking corporation. Ie amount of roi means nothing to me.
I will entertain no other avenue of roi discussion and will summarilly ignore any more about it
Ie your problem not mine. Deal with it.
I did not pay anyone. No one sold me anything.
Pay anyone as in to install (something you brought up)
No one sold me
As in convinced to buy with a story by some salesman or whatever.
Again something you brought up.
If you can not hold the bits of a conversation into their appropiate context.... context you created....
The failure is yours not mine deal with it
Roi is your problem. Your the only one who initiated discussion about it or is concerned about
I have one and only one concern over roi. Will it be positive in the projected lifespan of the purchase period. Ie time to roi break even. Any other roi discussion is of no relevance to me as I am an individual not a profit seeking corporation. Ie amount of roi means nothing to me.
I will entertain no other avenue of roi discussion and will summarilly ignore any more about it
Ie your problem not mine. Deal with it.
nerys said:
The strange thing is your first post in this thread is about ROI you just didn't know that word (and probably still don't actually understand it)
I'm not going to try to explain why you should care about the amount of an ROI or why what you said doesn't make sense because as you've established you know everything already, are never wrong and are not ready to learn.
One of the the reasons I like this forum is there are lots of opportunities to learn from a ton of really smart people. After reading your other posts and this one it is clear that you are not here to learn from others. Had I read your thread about the difference between kW and kWh I would have given up trying to explain any of this to you. I can't believe after that many pages of posts some how something they said finally got through to you. That was some serious persistence.
