Lithium ion batteries suspect in 787 fire

[mwalsh]

And then there is this... It was inevitable I suppose.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100397943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When my car flies...then I'll worry about it!

 

[surfingslovak]

You gotta wonder how long this will drag out. The losses must be staggering. Is there a "plan B" ?

Funny you should ask, I was wondering about that too. Here is what a friend of mine just forwarded me. I don't know what to say, except that this is going to be one expensive lesson for some people.

Boeing battery solution may keep 787 grounded until 2014

MIT chemistry professor suggests Boeing switch from lithium-ion batteries to the heavier but safer nickel metal-hydride battery, a process that could take a year.

"In a large format battery, heat can be generated faster than it dissipates to the surroundings with the result that the temperature of the battery can rise to dangerously high levels which leads to bloating and ultimately fire," he said. But designing, building, and testing a new control system for the NiMH batteries could take a year, Sadoway said. Short of replacing the batteries outright, Sadoway also suggests Boeing create vents in the battery box that allows them to dissipate heat, as well as install temperature sensors to ensure that batteries stay within a safe range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My understanding is that there will be some series of bandaids applied to the situation to make the planes airworthy again.

That might be that the flight crew must "visually inspect battery compartment each flight for heat damage" or other ridiculous ass covering process. Or it could be more invasive; training crews on how to put out a lithium fire, extra fire extinguishers, physical inspection or test by a qualified mechanic/engineer each leg/sector, etc. I would expect there to be a restriction on ETOP (Extended Twin-engine OPerationS), or no ETOPS at all.

They could require a certified mechanic/engineer be on every flight. There are LOTS of options on how to mitigate the potential loss of a plane due to this calamity.

But, they will get these planes flying again, sooner than later. While the planes are flying under the restrictions of the Airworthiness Directive (AD), then Boeing (or anybody else for that matter) can develop a "Supplemental Type Certificate" (STC) approved new LiFePO4 battery and BMS, maybe with TMS, too.

They will make MILLIONS of dollars with such a fix.

 

[surfingslovak]

Thank you for that perspective. You have to wonder why the press seems to prefer electrochemists instead of aviation experts. Perhaps the story would sound less alarming then?

 

[MikeD]

From BBC News: "Dreamliner: Boeing 787 aircraft battery 'not faulty'" -- Airline safety inspectors have found no faults with the battery used on Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, Japan's transport ministry has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21230940" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[wishboneash]

The Boeing 787 Dreamliner's high-profile battery fire may have been the result of an engineering double-whammy: an energetic battery chemistry combined with a possibly inadequate cooling system.

http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=257987&cid=NL_Newsletters+-+DN+Daily&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_aero,aid_257987&dfpLayout=article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

Seattle Times: At least 100 batteries failed on 787 fleet:
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020241385_787deadbatteriesxml.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This quote I thought was interesting/odd:

Because lithium-ion batteries can be dangerously volatile if undercharged, as well as when overcharged, an automatic cutoff is built into the 787 batteries so that if the charge falls below 15 percent of full, the battery locks.

NY Times: Boeing Battery Was a Concern Before Failure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/business/boeing-aware-of-battery-ills-before-the-fires.html?hp=&_r=2&smid=tw-nytimes&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elon Musk: Boeing 787 battery fundamentally unsafe:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-787-battery-fundamentally-unsafe-381627/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://priuschat.com/threads/lithium-ion-boeing-787.120999/page-2#post-1728815" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some interesting insights.

 

[Herm]

This quote I thought was interesting/odd

Volatile the next time you attempt to recharge that low battery, one reversed cell is all you need for a fire with that chemistry..

 

[TomT]

"Federal safety officials said Thursday they have identified the origin of the battery fire on a Boeing 787 Dreamliner last month, and are turning their microscopes on an aircraft approval process in which the airplane builder evidently greatly underestimated the chances of battery failure..."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/07/travel/dreamliner-battery-investigation/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqCZZ-Er3Q[/youtube]

 

[surfingslovak]

Airbus to drop lithium-ion batteries in A350

Airbus abandoned its plans to use lithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes due to the uncertainty surrounding the technology following the grounding of Boeing's 787, the company said. The European aerospace group said Thursday it would revert to conventional nickel-cadmium batteries for the A350. The plane is a wide-body long-range jet rival to the 787 and is expected to make its first flight around the middle of the year. Airbus says it does not expect the battery switch to delay the A350's schedule.

 

[ERG4ALL]

This has probably been mentioned before, but living in Phoenix with severe heat (i.e. 115 degrees ambient and 140 pavement temperatures) and severe usage (i.e. jack rabbit starts and 75 mph freeway commuting), I have not heard of a single LEAF battery running away with itself and causing a fire. I'd say Nissan has it pretty well thought out after more than 20 years of studying battery chemistry. I just wonder why Boeing wouldn't consider approaching Nissan with how they do it, perhaps even supply the batteries to Boeing.

 

[RegGuheert]

Airbus to drop lithium-ion batteries in A350

Airbus abandoned its plans to use lithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes due to the uncertainty surrounding the technology following the grounding of Boeing's 787, the company said. The European aerospace group said Thursday it would revert to conventional nickel-cadmium batteries for the A350. The plane is a wide-body long-range jet rival to the 787 and is expected to make its first flight around the middle of the year. Airbus says it does not expect the battery switch to delay the A350's schedule.

That's probably as much a sales decision as a technical one. By making this switch now, they not only alleviate their customers' fears, but they increase the fear of the B787 customers, which will tend to force Boeing's hand on this issue. Strategically a very smart move, and well-timed.

 

[ericsf]

Cold fusion "scientists" to the rescue of the rest of the clueless world: http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013...rs-as-triggers-for-lithium-ion-battery-fires/

 

[cwerdna]

I stumbled across this at TTAC: The Truth About Battery Life:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/02/the-truth-about-battery-life/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at the high-end of consumer electronics we have the lithium iron phosphate-dimethyl carbonate-graphite battery known as the Lithium-ion battery, or the battery that powers modern cell phones, laptops, electric cars and is even used in the new Boeing 787. (Yea, the one getting the bad press.)

The above doesn't sound right to me given that we've established from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=259875#p259875" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that the 787 uses lithium cobalt oxide.

The rest of the article seems decent, to the uninitiated. At least the TTAC article points to http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which I hadn't seen before.

 

[evnow]

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020505762_ntsb787reportxml.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NTSB: Boeing outsourced key 787 battery safety analysis

The safety agency released its findings Thursday on its investigation of the Japan Airlines 787 fire at the Boston airport on January 7.

 

[surfingslovak]

Mitsubishi reports fire in i-MiEV battery pack, melting in Outlander PHEV pack

GS Yuasa is also the supplier of the Li-ion battery pack for the Boeing 787; that pack is different from the Mitsubishi packs in manufacturing process, design and chemistry, Boeing said.

Click to open

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yeah, I heard about the Mitsubishi GS Yuasa battery issue the other day, supposedly causing GS Yuasa's stock to further fall. I was a bit puzzled as I thought the i-Miev used Toshiba SCiB batteries.

 

[surfingslovak]

I thought the i-Miev used Toshiba SCiB batteries.

Hm, perhaps you were thinking of Honda Fit EV? The i-MiEV always used cells from GS Yuasa, at least if memory serves.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Nope. Google for mitsubishi toshiba scib battery. Not sure if there's some misreporting back then or now or whether there are different batteries depending on the region.