Lease is up ... Leaf or Bolt ?

[SageBrush]

^^
I've told you,
Spend some time posting anecdotes of LEAF battery degradation.
It should keep you happily occupied

 

[cwerdna]

Spend some time posting anecdotes of LEAF battery degradation.
It should keep you happily occupied

We already have plenty of threads to track those (examples below, two started by me). But, arguably, their batteries didn't fail. They still charge properly, propel the vehicle, don't trigger DTCs nor have range collapse (due to a bad cell/module).

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18269
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606

I'm not making excuses for degradation though. Obviously, the pre-4/2013 Leaf batteries turned out to be garbage and fell WAY short of Nissan's claims. And, obviously, numerous factors esp. climate have an influence on how much or little a Leaf battery of a given chemistry degrades over time.

 

[SageBrush]

Spend some time posting anecdotes of LEAF battery degradation.
It should keep you happily occupied

We already have plenty of threads to track those

-
No where near enough to display the scope of the problems.

Have at it

 

[LeftieBiker]

That's hand-waving, Sagebrush. Possibly excepting WetEV, few here try to deny or ignore Leaf battery degradation. Why do you want to ignore or brush away problems with Teslas?

 

[SageBrush]

^^ I want context, e.g. how severe and how frequent.

Cwerdna collects and posts every negative anecdote of Model X;
I want him to do the same for the LEAF

What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

 

[WetEV]

That's hand-waving, Sagebrush. Possibly excepting WetEV, few here try to deny or ignore Leaf battery degradation. Why do you want to ignore or brush away problems with Teslas?

You are confusing me with someone else.

 

[LeftieBiker]

^^ I want context, e.g. how severe and how frequent.

Cwerdna collects and posts every negative anecdote of Model X;
I want him to do the same for the LEAF

What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

Cwerdna has posted plenty of examples of Leaf battery degradation. You don't get to tell him how many of which kind of issues, with which car, he documents. If he ignored Leaf issues while only posting Tesla problems, you'd have a point. He doesn't, and you don't. As it is you're starting to seem more like a Tesla Fanboy than I would have imagined possible for such a critical thinker.

 

[SageBrush]

^^ If I read to you like a fan boy it only means you are not reading for comprehension.
Post Tesla criticism -- with context.
Post LEAF criticism -- with context.

If a LEAF problem is 5x, 10x, or 20x more common than a Tesla problem it is disingenuous to post four negative anecdotes of each and say each is covered fairly. Context is missing: how severe, and how frequent.

 

[cwerdna]

Every single year that there's been enough data in Consumer Reports, Model X has either been in the bottom 10 vehicles in terms of reliability or dead last.

This is where

CR fails, because they do not weight the problem

s. A squeak, or having to open and close the falcon door twice to get it to close is a lot different than being stranded.

Not true.

From https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq/

How Is the survey conducted?
Consumer Reports’ Survey Department conducts the survey each year. In the survey, we ask members to note any problems with their cars that occurred in the past 12 months. They are asked to identify problems that they considered serious (because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime). We ask them to include problems covered by warranty, but not the ones resulting from accident damage or due solely to recall. Respondents check off problems from a list of trouble areas, ranging from the engine and transmission to climate system, brakes, electrical system, and power accessories. They also tell us specifically what their experiences were to help us understand precisely what problems they are having. (See the full list of trouble spots below.)
...
Are all problems considered equally serious?
Engine major, engine cooling, transmission major, and drive system problems are more likely to take a car out of service and to be more expensive to repair than the other problem areas. Consequently, we weight these areas more heavily in our calculations of model year Overall Reliability Verdict. Problems such as broken trim and in-car electronics have a much smaller weight. Problems in any area can be an expense and a bother, though, so we report them all in the Reliability History charts.
...
The Overall Reliability Verdict summarizes a model's overall reliability over all 17 trouble spots. Because problems with the engine major, cooling, transmission-major, and drive system can be serious and more expensive to repair, our calculation gives extra weight to problems in these areas.
...
Each of the 17 trouble spots is weighted differently in calculated the overall reliability score, with additional emphasis add for problems that can leave you stranded and those that are expensive to repair.

Just because a car doesn't strand you doesn't make it reliable.

I've been here on MNL since mid-2011. From what I've observed, 2011 to 2017 Leafs are reasonably reliable. Model X looks like a disaster, in comparison. I'm sure I can find other reliability surveys that show the X is far inferior to the Leaf and Prius in reliability.

There are some troubling reports I sometimes see on '18 and '19 Leafs though (both here and on some Leaf FB groups I'm on).

 

[SageBrush]

From what I've observed, 2011 to 2017 Leafs are reasonably reliable.

If you were not wearing rose tinted glasses, you would note that the average miles driven a year in the LEAF fleet is ~ 1/2 of ICE or Tesla so you have no reasonable comparison basis.

... ... And now I expect you to post an anecdote or two of LEAFs that have reached 100k miles.

 

[WetEV]

If you were not wearing rose tinted glasses,

Amusing.

Check your tint.

 

[goldbrick]

I know that a used 2019 would not be an easy find but seeking some help to see if there is one available in your area or if you have a ballpark idea on what it is going for in your area?

Where I live, the rebates/tax credits for a Leaf+ are $15k, before any dealer or Nissan incentives. Just FYI.

 

[iPlug]

Hard to imagine with such generous plug-in incentives in CO how more people don’t have one there, at least as a second vehicle. Not bad in CA, but a bit jealous .

 

[SageBrush]

Hard to imagine with such generous plug-in incentives in CO how more people don’t have one there,

-
Don't worry -- the Colorado dealers have caught on and want some (or all) of the rebate. Killer deals require buying out of state but most people will not take that choice. I bought my Prius Prime for $17k net out of state as a CO resident, and sold it a year later in NM for $21k.

 

[goldbrick]

^yep. There isn't as much negotiating room on the list price here since the rebates are factored into the asking price beforehand. Also, I'm not 100% sure but I think the local util rebate requires the car to be purchased from an 'authorized' dealer so that one ($3500 on a non-plus Leaf, $2500 on a plus) is off the table if buying out of state, although there are probably dealers who will discount the MSRP more than that if you look around and are a good negotiator.

 

[SageBrush]

^yep. There isn't as much negotiating room on the list price here since the rebates are factored into the asking price beforehand. Also, I'm not 100% sure but I think the local util rebate requires the car to be purchased from an 'authorized' dealer so that one ($3500 on a non-plus Leaf, $2500 on a plus) is off the table if buying out of state, although there are probably dealers who will discount the MSRP more than that if you look around and are a good negotiator.

-
The utility rebate is marketing fluff. Just go out of state and let the dealer discount the car.

 

[cwerdna]

From what I've observed, 2011 to 2017 Leafs are reasonably reliable.

If you were not wearing rose tinted glasses, you would note that the average miles driven a year in the LEAF fleet is ~ 1/2 of ICE or Tesla so you have no reasonable comparison basis.

Source? While I could agree that probably the average # miles driven in a Leaf would be less than that of Teslas, claiming it's half sounds like a stretch.

Again from https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq/

How do you account for mileage differences?
Vehicles with higher mileage will most likely experience more problems than vehicles of the same age with lower mileage. We adjust our analyses to minimize differences among models due to varying mileage. Our data are mileage-standardized by dividing cars of each model into groups of high, medium, and low mileage, and employing the statistical technique of direct standardization.

Edmunds for example covered 25K miles in 20 months. Their list of repairs is horrible (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html has details):

During 20 months of ownership, our Model X went in for service seven times, spent 19 days out of commission, and had a total of 32 issues addressed.

Leafs don't have such has extensive list of problems even by the 5 year/60K mile mark.

You think this guy point on a lot on miles in a few days?
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/so-sad-the-x-is-going-back-to-service-center.66455/
Or, how about this guy?
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/horrible-horrible-and-terrible-day.66202/
then later https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/post-initial-problems-with-the-model-x.59839/page-22#post-1515652
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/final-chapter-of-my-story.68057/

I think he finally got his X bought back and replaced with another.

How many Leaf drivers have had their half shafts replaced repeatedly under warranty like these Model X folks?
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/acceleration-shudder.74184/

... ... And now I expect you to post an anecdote or two of LEAFs that have reached 100k miles.

I can post numerous ones. You really want to see them?

 

[SageBrush]

I can post numerous ones. You really want to see them?

.
Absolutely.

Then we can divide by the USA LEAF fleet of ~ 135,000 to see just how misleading anecdotes can be. Has the fleet reached 1/10,000 yet ?

 

[eatsleafsandshoots]

My 2017 has 12 bars, 49k miles, and no battery update. These cars like to be driven. I've seen far less than 10 percent range degradation, probably 5-8 percent. That's about the same as a Tesla with the same amount of miles, though mine probably won't last as long.

 

[WetEV]

I'll take another look at the i-pace. I don't like glass roofs. And the charging port is on the right fender, behind the front wheel, will be awkward in my garage.

Charging port is on the left fender. I'm not sure why the dealer's pictures of the car show the reverse, but they are stock pictures....

Looked at it, don't like it, mostly for practical reasons. Your mileage and taste will vary.