Leaf vs Ford Focus Electric

[planet4ever]

On the Volt boards most calculate that the TMS uses ~400-800 Watts per use and usually will only run once every 2-4 hours.

The TMS usage figures were overall, I think during high heat (or cold) you can take the extreme 800 watts every 2 hours.

Could you please clean up your terminology? I think in both references you must mean watt hours, not watts. Watts is how fast; watt hours is how much. It makes no sense to talk about how fast you can use electricity every two hours.

Ray

 

[LEAFfan]

From my experience (driving 30k in 1.5 years) I see a severe reduced range in the Leaf during the winter. In a cold snap in Texas WITHOUT USING THE HEATER, I get 10+ miles less range (sometimes 15 or more) than I do in the summer running AC. That has nothing to do with the heater consuming power becuase i just suck it up. Did we all forget Tony's range chart? For every 2 degrees below the sweet spot (in the 70's I forget the exact #) it looses range. This was done by Tony after extensive testing. The TMS WILL allow the battery to opperate at a better temperature and therefore give you more range. My wife's Volt - in the summer (mostly 70/30 highway/city split) she gets 50+ miles of range (yes 50, her work is 50 miles away and she can make it on battery alone). Winter time? 45ish. That isn't a large difference. Me on my Leaf? Summer time (at 2 bar reduced capacity) ~72 miles (mixed 65/35 at my best). Winter time (like freezing or below) I get ~58 miles of range. That is a greater wild swing that the Volt every will get.

As for the Volt (i.e. a lower vehicle like the FFE) on the highway, hell yes it does way better. Highway in the summer (all highway) my wife can pull 45-48 miles. Me on the Leaf? 60. Now take that I have 2 bars of loss already, but considering I should have ~75% more battery available (17-18 kWh vs 10.4) I should get a greater increase in range, not the punny amount i get now. In Texas EVERYTHING is highway driving, so the comparison is more pronounced.

For TMS usage, if the FFE uses it even when not plugged (like the Volt), I have found the drain to be extremely minimal. On the Volt boards most calculate that the TMS uses ~400-800 Watts per use and usually will only run once every 2-4 hours. My wife nor I have seen very little impact to range while letting the Volt sit not plugged in. fortunately I don't know the FFE's TMS and it's usag, but they Volt's usage has never depleted an entire bar before, so it's not that power intensive.

Your wife must drive 50mph to work to get 50 miles on battery alone. A LEAF at 50mph would get over 90 miles. If she were to go 65mph, according to a Volt forum, she would only get about 30 miles vs. 84 in a LEAF. So either way, a Volt isn't even close to a LEAF.

 

[GRA]

<snip>

But given this for the FFE, we don't know nearly as much. I *thought* I read somewhere that the TMS is only activated on the FFE when it is plugged in or running, but sitting idle (like in a hot parking lot) it does nothing except send you a message to plug in to protect the battery. I can't remember where I read that though

From the FFE owner's manual:

The A/C system is used to cool both the interior of the vehicle and the high voltage battery. In hot outside temperatures, interior cooling may be temporarily reduced if the high voltage battery requires cooling. Keep the vehicle plugged in (when possible) to allow automatic battery cooling in high temperature conditions."

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/content/~WOCFEV/~MUS~LEN/41/12fevog1e.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

under "Climate Control". I didn't see anything about battery heating.

 

[GRA]

From Green Car Congress:

Basically, Ford is standing by the ratings as determined by the current testing protocols, Nair said, but added that “we absolutely agree with EPA that hybrids are far more variable in the test cycle compared to real world driving conditions in conventional vehicles. We are working closely with the agency to determine if any changes are needed for the industry relative to hybrid vehicle testing.”

And:

"Among the differences Nair spotlighted were:

Speed: the difference between 75 mph and 65 mph can produce a 7 mpg difference in fuel economy.

Outside temperature: a temperature difference 40 °F and 70 °F can result in a 5 mpg difference.

Vehicle break-in: the difference from 0 miles to 6,000 miles can be a 5 mpg difference.

When I drive our hybrids home from Dearborn to Ann Arbor, when I am using all of our coaching tools, I consistently hit the combined number. Unfortunately, that’s not the way I usually drive. So when I drive that hybrid the way I drive my Shelby GT500, I typically lose about 12 mpg. That can be the difference between maximizing the tools available, versus having a little bit of a lead foot like I do."

Full article here:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/12/cmax-20121215.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Ok GRA from your post it would seem that TMS is primarily concerned with keeping the battery cool rather than warm which is understandable since heat is where most of the damage occurs. This might imply that the Focus may suffer near the same loss of range as the LEAF. But then again, I cant imagine a climate control system worse than the LEAFs so a Focus owner might be more comfortable.

either way, i take quick charge any day. I know its hard for people who dont have it available but for people like me that do; it is a major major game changer

 

[SirLeaf]

To me, driving an electric car makes a bold statement that you're on the cutting edge. No matter how expensive or luxurious the car is that's next to me at the red light, my leaf makes it look like a decaying dinosaur. I like that it looks like an electric car. The FFE is a good looking car. It's a REGULAR-looking car as well. I don't want to drive an electric car that looks like a regular car. That, to me, sort of defeats the point of enjoying being (and looking) different. Plus, open the FFE's trunk and get a laugh! Who the heck could ever make practical use of that "cargo space"... it's truly a joke.

I'll stick with my Leaf. (Plus, even the name is cool.)

SirLeaf

 

[RegGuheert]

(Plus, even the name is cool.)

That's what I thought until I found out what the name meant: Let's fix the LEAF acronym for Nissan!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

To me, driving an electric car makes a bold statement that you're on the cutting edge. No matter how expensive or luxurious the car is that's next to me at the red light, my leaf makes it look like a decaying dinosaur. I like that it looks like an electric car. The FFE is a good looking car. It's a REGULAR-looking car as well. I don't want to drive an electric car that looks like a regular car. That, to me, sort of defeats the point of enjoying being (and looking) different. Plus, open the FFE's trunk and get a laugh! Who the heck could ever make practical use of that "cargo space"... it's truly a joke.

I'll stick with my Leaf. (Plus, even the name is cool.)

SirLeaf

very well put! felt the same way about my Prius 8 years ago and feel that way about my LEAF. i want to shout "YES, THIS IS AN EV and YOU CAN DO IT TOO!"

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/11/move-on.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SirLeaf]

(Plus, even the name is cool.)

That's what I thought until I found out what the name meant: Let's fix the LEAF acronym for Nissan!

Indeed, but I honestly think the word LEAF was first (since it denotes "natural" better than most anything) and they "shoe-horned' it into that acronym. To me, LEAF is the green thing on a tree... not the silly acronym that nobody knows anyway.

 

[x10guy]

To me, driving an electric car makes a bold statement that you're on the cutting edge. No matter how expensive or luxurious the car is that's next to me at the red light, my leaf makes it look like a decaying dinosaur. I like that it looks like an electric car. The FFE is a good looking car. It's a REGULAR-looking car as well. I don't want to drive an electric car that looks like a regular car. That, to me, sort of defeats the point of enjoying being (and looking) different. Plus, open the FFE's trunk and get a laugh! Who the heck could ever make practical use of that "cargo space"... it's truly a joke.

I'll stick with my Leaf. (Plus, even the name is cool.)

SirLeaf

That's good to hear. Glad you are so bold. I actually feel a bit different. I really like the way the FFE looks over the Leaf for the opposite reasons you mentioned. Just like all cars, there are varying tastes and opinions But I definitely agree with you are the cargo space in the FFE. It's embarrassingly small.

 

[GRA]

To me, driving an electric car makes a bold statement that you're on the cutting edge. No matter how expensive or luxurious the car is that's next to me at the red light, my leaf makes it look like a decaying dinosaur. I like that it looks like an electric car. The FFE is a good looking car. It's a REGULAR-looking car as well. I don't want to drive an electric car that looks like a regular car. That, to me, sort of defeats the point of enjoying being (and looking) different. Plus, open the FFE's trunk and get a laugh! Who the heck could ever make practical use of that "cargo space"... it's truly a joke.

I'll stick with my Leaf. (Plus, even the name is cool.)

SirLeaf

That's good to hear. Glad you are so bold. I actually feel a bit different. I really like the way the FFE looks over the Leaf for the opposite reasons you mentioned. Just like all cars, there are varying tastes and opinions But I definitely agree with you are the cargo space in the FFE. It's embarrassingly small.

Essentially the difference is between that of early adopters who wish to make a statement for ideological/image/PR reasons, and the people who just want to drive a car that happens to be electric. It will be necessary to capture the latter group if PEVs are to become mainstream.

 

[kubel]

Essentially the difference is between that of early adopters who wish to make a statement for ideological/image/PR reasons, and the people who just want to drive a car that happens to be electric. It will be necessary to capture the latter group if PEVs are to become mainstream.

I'm in that latter group. My gas car is a V8 sedan, gets 17MPG- so you know I'm not very environmentally conscious (although the experience of owning an EV has caused me to pay attention to green issues a little more). I like the LEAF simply because it's electric. Electric drive is awesome. It's quiet, smooth, linear, high tech... There are other reasons such as my desire to rid myself of my oil addiction (because I'm not a fan of the wars, the funding of dictators, the blowback as a result), but mostly, it's because electric drive is really cool, and internal combustion is less cool.

 

[SirLeaf]

To me, driving an electric car makes a bold statement that you're on the cutting edge. No matter how expensive or luxurious the car is that's next to me at the red light, my leaf makes it look like a decaying dinosaur. I like that it looks like an electric car. The FFE is a good looking car. It's a REGULAR-looking car as well. I don't want to drive an electric car that looks like a regular car. That, to me, sort of defeats the point of enjoying being (and looking) different. Plus, open the FFE's trunk and get a laugh! Who the heck could ever make practical use of that "cargo space"... it's truly a joke.

I'll stick with my Leaf. (Plus, even the name is cool.)

SirLeaf

That's good to hear. Glad you are so bold. I actually feel a bit different. I really like the way the FFE looks over the Leaf for the opposite reasons you mentioned. Just like all cars, there are varying tastes and opinions But I definitely agree with you are the cargo space in the FFE. It's embarrassingly small.

Essentially the difference is between that of early adopters who wish to make a statement for ideological/image/PR reasons, and the people who just want to drive a car that happens to be electric. It will be necessary to capture the latter group if PEVs are to become mainstream.

Agreed. I think, in my case, it's just a matter of liking to do things a bit differently than the masses.

And, oh... making some of the "I'm better than thou" Prius owners feel like they're driving archaic gas guzzlers doesn't hurt, either. :lol:

 

[SSS]

After 3 years anticipation, the FFE was my choice, based mostly on sporty looks and factory options, but a 2012 Leaf is being fed electrons in my garage now, because Nissan is totally committed to their EV brand and its future. The contrast with Ford couldn't be more graphic. In my area, the Ford dealers are not selling any new EVs, while the local Nissan guys are pushing the Leaf with huge discounts and incentives.
So my Leaf looks a little froggy, it's a fun car to drive and we are saving at least $450 each month in fuel costs, plus all the other $$ to keep a petrol vehicle running smoothly. OK, I'm learning a frog can look mighty nice to my bank balance.

 

[Boomer23]

I drove the FFE at a recent Ford drive event here in Southern California. The test drive course had some curves and I was able to experience the handling on a mild curve at around 30 mph under acceleration. The FFE handled quite well and the steering feel reminded me how good a car with a well designed suspension can feel to drive. After driving only our LEAF and Prius for the past 18 months, I'm sad to realize how much driving pleasure I've sacrificed recently.

I'm so ready for a good handling EV with decent steering feel. Those will be "must haves" for me for my next EV. I'm really grateful to Nissan for their strong commitment to building the first mass market EV with real usability for many families, but I'll be moving on to another company's offering in 2014 unless Nissan offers an EV with decent driving dynamics. I probably won't choose the FFE because of the lack of QC and the interior space limitations, as well as the fact that Ford isn't really demonstrating commitment to the BEV market, but that Focus platform's handling and road feel are impressive.

 

[SirLeaf]

I drove the FFE at a recent Ford drive event here in Southern California. The test drive course had some curves and I was able to experience the handling on a mild curve at around 30 mph under acceleration. The FFE handled quite well and the steering feel reminded me how good a car with a well designed suspension can feel to drive. After driving only our LEAF and Prius for the past 18 months, I'm sad to realize how much driving pleasure I've sacrificed recently.

I'm so ready for a good handling EV with decent steering feel. Those will be "must haves" for me for my next EV. I'm really grateful to Nissan for their strong commitment to building the first mass market EV with real usability for many families, but I'll be moving on to another company's offering in 2014 unless Nissan offers an EV with decent driving dynamics. I probably won't choose the FFE because of the lack of QC and the interior space limitations, as well as the fact that Ford isn't really demonstrating commitment to the BEV market, but that Focus platform's handling and road feel are impressive.

I guess I'm a different kind of driver. I've had the sports cars, and now--for me--I prefer to NOT feel the road much at all. I prefer to FLOAT, if I could (ala hovercraft). But until that's possible, the less I feel what's beneath me, the better.

SirLeaf

 

[Pipcecil]

Your wife must drive 50mph to work to get 50 miles on battery alone. A LEAF at 50mph would get over 90 miles. If she were to go 65mph, according to a Volt forum, she would only get about 30 miles vs. 84 in a LEAF. So either way, a Volt isn't even close to a LEAF.

I know it seems way off, but I drive half the same route with her to work, and she keeps up with me on the highway 60-65 depending on the section of roadway. She does hit some traffic partly along the way but again picks it back up to 60-65. It really sounds unreal, but she does it every day. She probably gets a good break when she hits traffic for 15 or so minutes and slows down to the 30's. She is definitely not driving 50 mph in 60-65 she HATES slow drivers and refuses to drive anything below the speed limit (and if she has extra battery, she drives faster). She has taken my Leaf to work many times before; she can make it there but there isn't enough charging (L1 for 9 hours) to get back home without QCing now (2 bars lost on capacity). When it was brand new she could make the round trip with the 9 hours of Level 1 with 2-3 bars spare remaining. When its was cold with almost 1 bar loss, she would make it to work at LBW and was forced to QC on the way home. I don't know what would occur at 2 bars loss, she hasn't taken it to work since it lost any bars, even during the summer.

 

[klusters]

Thanks for all your comments, they were really helpful. I think its great that people have so many different reasons for going electric. For some its the commitment to reducing their carbon footprint, for others its the high tech, or the quiet clean drive, or the reduced dependence on foreign sourced power. The more reasons there arethe more people will be willing to make the change.

So we ended up choosing the FFE as our second car. I look forward to posting an indepth comparison video between our Leaf and FFE, part of which I hope to do a range comparison that drives the cars until one goes totally dead. If anyone is interested helping out and lives in the northern new jersey area, I would love to hear from you.

thanks again

 

[RegGuheert]

So we ended up choosing the FFE as our second car. I look forward to posting an indepth comparison video between our Leaf and FFE, part of which I hope to do a range comparison that drives the cars until one goes totally dead. If anyone is interested helping out and lives in the northern new jersey area, I would love to hear from you.

Congratulations!

I'll look forward to learning more from you about the comparisons between the two cars!

 

[mhigley]

I salute you fellow EVer! Looking forward to hearing how the cars compare.