Leaf vs Ford Focus Electric

[x10guy]

Sorry, I was under the impression that TMS also helped in cold weather too.

That claim has been made here many times, but I am questioning whether or not that is true.

Hopefully someone will eventually own both a 2013 LEAF and a 2013 FFE who can perform some head-to-head range tests in both hot and cold weather with and without climate control so that we can all learn more about this topic!

I based some of my comments on what I read from plugincars.com (http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric/review) which seemed to indicate that TMS should make a difference. But then again, I have never tested so I am only going by what I read... which obviously very often is wrong. (NEVER trust what you read in reviews...)

 

[x10guy]

Sorry, I was under the impression that TMS also helped in cold weather too.

That claim has been made here many times, but I am questioning whether or not that is true.

Hopefully someone will eventually own both a 2013 LEAF and a 2013 FFE who can perform some head-to-head range tests in both hot and cold weather with and without climate control so that we can all learn more about this topic!

I based some of my comments on what I read from plugincars.com (http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric/review) which seemed to indicate that TMS should make a difference. But then again, I have never tested so I am only going by what I read... which obviously very often is wrong. (Note to self: NEVER trust what you read in reviews...)

 

[evnow]

I based some of my comments on what I read from plugincars.com (http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric/review) which seemed to indicate that TMS should make a difference. But then again, I have never tested so I am only going by what I read... which obviously very often is wrong. (NEVER trust what you read in reviews...)

TMS does make a difference (on paper). But, there is no way to quantify it - if cars with TMS allowed you to turn off TMS, then one could make a good comparison. But they don't.

 

[klusters]

I found this interesting from the edmunds review (http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus/2012/road-test4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false:

" the Focus is also more efficient than the Leaf despite weighing 249 pounds more. The EPA says the Focus Electric should use 32 kWh of electricity every 100 miles compared to 34 kWh/100 miles for the Leaf. This in turn leads to the Ford's superior range (76 miles versus 73) despite its slightly smaller battery."

The folks over at the FFE forum seem to average about 26 kWh/100 - a 30% improvement in ideal weather conditions.
While at the same token, 34 kWh is only 2.9 miles/kW on the Leaf which is easy to bump up by 50% in ideal weather conditions.

Perhaps the Leaf got lower ratings on the EPA scale, but from what I have read and experienced , it seems to be easier to best those numbers in a Leaf vs the FFE

Found this interesting as well (also from edmunds):

"Efficient regenerative braking is key to the efficiency of the Focus, enabled in part by the Ford's larger electric motor-generator (107 kW versus 80 for the Leaf) and greater charging capacity."

I'm not sure how a larger motor would allow for more efficient regenerative braking...any ideas?

 

[ksnogas2112]

No one has mentioned but it's a pet peeve of mine, plug location. I really love the plug access at the front of the Leaf. I don't find the side wheelwell access on the Volt, FFE, etc to be convenient or practical. I think the front plug access is much more flexible for accessing public devices.

The other thing I love about the Leaf access is the double access hatch. The front shield helps protect the plug access and then there's the plastic covers. I would be willing to leave the hatch popped for cable sharing in an open environment that I wouldn't do with a Volt or FFE because of the plug design.

Just my 2 cents. Here's your complimentary pick axe to poke holes in it.

 

[x10guy]

No one has mentioned but it's a pet peeve of mine, plug location. I really love the plug access at the front of the Leaf. I don't find the side wheelwell access on the Volt, FFE, etc to be convenient or practical. I think the front plug access is much more flexible for accessing public devices.

Good point. The Toyota Prius Plug-In is even worse than the Volt or FFE. That is about the worst place to put a charge plug.

But I don't like how the release for the Leaf is inside the car and under the dash.

 

[mhigley]

As an old timey EV guy, I can't help but grin reading about the pros and cons of two different production EVs. It warms my heart.

 

[TomT]

Perhaps more braking before friction brakes are necessary...

I'm not sure how a larger motor would allow for more efficient regenerative braking...any ideas?

 

[LEAFfan]

But I don't like how the release for the Leaf is inside the car and under the dash.

That's being changed for the 2013. It will have a switch on the top row next to where the timer override is and a remote open on the fob.
It will also have more regen than ECO which will increase the range.

 

[Electric4Me]

But I don't like how the release for the Leaf is inside the car and under the dash.

Though it would have been nice had it come from Nissan, some of us have added releases at the front of the car...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?style=3&f=37&t=3930

 

[RegGuheert]

I am less confident today of the effects of lower battery capacity than I was last year, as I am far less confident in the consistency and accuracy of my LEAFs m/kWh reports, but the overall range reduction of about 10% for that temperature reduction still seems about right, to me.

10% reduction in range for the LEAF without heat may be about right. That's about 7 or 8 miles, not 20. But note that in the thread you linked, reported mi/kWh dropped by 20% from 80F to 30F, which is also what I see. That would imply that battery capacity went up, no? I don't think that's what happened, so I'll conclude the gauges have a strong temperature coefficient.

So, how much of the drop in range is due to a drop in battery capacity and how much is due to other cold-weather effects? It's hard to say, but I suspect a TMS would waste any extra energy storage that it achieved trying to keep the battery warm as it gets colder.

Again, I think some range test comparisons between the LEAF and the FFE would shed some light on whether TMS is a benefit or a drawback in cold weather.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The car is lower and smaller - therefore highway range is significantly better than the leaf. Having a leaf and a volt, the volt can almost match the range of the leaf on the highway with a significnatly smaller battery. If you do more highway driving this is something to consider, which is probably why the offical FFE range is slightly better.

A LEAF can easily double the Volts EV range with semi reasonable driving

My observation is that the wintertime range hit comes largely because of the heater and has less to do with battery capacity. In other words, I believe I can drive our LEAF nearly as far in 30F weather as I can drive it in 90F weather, as long as I do not use the climate control in either case.

you will see a winter time hit. period. its simply physics. http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/12/early-winter-2012-range-test.html

yesterday , I drove 75 miles with 5 miles to spare. If driving economically in Summer, I would do 90+ driving same route.

besides battery chemistry which does do better in warmer temps (access to about 18 Kwh. with my 5-7% degradation i should have access to 20 Kwh. so 2 Kwh gone due to 37º temps.

cold air is denser. car has to push harder. so I averaged 4.5 miles/kwh instead of the 5.2 I did last Summer. that is more range lost.

also rolling resistance. much higher chance of rain/snow on the roads in Winter than Summer. another range hit.

all that is gone BEFORE you hit that heater.

now the question of whether TMS will help in winter? good one. on the one hand, you would not lose that 2 Kwh but how much power do you spend to preserve it? 1.75 kwh? might not be worth it since it would have to be running most of the time in very cold weather.

 

[RegGuheert]

cold air is denser. car has to push harder. so I averaged 4.5 miles/kwh instead of the 5.2 I did last Summer. that is more range lost.

also rolling resistance. much higher chance of rain/snow on the roads in Winter than Summer. another range hit.

These effects are the same whether or not the car has TMS. In other words, the FFE will experience the exact same reductions as the LEAF here.

all that is gone BEFORE you hit that heater.

Yes, but The FFE ONLY has the potential to increase the battery capacity. OTOH, it has one additional loss that the LEAF does not: energy is used to heat the battery. How much? I'm not sure.

now the question of whether TMS will help in winter? good one. on the one hand, you would not lose that 2 Kwh but how much power do you spend to preserve it? 1.75 kwh? might not be worth it since it would have to be running most of the time in very cold weather.

Since we cannot separate reductions in battery capacity from reductions in efficiency through a range test, you cannot say that TMS would save the entire 2 kWh. Perhaps battery capacity only dropped by 1 kWh and the rest was lost to other things.

 

[Pipcecil]

From my experience (driving 30k in 1.5 years) I see a severe reduced range in the Leaf during the winter. In a cold snap in Texas WITHOUT USING THE HEATER, I get 10+ miles less range (sometimes 15 or more) than I do in the summer running AC. That has nothing to do with the heater consuming power becuase i just suck it up. Did we all forget Tony's range chart? For every 2 degrees below the sweet spot (in the 70's I forget the exact #) it looses range. This was done by Tony after extensive testing. The TMS WILL allow the battery to opperate at a better temperature and therefore give you more range. My wife's Volt - in the summer (mostly 70/30 highway/city split) she gets 50+ miles of range (yes 50, her work is 50 miles away and she can make it on battery alone). Winter time? 45ish. That isn't a large difference. Me on my Leaf? Summer time (at 2 bar reduced capacity) ~72 miles (mixed 65/35 at my best). Winter time (like freezing or below) I get ~58 miles of range. That is a greater wild swing that the Volt every will get.

As for the Volt (i.e. a lower vehicle like the FFE) on the highway, hell yes it does way better. Highway in the summer (all highway) my wife can pull 45-48 miles. Me on the Leaf? 60. Now take that I have 2 bars of loss already, but considering I should have ~75% more battery available (17-18 kWh vs 10.4) I should get a greater increase in range, not the punny amount i get now. In Texas EVERYTHING is highway driving, so the comparison is more pronounced.

For TMS usage, if the FFE uses it even when not plugged (like the Volt), I have found the drain to be extremely minimal. On the Volt boards most calculate that the TMS uses ~400-800 Watts per use and usually will only run once every 2-4 hours. My wife nor I have seen very little impact to range while letting the Volt sit not plugged in. Unfortuantely I don't know the FFE's TMS and it's usage, but they Volt's usage has never depleted an entire bar before, so it's not that power intensive.

 

[RegGuheert]

From my experience (driving 30k in 1.5 years) I see a severe reduced range in the Leaf during the winter. In a cold snap in Texas WITHOUT USING THE HEATER, I get 10+ miles less range (sometimes 15 or more) than I do in the summer running AC. That has nothing to do with the heater consuming power becuase i just suck it up.

I see about 10 miles difference between 90F and 30F.

Did we all forget Tony's range chart? For every 2 degrees below the sweet spot (in the 70's I forget the exact #) it looses range. This was done by Tony after extensive testing.

Nope, I haven't forgotten Tony's chart. Thanks, Tony!

Still, Tony's charts tell us virtually nothing about whether or not a TMS will improve cold-weather range. They tell us about the effects of temperature on the range of the LEAF. They do NOT tell us anything about how *available* capacity of the LEAF battery changes with temperature. It is entirely possible that the BMS in the LEAF provides access to MORE battery capacity as the temperature drops and that the drop in range we see is due entirely to other effects. In fact, that is exactly the story that the instruments in the LEAF tell us. IMO, such an approach to BMS would be far preferrable in a cold climate to adding a TMS.

The TMS WILL allow the battery to opperate at a better temperature and therefore give you more range. My wife's Volt - in the summer (mostly 70/30 highway/city split) she gets 50+ miles of range (yes 50, her work is 50 miles away and she can make it on battery alone). Winter time? 45ish.

Just passed 4k mark... Still loving the car despite 23-28 mile range in winter time.

The anecdotal evidence on the cold-weather range of the Volt seems to cover a wide range. If I take both quotes at face value, then I might conclude that Volt range is heavily affected by the hills in Seattle, but I do not know.

On the Volt boards most calculate that the TMS uses ~400-800 Watts per use and usually will only run once every 2-4 hours.

I'll guess that's what people see when *cooling* the battery down on 100F days, not when heating the battery on 30F days. BTW, does the Volt TMS use a heat pump or does it use a resistive heater? How about the FFE?

 

[edatoakrun]

I am less confident today of the effects of lower battery capacity than I was last year, as I am far less confident in the consistency and accuracy of my LEAFs m/kWh reports, but the overall range reduction of about 10% for that temperature reduction still seems about right, to me.

10% reduction in range for the LEAF without heat may be about right. That's about 7 or 8 miles, not 20. But note that in the thread you linked, reported mi/kWh dropped by 20% from 80F to 30F, which is also what I see. That would imply that battery capacity went up, no? I don't think that's what happened, so I'll conclude the gauges have a strong temperature coefficient.

So, how much of the drop in range is due to a drop in battery capacity and how much is due to other cold-weather effects? It's hard to say...

Actually, the percentage reduction from the "hot" to the "cold" 2011 range tests was only ~4% in m/kWh , and ~5% as reported by CW in kWh used (see below) (which may be more accurate than the dash report, IMO). If you are seeing a 20% drop in m/kWh, with all other variables controlled (no heater or AC use, speed and driver efficiency identical, dry weather, etc.) I strongly suspect suspect you received erroneous m/kWh reports from one or both your test drives.

edatoakrun...My trip... on 8/30 was 87.6 miles by odometer (85.5 miles by Carwings-see other thread for info on this 2.5% discrepancy) with between 5,000 and 5,500 ft. of total ascent and descent, carwings reports 16.8 kWh consumed and 5.1 m/kWh. I believe my total battery capacity after charging to 100%, was about 20.4 kWh.

When I made the (almost) identical drive on 11/8 of 88 miles (85.9 as reported by CW) CW reported 17.6 kWh consumed and 4.9 m/kWh. I believe my total battery capacity when I left home with a 100% charge was probably close to 19.4 kWh....

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6701&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I mentioned previously, my confidence in those figures has been reduced since I now believe my LEAFs m/kWh and kWh use reports may have significantly changed from the (presumably) more accurate reports I was getting last year, and part of this "drift" might have occurred between those two tests I ran last year.

I did those two drives in 2011 as close together in time as possible. I have been unable to repeat the same test run since last October, but will try it match the condition of the 2011 the cold test, as soon as my schedule, and the weather, permit.

I hope this will help me to resolve the mystery of my own LEAFs (apparently) erroneous recent M/kWh and kWh use reports.

 

[Pipcecil]

The anecdotal evidence on the cold-weather range of the Volt seems to cover a wide range. If I take both quotes at face value, then I might conclude that Volt range is heavily affected by the hills in Seattle, but I do not know.

I'll guess that's what people see when *cooling* the battery down on 100F days, not when heating the battery on 30F days. BTW, does the Volt TMS use a heat pump or does it use a resistive heater? How about the FFE?

You are absolutely right, there are many variables that affect the range, driving habits, mi/kWh usage, hills (its flat here), humidity/precepitation (thicker air reduces range as well as wet roads). I do know my wife is better at conservative driving, but refuses to uses the Volts "Eco" equaivalent. I am still no slacker myself and have a lifetime of about 4.0 mi/kWh despite a good amount of highway driving (again no Eco here either). I know the volt has a better efficiency ratio than the Leaf, mostly due to size and lower ground clearance. I don't think the FFE has better aerodynamics (being its really just a conversion from an ICE), but the smaller car and lower ground clearance help with higher speeds, but can that overcome a slightly less aero design?

The TMS usage figures were overall, I think during high heat (or cold) you can take the extreme 800 watts every 2 hours. Could it be worse in cold outside up north? My guess is probably yes since I would think it would be more extreme than most data they were getting. BTW those numbers were gotten when the cars were plugged in (so they could determine watt usage). The Volt's TMS is kind-of complicated when uplugged. If the car is highly charged it turns it on, but at varying SoC %s it reduces when the TMS will turn on (i.e. it allows a greater variation of temperature ranges before it turns on). If I recall correctly if the battery is below 33% (usable) the TMS will only come on in an emergency, if there is not battery power, it will not kick on at all.

I know the heating in the Volt for the cabin is done via heat pump. Some critize it for being weak (its not near as powerful as the Leaf), but it is more efficient, so its a give or take. I honestly don't know how the Volt heats it's liquid for the battery temp control. Does it use the same heat pump or is there another way it heats the fluid?

But given this for the FFE, we don't know nearly as much. I *thought* I read somewhere that the TMS is only activated on the FFE when it is plugged in or running, but sitting idle (like in a hot parking lot) it does nothing except send you a message to plug in to protect the battery. I can't remember where I read that though

 

[Weatherman]

It would be nice if there was recent, more detailed information on how the TMS in the Volt and FFE work (when it turns on and off). I know the Volt doesn't even have a battery temperature gauge (I don't know about the FFE), so I'm not sure there's an easy way to determine how well the TMS is keeping the temperature in line.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I know the heating in the Volt for the cabin is done via heat pump. Some critize it for being weak (its not near as powerful as the Leaf), but it is more efficient, so its a give or take. I honestly don't know how the Volt heats it's liquid for the battery temp control. Does it use the same heat pump or is there another way it heats the fluid?...

I don't think the volt uses a heat pump, just resistive heating.

The volt will also start the ICE just to heat the cabin, when it is cold enough. I've also seen it reported that the Volt will start the ICE for battery heating while driving, but the consensus below indicates otherwise:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-16928.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think this discussion is going down a road that got many of us in trouble to begin with. Evaluating a driving need based on the maximum possible miles on can get on a charge is a mistake. In either vehicle, if you must drive more than about 50 miles without a charge, I suggest you look elsewhere.

IF you will drive near 50 miles you should lease. if you drive less, than consider buying. There will eventually be more charging options. EVs still have a long way to go to reach critical mass. in fact, i dont think its possible until nearly every major auto manufacturer gets serious about providing EVs. At this point, its Nissan, Tesla and... well, the rest have plans i guess you could say

But wide spread adoption of EVs will push laws into their favor. Federal laws like handicap parking laws, Required Employee charging (at least a few), etc. All that is barely a dream in our minds but when local legislators start to realize that not buying gas locally feeds that additional money into the local economy, they will start to support EVs and that will trickle up.

New funding for some pilot off shore wind projects will help pave the way. components for Wind generators are 70% US based. that is a very powerful card to play