Just bought a 2012 - hit 8 bars today -wait out the warranty?

[Evoforce]

I doubt the computer has been reset or it wouldn't have been a 2 car loser when you bought it.

As I understand it, it takes a few weeks for all the lost bars to get re-lost after a BMS reset. Thus, if a wholesaler reset it and it was then at the dealership for a couple of weeks, two bars could have been lost, with two more not real but not yet dropped...

And... some other potential customer(s) could have driven the car on test drives and said no thanks. Or some variant to a similar circumstance where it was returned after rapidly losing 2 bars and someone saying "no thanks" and changed their mind after buying.

 

[minispeed]

Ok here's the catch 22 if the car meets your needs now and you can drive on a degraded battery then IF the new battery degrades more rapidly than you had hoped then it will still meet your needs when it degrades.

The resale value of these leafs has tanked and will probably still continue down to $2-3000 in a few years. At that point the extra money you'll get cause your battery was replaced 4 years ago vs 3 years ago won't mean anything.

I say replace it now and enjoy the freedom. The worst case scenario is you do what you would do in the coming years just 4 years down the road instead of doing it now.

If someone said "Hey give me $20 today or maybe give me $20 in 4 years". Your two options are to win or break even.

 

[ceshell]

I must admit, as much as I like the idea of extending the usable life of the car by waiting, the down side is that 44 miles (or barely 30 on a hill) is not what I expected. With the new battery now, I can stop worrying every time I get in the car. The current battery gets me appx 3.3 miles per bar of charge, although for some reason my return commute does gain me a few regen miles, so that 44 is near the peak of my range. My near (battery) death experience on the hill though was too close for comfort.

I did confirm with Nissan Customer Service that there are no exclusions on my VIN and that I would be eligible for a new battery. I asked about the 9-bar refurb and he said they haven't been doing that, they have just been putting new ones in (I know you all know that but it's interesting to hear flat out from Nissan rather than have them say "you'll be eligible for a 9-bar refurb or better.")

I'm less concerned about resale value than lifespan. On the one hand if I wait then perhaps I extend the life span an extra year and a half, but if I wait and they do change policy and put in a refurb, then I'm screwed. The car was just under $9K so a $9K SL with 26K miles and a 12 bar battery is perhaps a gift horse I shouldn't be looking in the mouth...?

 

[Reddy]

ceshell, I know it's hard to wait on the new battery, but remember you will get it! Here are my thoughts:

My advice, if you can wait, then do. The summer is coming and most of the degradation occurs above 80 F. If you can put one summer's degradation on the old battery, that means potentially extending the life of the new battery by nearly a year. Think about that for a while.

Range anxiety is real and everyone experiences it differently. It does get easier with time. In a couple of weeks, you may be as cool as a cucumber. Get LeafSpy, it does help, but really you can get better just using the tools provided in the car.

On a nice Sunday in a safe location (with charging stations that you trust nearby, preferably the same route as your commute) drive the car down past the 1st Low Battery Warning (LBW), past the 2nd VLBW, and all the way to Turtle (then stop immediately and get off the road). Measure the miles between each LBW, VLBW, and turtle. I have found 10 mi between LBW & VLBW and another 10 mi after VLBW on my 2011 Leaf. Turtle gives you somewhere around 1/4 to 1/2 mi, just enough to get pulled over safely. Note, this is different with the newer models, and changes dramatically with temperatures and speeds. Most of my driving is in-town at less than 40 mph, so you won't get that at 75 mph.

I didn't read your location, but nearly everywhere the range gets better in the summer when the battery is a bit warmer. If you're in TX or AZ, and use heat in the winter, then you will probably see something similar. If you don't use heat, but only A/C then you will see some reduced range with A/C on, but not much. My battery hasn't seen 70 F since last fall, and my range is in the 40 mi area. When it's below 30 F, I can see 30 mi range (using heat). This summer it will be back to maybe 60 mi (using A/C). I have seen zero battery degradation all winter, but it's just starting this week as the temperatures have creeped up into the 60 F ambient.

I wish I would get the new battery under warranty, but I've been babying the thing and won't drop my 9th bar until the 6th or 7th year. Hills are always a problem with the guess-o-meter (GOM). After climbing 35 mi uphill to 5000 ft, starting with a full battery, I saw 9 mi on the GOM (half full battery) at the top. Then I proceeded to drive maybe 30 mi downhill, arriving with 40 mi on the GOM, and having about 1/3 battery.

 

[ceshell]

I really appreciate your input and thought! I think I could deal with the range through summer; my biggest concern really is the warnings here that if Nissan changes its policy while I wait out the summer, I somehow end up with a 9 bar rather than a 12 bar. A 12 bar now is going to be far better than a 9 bar in a year (I think). I am in coastal LA area. I commute 15 miles each way at 7:30am (it's not often hot that early) and then 5pm to return (so it'll be warm then). Commute is about an hour- maybe less when I get my carpool stickers (mind you, the carpool lane is not wide open freeway, at least not on the 405.)

 

[Reddy]

Well, again it's your decision, but for me a 30 mi RT commute would be easy in my small town. The one problem is freeway speeds in LA can be extreme (75 mph to dead stop) so I understand your plight. If I had to commute on a 75 mph freeway, then I might get concerned. As it is now, my 10 bar car has trouble with 40 mi on the freeway in the winter time (<20 F) so I don't recommend that on a daily basis. Last winter I even reached VLBW after a concert (35 mi RT) where the temps were close to zero. With a full 100% charge, pre-heating, and running the heater I was able to make it, but it was close, probably less than 5 mi left. But again, that was a special edge case, with extreme cold soaking for 3 hrs during the concert. Also, I know the area very well and had a few emergency options available so I wasn't worried.

Nissan is under court order, which is a sweetheart deal for them, so I wouldn't worry about Nissan changing it's tune. Your 2012 Leaf won't reach the 5 yr warranty until 2017, so you've got some time to decide. Also, given the rapid battery degradation, I highly doubt that Nissan would replace an 8 bar battery with a 9 bar battery if you had another year on the warranty.

Good luck with your decision and your car. It's a great commuter and in-town run about for less than 40-50 mi per day. Once you get the new battery you will be amazed at the change (not just distance, but also increased regeneration braking). Check my signature for some of my road trip stories (which I won't be doing ever again with this battery). My last one was an 1200+ mi vacation down the OR coast last summer.
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14275&p=388565&hilit=oregon#p388565

 

[BakoDuck]

I really appreciate your input and thought! I think I could deal with the range through summer; my biggest concern really is the warnings here that if Nissan changes its policy while I wait out the summer, I somehow end up with a 9 bar rather than a 12 bar. A 12 bar now is going to be far better than a 9 bar in a year (I think). I am in coastal LA area. I commute 15 miles each way at 7:30am (it's not often hot that early) and then 5pm to return (so it'll be warm then). Commute is about an hour- maybe less when I get my carpool stickers (mind you, the carpool lane is not wide open freeway, at least not on the 405.)

@ceshell - can you trickle charge at work or is there a L2 charger nearby? That would certainly give you the necessary current range you need while extending the time needed for a battery replacement.

 

[ceshell]

There is a $2/hr Chargepoint L2 at work; I try to avoid it due to the cost but you are correct in that it can extend my range if things get dicey waiting out the battery; a few months of that might have greater value when factoring the benefits of delaying the replacement.

I made it to work and back today 30 mi RT with 4 charge bars left which is appx 12-16 more miles based on the results I normally get. (I already know to ignore the GOM) So that still puts me still at appx 40+ even with the 9th bar gone. No more hilly drives now that I've learned; that's what the Hyundai's for.

 

[Reddy]

I made it to work and back today 30 mi RT with 4 charge bars left which is appx 12-16 more miles based on the results I normally get. (I already know to ignore the GOM) So that still puts me still at appx 40+ even with the 9th bar gone. No more hilly drives now that I've learned; that's what the Hyundai's for.

You will probably get about 5 mi per bar, again weather dependent. There are exceptions. The 10th bar seems to be pretty thin, while the last bar is worth about double miles. Nissan probably "hid" the extra miles in the last bar so that people wouldn't get stranded. If you have four bars left after your 30 mi RT commute, you can easily squeeze another 20 mi. Just remember, if you ever get really short, just slow down. Range is destroyed above 60 mph. I can get off the freeway with 10 mi on the GOM, and then drive another 5 mi home (at 30 mph) and still have 10 mi on the GOM.

 

[ceshell]

On a nice Sunday in a safe location (with charging stations that you trust nearby, preferably the same route as your commute) drive the car down past the 1st Low Battery Warning (LBW), past the 2nd VLBW, and all the way to Turtle (then stop immediately and get off the road). Measure the miles between each LBW, VLBW, and turtle. I have found 10 mi between LBW & VLBW and another 10 mi after VLBW on my 2011 Leaf. Turtle gives you somewhere around 1/4 to 1/2 mi, just enough to get pulled over safely. Note, this is different with the newer models, and changes dramatically with temperatures and speeds. Most of my driving is in-town at less than 40 mph, so you won't get that at 75 mph.

BTW I'm game to try this. I did try this a week ago, but not quite to this extreme; I took it to LBW near my home. That's where I estimated the 44 miles, because it hit LBW at about 42. I admit I'd never even dreamed that I might be able to get 10 more miles after LBW especially since each bar previously only got me about 3.3. During my hill fiasco this weekend, I started at 11 after a local errand and it ate 6 bars getting to the other side of the hill; I started heading back home on 5 charge bars and was at 2 by the time I hit the top of the hill 9.6 miles away. Heading down the hill trying to find a charger was another 3 miles and I lost the 2nd bar and triggered LBW. It was 3 more miles to the Toyota dealership but all downhill. I don't know if I hit VLBW because I was so busy freaking out and trying to figure out where the hell I could charge it (I'd already tried 3 spots by then and the 4th spot was also out of order) that the car could have told me I'd won a million dollars and I wouldn't have heard it.

You know the ironic thing about the car is that the whole reason I got it was to use the carpool lanes. You know, so I could go fast. Which I'm not supposed to do if I want to cover the distance. ARGH! (Good thing that carpool lanes during rush hour just means "a little faster" rather than "fast" huh?)

 

[Evoforce]

On a nice Sunday in a safe location (with charging stations that you trust nearby, preferably the same route as your commute) drive the car down past the 1st Low Battery Warning (LBW), past the 2nd VLBW, and all the way to Turtle (then stop immediately and get off the road). Measure the miles between each LBW, VLBW, and turtle. I have found 10 mi between LBW & VLBW and another 10 mi after VLBW on my 2011 Leaf. Turtle gives you somewhere around 1/4 to 1/2 mi, just enough to get pulled over safely. Note, this is different with the newer models, and changes dramatically with temperatures and speeds. Most of my driving is in-town at less than 40 mph, so you won't get that at 75 mph.

BTW I'm game to try this. I did try this a week ago, but not quite to this extreme; I took it to LBW near my home. That's where I estimated the 44 miles, because it hit LBW at about 42. I admit I'd never even dreamed that I might be able to get 10 more miles after LBW especially since each bar previously only got me about 3.3. During my hill fiasco this weekend, I started at 11 after a local errand and it ate 6 bars getting to the other side of the hill; I started heading back home on 5 charge bars and was at 2 by the time I hit the top of the hill 9.6 miles away. Heading down the hill trying to find a charger was another 3 miles and I lost the 2nd bar and triggered LBW. It was 3 more miles to the Toyota dealership but all downhill. I don't know if I hit VLBW because I was so busy freaking out and trying to figure out where the hell I could charge it (I'd already tried 3 spots by then and the 4th spot was also out of order) that the car could have told me I'd won a million dollars and I wouldn't have heard it.

You know the ironic thing about the car is that the whole reason I got it was to use the carpool lanes. You know, so I could go fast. Which I'm not supposed to do if I want to cover the distance. ARGH! (Good thing that carpool lanes during rush hour just means "a little faster" rather than "fast" huh?)

For that very last (whole) reason then, get the new battery now and speed away to a smile on your face. You will love the range the new battery gives you in comparison.

 

[Reddy]

.... I don't know if I hit VLBW because I was so busy freaking out and trying to figure out where the hell I could charge it (I'd already tried 3 spots by then and the 4th spot was also out of order) that the car could have told me I'd won a million dollars and I wouldn't have heard it.

Ha, yes I remember the feeling the first time I hit LBW. I was only about a mile from the house, but it was scary. The fun part was picking up my wife afterwards, letting her drive, and not saying anything so she could experience LBW as well. :lol: She freaked out, :twisted: again only about a mile from home.

As others have said, get the new battery immediately if you need it. The good news is that YOU, unlike me, will get one. But, I'd still give it a few more days/weeks, try the VLBW test, and see how your range anxiety dissipates (or doesn't). It's really an individual thing. Another factor is how "safe" you feel around your neighborhood and where you might run out. Personally, I walk and bicycle all over our town and haven't a care in the world. I wouldn't have a problem parking the car and walking home (heck, I don't even carry the emergency L1 trickle cord!). However, in LA once I missed a turn on the freeway, took the next exit, couldn't find a quick u-turn and ended up in someplace that I was scared as hell. I would NEVER push my EV range in such a situation.

 

[ceshell]

As others have said, get the new battery immediately if you need it. The good news is that YOU, unlike me, will get one. But, I'd still give it a few more days/weeks, try the VLBW test, and see how your range anxiety dissipates (or doesn't). It's really an individual thing. Another factor is how "safe" you feel around your neighborhood and where you might run out. Personally, I walk and bicycle all over our town and haven't a care in the world. I wouldn't have a problem parking the car and walking home (heck, I don't even carry the emergency L1 trickle cord!). However, in LA once I missed a turn on the freeway, took the next exit, couldn't find a quick u-turn and ended up in someplace that I was scared as hell. I would NEVER push my EV range in such a situation.

Yeah, when I think about it, I realize there is no way I'm going to drive this thing for two years at reduced capacity (in-service date was Jan 2013 so I actually have until Jan 2018 ) - that just sounds like torture and as previously mentioned, I should enjoy it sooner rather than later! Although I am keen on having it remain usable for as long as possible, it's just a matter of how long can I put up with the range before I just reallllly want to have a nicer driving experience. Others' feedback regarding the less-than-stellar performance of the replacement battery gives me pause and I appreciate the other advice here about at least waiting out the summer if possible, to avoid one summer's degradation on the new one.

I think at the VERY least I should wait until I get my carpool stickers, so that I can see if I lose too much range due to the added speed of the carpool lane (don't laugh, it might actually go faster). Right now I get pretty decent regeneration in traffic on the way home and often gain a bar while driving, finally arriving home 1 h/15 miles later with a net loss of only a single charge bar. Kind of thrilled to hear that the regen performance might improve with the new battery....when I'm going slow enough.

I still don't know if I'm ready for the VLBW test. My neighborhood is safe but then what do you do if you can't get it home - tow it? Maybe I'll try LBW again and ease my way in .

 

[LeftieBiker]

Personally, I think that sub-VLBW driving is for fanatics. ;-) LBW is a good 'floor' for everyday driving, especially on a battery you don't need to preserve. I'd still do the VLBW test once (but not to Turtle mode), just to see what you personally can expect if you need to use it.

 

[cwerdna]

I still don't know if I'm ready for the VLBW test. My neighborhood is safe but then what do you do if you can't get it home - tow it? Maybe I'll try LBW again and ease my way in .

As I said before and others have echoed, you should get Leaf Spy. If you're going to run it low, you may as well see what it looks like on Leaf Spy in terms of gids and in terms of cell imbalance as you get lower and lower.

On my '13 Leaf (also with % SoC display), LBW is not a huge deal to me. However, before I had Leaf Spy, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=388984#p388984 was scary. VLBW on that Leaf at the time sounded at 7-8% on my car's % SoC display.

 

[Reddy]

Personally, I think that sub-VLBW driving is for fanatics. ;-) LBW is a good 'floor' for everyday driving, especially on a battery you don't need to preserve. I'd still do the VLBW test once (but not to Turtle mode), just to see what you personally can expect if you need to use it.

I appreciate the term. While I haven't use VLBW more than a handful of times, it is useful to know how much you can get if you absolutely need it. I'm a boundaries person, always testing, then backing off. If I think hard about it, let me count the times: 1) 1st 100 mi test at 1 yr, 2) around town to scare the wife, 3) 85 mi test at 30 F, 4) 2nd 100 mi test at 2 yr (hmmm, I'm probably done with those), and 5) 85 mi freeway trip out in the middle of ****ing nowhere (Pasco, WA to QC station in Arlington OR)...... can't think of another, Two of those were to turtle, but driving around in circles in the neighborhood. Yup, I'm starting to sound a bit fanatical. :lol:

Yes, it's a problem as to where to test VLBW to Turtle. You need a couple of options, maybe a few friends or charging stations in a few blocks. Put a good heavy gauge extension cord in with the trickle charger, just in case you need more distance. If you hit Turtle, DO NOT turn off the vehicle unless you are safely parked FOR A GOOD LONG WHILE. After Turtle is reached, the car will not go back into drive if you turn it off, only neutral. You might have to push. Finally, after reaching Turtle, the car will NOT go back into drive until AFTER you charge back above VLBW, which takes a long time using the L1 trickle charger, probably a couple of hours. I haven't tried it, but others on the board have reported this.

Charge as quickly as possible at this point, DO NOT leave the battery at this low charge level. Based on Plugshare, Santa Monica looks like a good possible area. If that's not close, locate something nearby and give it a shot. Ideally, it would be nice to have a quick charger so you can get going again, but I just used home as my circling base. Yes, you might need to call a tow or arrange for assistance from friends, neighbors, or even a stranger. Remember, it's an experience, not something you want to repeat, and certainly not in an unsafe area.

 

[TimLee]

... I still don't know if I'm ready for the VLBW test. My neighborhood is safe but then what do you do if you can't get it home - tow it? Maybe I'll try LBW again and ease my way in .

First get LEAF Spy.
And do your first observations of LBW to VLBW and then to Turtle with the LEAF parked in your garage.
Run the defroster on max fan speed and temp set on 90F.
Car will draw about 4.5 kW like this.
And you can observe with no risk of getting stranded driving.

I once unintentionally hit Turtle about 500 feet from my garage.
Just barely made it up steep hill.
With only 20 kW it could barely do 5 mph up the hill.
The LEAF has 0.2 kWh or less when it Turtles.
You don't go far on 0.2 kWh.

 

[ceshell]

You people are CRAZY with these tests!!! But I totally get it. I like the idea of doing it in the garage but Reddy's field test would provide a sense of actual miles available at the various warning levels rather than extrapolating based on the remaining kWh. I can possibly do the field test (to VLBW, not turtle; I'm not that brave yet) by driving around the block repeatedly in the area where there is a free L2 or maybe even a quick charge. I'm going to have to mentally prepare myself for this! There is a quick charger at the Nissan dealer but I don't think I want to go slumming there.

I actually looked into LeafSpy from the moment I got the car, due to the information posted in the forums. I didn't download it yet because they don't have a Lite version for the iPhone but it's clear that it's an invaluable tool and I'll need to invest. It's going onto my agenda; I'll read the thread to learn more about where to get the scan tool.

Man, this thing isn't just a car, is it? It's like a full time job!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I doubt the computer has been reset or it wouldn't have been a 2 car loser when you bought it.

As I understand it, it takes a few weeks for all the lost bars to get re-lost after a BMS reset. Thus, if a wholesaler reset it and it was then at the dealership for a couple of weeks, two bars could have been lost, with two more not real but not yet dropped...

that can actually stretch to a few months if you are not a heavy driver. My "Vin 222" blog details a Washingtonian who bought a car that a Southern Californian had reported as a 3 bar loser here. She got the car and it had 12 bars but it lost a bar a month taking all Summer to get back to its 8 bar state


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html

 

[sub3marathonman]

If that 30 mile range isn't at freeway speeds, or up big hills, you may actually have a 7 bar car.

I have a 7-bar-car, and might be able to add some data.

As an 8-bar-car I did an "inadvertent range test," which means I got lost a bit along the way, and went 52 miles before it was just going to hit LBW.

Today, I did a 70 mile round-trip excursion. OK, with ten minutes of 120V charge after 10 miles, and then a QC after 41 miles or so. The GOM indicated 15 miles left (so no LBW, in ECO mode), but when plugging into the QC, it indicated 42% remaining charge. So I could have gone a fair bit further than the 41 miles, but yes, it would have been sweating every extra mile. I drive extremely steady, not ever wanting to speed up or slow down, and usually able to keep a top speed of 48 mph. Today I even tried to keep it down to 45 mph as I knew it was going to be close. When it had 8 bars I maintained 52 mph, so yes, I am slowing down to try to save the range. Of course, running the A/C, or really even the radio, is forbidden. Many people have observed, as I have, that as the capacity diminishes the GOM shifts more and more of the remaining capacity downward and under LBW.

As far as LeafSpy, I am wanting to get the real program, and will at some point, (and mainly because the real program will show tire pressures too), but for now I'm still using the free version. I'm using it with an Android Tablet, which even if somebody had to buy one should be pretty reasonable on ebay. The free LeafSpy version shows you the Ahr and % charge remaining. I have 36.06 ah and the HX just went to 54% today for people who want to compare. It seems to be dropping by about 0.03 ah / day, or about 1 ah / month. I bought this OBDII adapter: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012BZN96S?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00 and I bought this extension for the OBDII port, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EECXAY8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s02 and they both seem to be working fine.

I bought the 2011 LEAF new in Florida in 3/2012, so I have until 2017 to claim the warranty. I am included in the settlement though, and legally qualify for a brand new battery. However, even if it was just the replacement to 9 bars warranty, given Nissan's actions, and the difficulty of putting together a 9-bar pack, the work and significant labor charges to change it, and just having it drop to 8-bars after a few weeks, I'd gamble that Nissan would continue to replace with a new pack. The only way I could see that changing is if there was a battery shortage due to some unforeseen disaster.

I am in a situation where I can live even with a 20 mile range if I had to. It isn't that bad yet though, so as others have suggested, I am going to wait out the hot Florida summer, at least, and see what happens later in the year. As such too, I'm starting to close in on the 60,000 miles limit to the warranty, so I'll have to do something within the next 6000 miles or so.

As a side note, I brought the 8-bar LEAF in for the battery check last year. While the settlement was in effect. I got the full 5 Stars with absolutely no comment either from me nor the dealership about any warranty. He asked how I liked the car, and I said it was great, but it did seem like the range was down a bit. He didn't say anything, and I drove away.