If you knew then.. what you know now....

[coach81]

Smart financial decision Gold..

 

[tesleaf]

I only got my Leaf after getting the basic info from this forum.
I bought a used 2015.

My DDD (daily driving distance) is 25miles.
Even in winter when battery efficiency is compromised, I will be OK for a many years.
In a couple of years, there will be used TM3 (Tesla Model 3) available at reasonable prices and there will be many more choices of EV with longer ranges at reasonable prices.
A Longer range EV will be nice because my wife and I won't have to drive her gas car when we have to drive farther than my LEAF range on weekend.
So that's the plan. Drive my 24* kwh leaf until I can get a 250 mile range EV for cheap.

*corrected.

 

[cwerdna]

I bought a used 2015.
...
Drive my 30 kwh leaf

Confused. 30 kWh Leafs didn't arrive until model year '16 with the SV and SL trim. Then, near the end of '16 model year, we got the '16 "S 30": https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price. For most of '16 model year, S was 24 kWh, like all the ones that came before it.

And, your sig currently says you have "2015 Leaf S w/ QC".

 

[tesleaf]

I bought a used 2015.
...
Drive my 30 kwh leaf

Confused. 30 kWh Leafs didn't arrive until model year '16 with the SV and SL trim. Then, near the end of '16 model year, we got the '16 "S 30": https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price. For most of '16 model year, S was 24 kWh, like all the ones that came before it.

And, your sig currently says you have "2015 Leaf S w/ QC".

My mistake... 24kwh battery...

 

[lilly]

They continue to design and manufacture battery packs with short term (less than 10 year) planned obsolescence as a desirable "feature". Not impressed...

Well, you can have an active battery management system like the tesla and the battery will last longer, BUT the tesla's system has "vampire drain" which is a horrible waste of energy if you;
1. go on vacation a lot or business trips
2. have multiple vehicles and don't drive your ev every day.

if nissan makes sure their salespersons are more knowledgeable about ev's and market their car better so that they sell more, then there should be an active aftermarket battery supplier. however, sales are dismal compared to tesla model 3. my saleslady didn't know anything about the car. in contrast, when i bought the tesla, the salesman knew everything about the car and was very enthusiastic. nissan leaf's marketing sucks.

the nissan leaf is more driver friendly and feels more like a car. i actually like driving the leaf more than my tesla. i get more oohs and ahhs from my friends over the tesla because it looks sexier, but again, nissan marketing sucks. they could have gave it a more sexier design, but didn't. seriously, the tesla is driver hostile compared to the leaf. it has no speedometer! just a tiny speed display on an lcd screen off to the side, not in your field of vision. i'm actually designing and aftermarket speedometer for the tesla right now. i have a 3d printer and am working on it. the model s has no rear seat cup holder and the model 3 has no speedometer. seriously.

unless you need autopilot, are a speed demon and need longer range, the leaf is actually more driver friendly than the tesla model 3. and it costs less, too.

 

[alozzy]

If nissan makes sure their salespersons are more knowledgeable about ev's and market their car better so that they sell more, then there should be an active aftermarket battery supplier. however, sales are dismal compared to tesla model 3. my saleslady didn't know anything about the car. in contrast, when i bought the tesla, the salesman knew everything about the car and was very enthusiastic. nissan leaf's marketing sucks.

The dirty, unfortunate truth is that the traditional car manufacturers don't want to sell EVs. Until that changes, the dealership sales people will continue to be clueless

 

[cwerdna]

If nissan makes sure their salespersons are more knowledgeable about ev's and market their car better so that they sell more, then there should be an active aftermarket battery supplier. however, sales are dismal compared to tesla model 3. my saleslady didn't know anything about the car. in contrast, when i bought the tesla, the salesman knew everything about the car and was very enthusiastic. nissan leaf's marketing sucks.

The dirty, unfortunate truth is that the traditional car manufacturers don't want to sell EVs. Until that changes, the dealership sales people will continue to be clueless

And, unfortunately, in the US, due to state franchise laws all over the place, in many places, automakers can't own dealerships (Google for tesla franchise laws).

Non-plugin vehicles make up almost all US auto sales (BEV + PHEV combined take rate from https://www.hybridcars.com/june-2018-hybrid-cars-sales-dashboard/ don't even make up 2%). Outside of states with strong EV incentives ($ or stuff like HOV stickers), It's a LOT easier for a dealer to sell ICEVs than to sell a PHEV or esp. a BEV that has a bunch of considerations that are unique to that vehicle type.... so the vicious cycle continues. Tesla doesn't sell any ICEVs.

Then you have turnover at auto dealers and how few salespeople at a mostly ICEV dealer actually drive an EV...

 

[johnlocke]

Most dealers aren't interested in selling BEV's because most of their profit comes from after-sales support. Those service bays are there for a reason. Some dealers make 80% of their profits from the service department. BEV's just don't have many service items or maintenance requirements. There's no oil filter, air filter, gas filter or belts to replace. No spark plugs, ignition coils or associated wiring either. No pollution controls to test or repair or exhaust systems either. The dealership exists to provide service and if there isn't any service requirement, there isn't any reason for the dealer. Why would any sane dealer cannibalize ICE sales for BEV sales?

 

[NoReleaf]

The dirty, unfortunate truth is that the traditional car manufacturers don't want to sell EVs. Until that changes, the dealership sales people will continue to be clueless

That is something of a match for my brief experience. I'm not sure if it applies to all Nissan dealerships. I was getting callbacks from some of them for weeks after I'd already leased where I did, but the one I picked was definitely not the best choice.

My recent car acquisition was a relatively quick decision, mostly because it had to be. It came down to deciding between a 2018 Leaf and a 2018 Volt. In spite of my experience with the Nissan dealership, which was most definitely not very interested in selling the Leaf to anyone as far as I could tell, everything turned on the test drives. Although the Chevy dealer had shown knowledge of and enthusiasm for the Volt, and had even offered to let me take the Volt for the test, keep it overnight, and return it the next day (which I was looking forward to), I test drove the Leaf first, and was allowed to drive it home and back and get to see how the plug-in thing would actually work at my house. First time in an EV, totally comfortable. Liked it a lot. Salesman accompanying me was hardly knowledgable, but at least he was friendly. Then the test drive of the Volt turned out to be different than expected. Salesman was harried now, seemed annoyed, and the drive was shorter on more congested roads. Tested the plug-in thing at home with the Volt, too, fine, but I didn't like the way the car felt. I would have preferred a longer test drive on some open roads to make a more balanced decision, but there was no time to hem and haw.

I'm not sure what to make of Nissan the company. The reviews here tend to be negative. I sure like the Leaf, but I am apprehensive about how fully Nissan stands behind it. The fact that I am "only" leasing doesn't make me less apprehensive. But if the lease arrangement gives me the option of going to another dealership with any questions and concerns I might have, I like that part.

Why would any sane dealer cannibalize ICE sales for BEV sales?

Not that I question anything else you say, but I don't think that making an effort to sell a BEV to someone specifically looking for one cannibalizes ICE sales. I'm not sure if many people are on the fence between those two choices. Someone less impatient than I would have walked away from the relative ignorance and indifference of the dealership. That would be ZERO sales.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Not that I question anything else you say, but I don't think that making an effort to sell a BEV to someone specifically looking for one cannibalizes ICE sales. I'm not sure if many people are on the fence between those two choices. Someone less impatient than I would have walked away from the relative ignorance and indifference of the dealership. That would be ZERO sales.

You'd think, eh? But humans aren't big on rational thinking, and car salescreatures carry a VERY limited skill set - how to pressure a vict, er, customer into buying that day. Eventually they do notice that most Leaf buyers and lessees don't buy expensive, profitable service contracts and extended warranties, and they know that they can't milk them for as much service as an ICEV purchaser. So they only want to sell a Leaf specifically when Nissan is offering THEM incentives based on monthly sales. That's why you should only buy or lease a Leaf on the last day of the month, if possible.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm not sure what to make of Nissan the company. The reviews here tend to be negative. I sure like the Leaf, but I am apprehensive about how fully Nissan stands behind it. The fact that I am "only" leasing doesn't make me less apprehensive. But if the lease arrangement gives me the option of going to another dealership with any questions and concerns I might have, I like that part.

Negative? Hmm... sorry the board might seem that way to you. I dunno.

FWIW, I'm on my 4th Nissan. I've previously bought a Maxima and 350Z new. The Z I had the longest from late 03 to mid-2011. I leased my 1st Leaf and own a used one now. Nissan reliability (depending on the model) is all over the map and not up to Toyota/Lexus standards. But, I am still somewhat of a fan of the company. If I were unhappy w/their vehicles and the company, I wouldn't have continued acquiring Nissans.

Sure, there have been some missteps with the Leaf (some of which I've had to ummm... educate a few folks on here) and we sure wish they'd get a 200+ mile (on EPA test) EV out there (hopefully) with battery thermal management more quickly... On the flip side, if they were hitting delays, I can see a method/reason to their schedule.

Doesn't matter if you lease or buy in terms of going to other Nissan dealers for service. But yeah, if you don't like the car or company when your lease is up, turn it back in.

Most dealers aren't interested in selling BEV's because most of their profit comes from after-sales support. Those service bays are there for a reason. Some dealers make 80% of their profits from the service department. BEV's just don't have many service items or maintenance requirements. There's no oil filter, air filter, gas filter or belts to replace. No spark plugs, ignition coils or associated wiring either. No pollution controls to test or repair or exhaust systems either.

Hmmm... well, it seems Nissan probably threw the dealer service depts a bone with the stupid way too often brake fluid change intervals and the annual "required" battery check/report. Perhaps in-cabin air filters are another bone. Long ago, cars (at least non-luxury ones) didn't have cabin air filters. My 02 Maxima had two but I'm 90% sure my 04 350Z didn't have any.

For gas filter, I don't think I've ever had that changed too often. Re: belts, I believe all Toyota hybrids introduced from model year 2010 onward have no belts either. It first started with gen 3 Prius (2010 model year) and progressed to their other hybrids over time. My 06 Prius has a whopping 1 belt that connects the engine to the belt driven engine water pump. The went electric on the gen 3 Prius --> no more belts.

Spark plugs on modern cars last a long time. IIRC, the spark plug interval on my 06 Prius is somewhere past 100K miles. I'm still on the original plugs due to low mileage on the car. I was still on the original plugs on my Z and Maxima when I sold them since I hadn't reached the interval. Can't recall having to change ignition coils or spark plug wires on Japanese cars I've owned. Maybe I didn't keep them for long enough/enough miles?

I've never gone to a dealer for a smog test. I have yet to visit a dealer for exhaust system repairs.

I will say that EVs, PHEVs and full hybrids will reduce by far the amount of brake jobs (pads, shoes, rotors, etc.) So, there's another part of the lower service revenue. My Leaf (~62K miles) and Prius (~82K miles) are still on original brakes. Priuses w/past 100K miles on original brakes aren't unusual.

 

[coach81]

I love Nissan.. I am a loyal Nissan customer.. from my very first Sentra all those years ago (paid $6,000 for it, total!!!!), through the Frontier, and the most resent Altima, the minivans.. and now my beloved LEAF!!!

*Knock on wood* they have all be very reliable, wonderful vehicles.

 

[specialgreen]

I had never bought a new car before, and I don't expect to again (I bought 6-year old cars and drove them for 6 years, which I repeated four times over). But I wanted an EV, and the $10k discount + $7.5k tax incentive made a new '17 Leaf cheaper than a used '15. I basically paid about the new price of a Kia Rio, so yes, I'd do that again in a heartbeat! Almost 2 years on, I could sell the '17 Leaf for $1k-$2k less than what I paid.

Regarding the battery, I figured that I'd save about $700/year on gas, so if the battery needed replacing just one day after the 8-year warranty expired, then I'd only be spending the "gas money" which I had already saved previously. Compared to other EVs, Leaf battery replacement cost is bad. Compared to a gas car, it's not bad. Imagine the headline: "Shocking truth: in worst-case battery degradation scenario, Nissan Leaf may cost you as much as your gas car!"

On a more practical level, would I recommend it to a new buyer without those discount/rebate incentives? Right now, I'd look at cars with TMS, like the Bolt, Kona Electric, E-Niro or Soul . The new Leaf is nice, but if Nissan is going to forego TMS, then the price for the 60kwhr version needs to be 20% lower than 60+ kwhr EVs like the E-Niro.

That said, given my modest mileage needs (10k/yr, all urban, mostly <50 miles/day) if my Leaf died today and the warranty somehow didn't cover it, I'd either buy an 11-bar 2013 for $8k; or maybe a 2012 Volt for $10k.

 

[johnlocke]

The dirty, unfortunate truth is that the traditional car manufacturers don't want to sell EVs. Until that changes, the dealership sales people will continue to be clueless

That is something of a match for my brief experience. I'm not sure if it applies to all Nissan dealerships. I was getting callbacks from some of them for weeks after I'd already leased where I did, but the one I picked was definitely not the best choice.

My recent car acquisition was a relatively quick decision, mostly because it had to be. It came down to deciding between a 2018 Leaf and a 2018 Volt. In spite of my experience with the Nissan dealership, which was most definitely not very interested in selling the Leaf to anyone as far as I could tell, everything turned on the test drives. Although the Chevy dealer had shown knowledge of and enthusiasm for the Volt, and had even offered to let me take the Volt for the test, keep it overnight, and return it the next day (which I was looking forward to), I test drove the Leaf first, and was allowed to drive it home and back and get to see how the plug-in thing would actually work at my house. First time in an EV, totally comfortable. Liked it a lot. Salesman accompanying me was hardly knowledgable, but at least he was friendly. Then the test drive of the Volt turned out to be different than expected. Salesman was harried now, seemed annoyed, and the drive was shorter on more congested roads. Tested the plug-in thing at home with the Volt, too, fine, but I didn't like the way the car felt. I would have preferred a longer test drive on some open roads to make a more balanced decision, but there was no time to hem and haw.

I'm not sure what to make of Nissan the company. The reviews here tend to be negative. I sure like the Leaf, but I am apprehensive about how fully Nissan stands behind it. The fact that I am "only" leasing doesn't make me less apprehensive. But if the lease arrangement gives me the option of going to another dealership with any questions and concerns I might have, I like that part.

Why would any sane dealer cannibalize ICE sales for BEV sales?

Not that I question anything else you say, but I don't think that making an effort to sell a BEV to someone specifically looking for one cannibalizes ICE sales. I'm not sure if many people are on the fence between those two choices. Someone less impatient than I would have walked away from the relative ignorance and indifference of the dealership. That would be ZERO sales.

The Dealer trains the salesmen. If he doesn't spend any time or effort on educating the salesman about BEV's then the salesman is far more likely to steer the customer to an ICE and disparage the BEV. If you want to buy a BEV, you have to be persistent about it. A lot of potential Leaf sales become Versa or Sentra sales instead or get upsold into an Altima. No need to worry about charging stations or range anxiety with a ICE. No dangerous high voltage or battery fires either. It's a lot easier for the salesman to maneuver a customer than you think. If you walk in specifically to buy a Leaf, you can do that. If you just want to find out about the Leaf, the salesman will redirect you almost every time. His job is to sell you a car that day, not to educate you. He'll try and sell you something you're familiar with because he needs that sale today and he knows that he has only one chance to do it.

 

[cwerdna]

+100 on what johnlocke just said.

Sales critter won't get paid a commission for educating but he/she will if they makes a sale. Much easier to sell something that people walking in are familiar with and that the sales critter is also familiar with.

 

[GerryAZ]

I put my deposit down in 2010 to be in line to order a new LEAF as soon as possible. I started talking to dealers in the Phoenix area as my ordering time approached because the procedure required me to select a dealer; deal with home charging infrastructure; place order through selected dealer; wait for car to be built, shipped from Japan, and delivered to dealer; test drive car; and then make final purchase decision (in that order). There are numerous Nissan dealers within original 2011 driving range from my house, although some were not LEAF certified when I originally talked to them. I avoided one dealer due to a bad experience when shopping for a pickup 20+ years before, but talked to all of the other LEAF-certified dealers relatively close to my house. It became apparent that one dealer was really serious about selling and supporting LEAFs while the others were interested in selling me a car, but did not know much about them. I chose to support the knowledgeable dealer and placed my order through their salesman who already had one on order for personal use. He was driving his LEAF by the time my car arrived so he could explain all of the features/limitations of it. I went back to the same salesman when I had to replace the 2011 because the dealership treated me fairly through sales and service (including battery replacement under warranty in one day--dropped it off in the morning and picked it up in the middle of the afternoon). This dealership still has sales staff and service technicians that specialize in LEAFs.

I am posting this to offer a different perspective than some recent posts and to suggest that those shopping for any EV call around to find dealers that are truly interested in selling/supporting them.

 

[Dooglas]

I'm not sure what to make of Nissan the company. The reviews here tend to be negative. I sure like the Leaf, but I am apprehensive about how fully Nissan stands behind it. The fact that I am "only" leasing doesn't make me less apprehensive. But if the lease arrangement gives me the option of going to another dealership with any questions and concerns I might have, I like that part.

Negative? Hmm... sorry the board might seem that way to you. I dunno.

I don't think I would say that about the board as a whole, but there are some truly virulent Leaf critics who post here regularly. Personally, I have owned and driven a Leaf for about 6 years now (I'm on my 2nd). I am satisfied with the car, and have no criticisms about the support I have received from my dealer. It seems to me that many of the criticisms I read here of the Leaf come from those who start out with some misunderstandings about the capabilities and longevity of the vehicle. Like any other vehicle (or any device), your needs/expectations and the capabilities of the vehicle have to be a match for one another.

 

[Baltneu]

I never thought to ask the dealer when buying a Leaf about how many trained technicians they have. As it turned out, my dealership has one, and all the other dealers in my county also have one. That info might have soured me a little because when I learned that I said "what if the tech is out sick or did not come in that day"? Well, I lived the tale.......on 2 occasions when I brought my car in, the tech was out. Also, he does not work on weekends. I learned the latter the hard way, made an appt online, no where did it say the Leaf tech not in on weekends. Also another time, he was working on another car, so I had to wait until he was done with that job. Now that the EV Connect is working, I must say the car runs great. It ran great from the beginning, no maintenance issues. I have over 2K miles on the car now.

In reference to the EV Connect application, I wish it would monitor the tire pressure. I think that would be a good additional function of the application.

Edit: I understand about having one tech due to low sales of Leafs.

 

[NoReleaf]

Negative? Hmm... sorry the board might seem that way to you. I dunno.

I don't mean scathingly negative. Just the sort of things you would expect from... well, it's sort of, very distantly, like a baseball blog. Everyone is a fan of the team - and more or less highly critical of the team most of the time. Someone unfamiliar with the American sports fan would find that appallingly negative. Criticism is by its nature negative. People who are fans of the Leaf and have a lot of experience with it know its flaws and limitations and have something to say about what Nissan could have/should have/should still do better. I pick up on that, perhaps because that is just the sort of stuff those new to the Leaf need to know. That's all I mean. And no one's even harping on firing the manager and calling players "crap" (and worse).

 

[NoReleaf]

I love Nissan.. I am a loyal Nissan customer

Good to hear. It's where I want to be down the road. We'll see. I don't like to shop around and hop around. I like finding products and companies I can trust, and sticking with them.